There must have been death in Paradise even before mans fall...

[Assyrian]

Something else too. Satan was once good and became bad. Death was never good. Satan in no way disproved anything I said, only that good can become bad. Show me that death went from good to bad.

The alternative is that God created something that was bad his own worst enemy.

In regard to death. God did not create death, death was introduced because of Man's rebellion. You still have to show that death is good if created by God.

Didn't God create everything? And Isn't everything God creates good?

Death may have been introduced because of man's rebellion (I would argue about what type of death but lets assume it is physical death for now). Even so man's rebellion did not cause death. Death was the result of what God did after man rebelled. It is the physical nature of our flesh and blood bodies, its perishability, that leads to death. This is the nature that God created, either from the original creation or by a direct act of creation after the fall. It was God who subject nature to futility, not nature or any natural being Rom 8:20.

I also hope that I am not coming off in the wrong way in this debate. This is a sweet topic and worthy of discussion. Booyah

 

[Ben12]

I believe there are two Adams in Genesis(same man but changed); one made after God’s image (spirit) and one who God changed to a living soul and later carnal flesh.

Gen 1:26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Then in the next chapter and who how short or long this period is:
Gen. 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Then we get the deep sleep:
Gen: 2:21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 3:6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat

 

[Ben12]

The alternative is that God created something that was bad his own worst enemy.

Didn't God create everything? And Isn't everything God creates good?

Death may have been introduced because of man's rebellion (I would argue about what type of death but lets assume it is physical death for now). Even so man's rebellion did not cause death. Death was the result of what God did after man rebelled. It is the physical nature of our flesh and blood bodies, its perishability, that leads to death. This is the nature that God created, either from the original creation or by a direct act of creation after the fall. It was God who subject nature to futility, not nature or any natural being Rom 8:20.

God created the tree of GOOD and EVIL?

 

[Ben12]

Adam died when he partook of the fruit in the garden; he did not die physically until he was 930 years old. (Gen. 5.5) He died spiritually. A dead man cannot hear, see, touch, feel, etc. That is especially true of a spiritual dead man.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[ArmyMatt]

In regard to the Fathers, get the book "Genesis, Creation, and Early Man" by Fr Seraphim Rose, I don't have it with me, but he has some awesome quotes about our origins. And I'm pretty sure that this is the consensus.

In regard to death, you are right God makes all things good. Death is bad. Therefore God did not create death. If our bodies were gonna die anyway, why would He warn Adam and Eve of the Tree in the first place? And why would Christ come to destroy death's hold on us?

 

[Mallon]

David Snoke, himself an ID advocate, has written an excellent treatment of death and Genesis here, for those patient enough to read:
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2004/PSCF6-04Snoke.pdf

 

[Melethiel]

In regard to the Fathers, get the book "Genesis, Creation, and Early Man" by Fr Seraphim Rose, I don't have it with me, but he has some awesome quotes about our origins. And I'm pretty sure that this is the consensus.

In regard to death, you are right God makes all things good. Death is bad. Therefore God did not create death. If our bodies were gonna die anyway, why would He warn Adam and Eve of the Tree in the first place? And why would Christ come to destroy death's hold on us?

Personally, I don't care for Seraphim Rose all that much (hey, he did have some pretty odd ideas, and is far from being the Orthodox spokesman), nor do I have the ability to go out and buy a book. If you're going to bring something into a debate like "the Fathers agree that...," you have to be able to back it up.

 

[Rut]

In regard to death, you are right God makes all things good. Death is bad. Therefore God did not create death. If our bodies were gonna die anyway, why would He warn Adam and Eve of the Tree in the first place? And why would Christ come to destroy death's hold on us?

If You all think that was meant to be that we should die can you explain this questions for me please? I can`t see any logical for that God warned Adam and Eve that they should die if they eat of the three of good and bad.
I have always thought that was our punishment Romans 6:23

 

[Assyrian]

God created the tree of GOOD and EVIL?

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil I think.

In regard to death, you are right God makes all things good. Death is bad. Therefore God did not create death.

Except that the bible says God created all things, not just all things good. Col 1:16 For by him (Christ) allthings were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--allthings were created through him and for him.

If our bodies were gonna die anyway, why would He warn Adam and Eve of the Tree in the first place? And why would Christ come to destroy death's hold on us?

Before they ate of the tree of knowledge, they were in the garden weren't they? That was where the tree of life was. The bible does not say god changed their bodies so they would grow old and die. It says God sent them away from the tee of life so they would not live forever.

 

[Rut]

Quote:
Before they ate of the tree of knowledge, they were in the garden weren't they? That was where the tree of life was. The bible does not say god changed their bodies so they would grow old and die. It says God sent them away from the tee of life so they would not live forever.

That was after they have sinned.
The science can`t understand our body.Why?
The science know that our body can reproduce and renew itself when they body need it.This can continue forever but it doesn`t and that can`t the science understand.They are saying that under the right condition we can live forever

 

[Assyrian]

Unfortunately it is our cellular repair and regeneration mechanisms that go out of control and cause cancers. Limiting the number of time a cell can regenerate helps prevent cells going rogue, most of the time, but at the cost of our bodies slowly wearing out.