There is NO risk to me if I am wrong about "certain" doctrinal positions.

[SabbathBlessings]

If I observed the Saturday sabbath just because others thought that I should, it would make me a hypocrite because I would be doing it just to please those who believe in it.

I would be more concerned what God thinks, He is the one who personally wrote the Sabbath commandment with His own finger.

 

[Albion]

Me keeping the Sabbath holy has nothing to do with the SDA church and has everything to do with loving God with all my heart and wanting to obey Him becuase He asked...God did not just give the SDA church the 4th commandment.

But yet you choose to be a member of the SDA church rather than another Sabbath-keeping church, and in so doing you adhere to all the other teachings of the SDA church, some of which are considerably more controversial than the Saturday Sabbath.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

But yet you choose to be a member of the SDA church rather than another Sabbath-keeping church, and in so doing you adhere to all the other teachings of the SDA church, some of which are considerably more controversial than the Saturday Sabbath.

This thread is not about me. We should probably stay on topic.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

While it is certainly an error to be a religious hypocrite, I wonder if you've gone too far the other direction from this. As Christ said, who lights a lamp and hides it under a basket? Our religion is the salvation and hope of the world, so while there certainly nothing admirable about parading ourselves in a holier than thou manner it's encumbent upon us to live in a way that is markedly set apart from the world and undeniably religious.

I don't hide the fact that I am a Christian believer. Before I retired, everyone knew it. But I felt that I was there to do the job to the best of my ability and to reserve my preaching to the church pulpit when it was my turn to take a church service. But if anyone asked me a question about my faith, I would not hesitate to give them my answer, as long as it didn't interfere with the job I was doing. At one stage I was a Family Court registrar working alongside the judge. One day we had to go to the local mental health facility where those under treatment needed a court order to be released back into the community. At lunchtime, the judge and I went to lunch at the hospital cafeteria. She knew I was a Christian, and she revealed to me that she was Catholic and seeking to become more committed to her faith. We had a very pleasant conversation about Christian things, and then went back to work after the lunch was over. Even though I am a charismatic calvinist, I never questioned her faith but accepted her as she was - a sincere Christian seeking to become a better one. And I never preached to her. We had a great working relationship during the time we worked together in the court, and when I left the Family Court to become a Victim Advisor in another area of the court, she was sad to lose me. So, relationships are more important in winning souls for Christ than the pedantics of doctrine.

 

[pasifika]

Me keeping the Sabbath holy has nothing to do with the SDA church and has everything to do with loving God with all my heart and wanting to obey Him becuase He asked. My post that you responded to has nothing to do with me and has everything to do with scripture that was posted and following the Word of God. God did not just give the SDA church the 4th commandment. Hopefully something to consider.

The Sabbath commandment in the law is not a stand alone command but it's fulfillment comes by keeping other commandments as well ie you shall not lie, adultery, murder, etc so if you claim that you keep the Sabbath commandment then by your own admission you also keep the rest of the commandments in other words you reach "perfection" like Jesus..James 2:10...if anyone stumbled at one point in the law is guilty of BREAKING ALL of it...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I would be more concerned what God thinks, He is the one who personally wrote the Sabbath commandment with His own finger.

There is nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments. But they failed to achieve justification before God. The problem is that no one is able to keep them perfectly from their youth up. The Scripture says that just one infraction is equivalent to breaching the whole Law. Many were able to keep the Commandments as written, but just outwardly. Jesus said that anyone who looked at a woman with lust was guilty of adultery even if they didn't go ahead and do the actual act. He also said that if a person hated someone it was equivalent to murder even if they did not actually kill anyone. Even the attitude of trying to keep up with the Joneses is equal to the sin of coveting. Just saying anything like, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is equal to taking the Lord's name in vain. Telling just a little white lie is the same is bearing false witness, and taking an office pen home is the same as stealing.

A person can be perfect in his conduct at church, but the moment he sees another member receive preferential treatment from the leadership and thinks, "I should have been chosen for that!" breaks the Law through jealousy.

So, you can say that you keep the Ten Commandments perfectly, and my reaction would be, "Yeah...right!" So, if your acceptance with God depends on your ability to keep the Ten Commandments, you might be shocked at the judgment when it is revealed that you backed the wrong horse.

 

[Fervent]

I don't hide the fact that I am a Christian believer. Before I retired, everyone knew it. But I felt that I was there to do the job to the best of my ability and to reserve my preaching to the church pulpit when it was my turn to take a church service. But if anyone asked me a question about my faith, I would not hesitate to give them my answer, as long as it didn't interfere with the job I was doing. At one stage I was a Family Court registrar working alongside the judge. One day we had to go to the local mental health facility where those under treatment needed a court order to be released back into the community. At lunchtime, the judge and I went to lunch at the hospital cafeteria. She knew I was a Christian, and she revealed to me that she was Catholic and seeking to become more committed to her faith. We had a very pleasant conversation about Christian things, and then went back to work after the lunch was over. Even though I am a charismatic calvinist, I never questioned her faith but accepted her as she was - a sincere Christian seeking to become a better one. And I never preached to her. We had a great working relationship during the time we worked together in the court, and when I left the Family Court to become a Victim Advisor in another area of the court, she was sad to lose me. So, relationships are more important in winning souls for Christ than the pedantics of doctrine.

Ah, I misunderstood. Though I'm not sure pedantics of doctrine are less important than relationships, simply important in a different way. Not everyone is called to be an evangelist, and teachers and prophets who are not careful about the pedantics are liable to sew discord or to enable permissiveness.

 

[RDKirk]

Let's see which boxes I can tick here:
I never give anyone a reason to criticise me about the genuineness of my faith. I have only one wife, am very self controlled, respected by my work colleagues and fellow church members, ready to welcome guests, very competent to teach, don't drink alcohol, never violent, the type of person that children and dogs can have confidence in, content with my income, and my daughter respects me fully and sees me as a totally genuine Christian believer.

I don't have to be overtly religious to have those character attributes. Perhaps my work colleague expected a church elder to have a "holier than thou" religious aura around them like the "spare tyre" haloes that artists' impressions of Jesus and the Apostles had. I think she was intrigued that I conducted myself at work as a committed colleague who concentrated on the job rather than preaching religion at work.

It seems to me that you did act like a Christian elder, but not like one of the Pharisees that Jesus criticized.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Ah, I misunderstood. Though I'm not sure pedantics of doctrine are less important than relationships, simply important in a different way. Not everyone is called to be an evangelist, and teachers and prophets who are not careful about the pedantics are liable to sew discord or to enable permissiveness.

I think it is important to establish a relationship first. People read us before they read the Bible. We often pass by someone preaching on the street corner and not stop to listen to what he has to say because he is a stranger to us. And as many of us know, we tend to avoid talking to the Christian zealot who spends more time preaching religion to others than actually doing his job. I read G F Dempster's book, "Finding Men For Christ", in which he was a Baptist minister in the 1930s, who usually wore a clerical collar. He worked with a welfare mission involved in going out into London's East End to seek lost souls for Christ. What he did was to take off his minister's clothes and put on the same old clothes those who were lining up looking for work in the docks. He would strike up a conversation, find out their story and strike up a relationship with them. Often, after giving them a good meal, and getting them a warm bed, he would share Christ with them. What won many of these unfortunate souls over was that he did not come to them as a minister, but as one of them, prepared to wait in line with them in the freezing temperatures, and even take on a job unloading a ship. Often, a soul he led to the Lord became a passionate soul-winner himself, such was the miracle of the transformed life. If you can get hold of G F Dempster's books, you will get a view of what a real soul winner was like. Puts many of us to shame.

 

[Clare73]

(a number of people have asked that this topic be posted in a more open area of CF - so here it is)

Realizing first of all - that there are saved saints in all Christian denominations:

As a Seventh-day Adventist -- if I am wrong about my beliefs – there is still no risk to me.

1. IF I am wrong to be a Christian and instead Atheists have the right belief – there is no risk to me. I get the exact same “glorious ending” as the atheist true believer – the hole in ground ending

2. IF I am wrong about rejecting the secret rapture and millennial kingdom on Earth (when I say that in the future the saints are raptured at Christ's Rev 19 appearing according to Matt 24 - and the saints spend the millennium with Christ in heaven, while earth is desolate for that period of time) – there is no risk to me. I get raptured anyway and learn about the details in heaven.

3. IF I am wrong about rejecting OSAS (once saved always saved) and the OSAS groups are right – there is no risk to me. I am saved by accepting Jesus as my savior either way.

4. IF I am wrong about the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment being the 2 Cor 5:10 judgment also in Rom 2:6-16, and so then those who ignore it are right – there is no risk to me.

5. IF I am wrong about the 7th day Sabbath of Ex 20, and those who ignore it are right – there is no risk to me – let each one observe the day as he is persuaded Rom 14.

6. IF I am wrong about God’s health message and those who ignore it are right – there is no risk to me. The Adventist church has one of the 5 “blue zones” in the world, and live 5-7 years longer on average.

7. If I am wrong about Rev 14 (three Angel's messages) being the final warning to mankind before the tribulation-plagues of Rev 16 and the Rev 19 appearing of Christ, and those who ignore it are right, then still there is no risk to me for reading the warning as it is scripture and so is not a problem to share it "anyway".

8. IF I am wrong about rejecting "communion with the dead" (958) and those who choose to commune with the dead are right - there is no risk to me.

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective. "
​

In each one of these example there is an argument that could be made to show that “if I am right” on a given point above and someone rejects that point entirely, then “some risk” might exist for them.

===========================

The are other Christian groups that share some of my same beliefs above and so I think they too would also have "no risk" even if they are wrong on the position above that they share with me.

========================== Two real life examples

1. Noah - if he is wrong then he has a "boat" in his yard for a long time but nobody dies. If he is right -- then it is a huge risk to those who ignored the warning message

2. John the baptizer - and his "repent for the time is fulfilled" message about the Christ - before Jesus meets John. If John is wrong then just a lot more "repent and be baptized" sermons until he dies. But if those who ignored John's message are wrong - the nation itself is at risk of rejecting the Messiah.

The only thing you have to be right on is Jesus Christ and his atoning death applied to your sin through faith in him, as well as faithfulness to him in your life.

Everything else is secondary for your salvation from condemnation (Romans 5:18).

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It seems to me that you did act like a Christian elder, but not like one of the Pharisees that Jesus criticized.

 

[Fervent]

I think it is important to establish a relationship first. People read us before they read the Bible. We often pass by someone preaching on the street corner and not stop to listen to what he has to say because he is a stranger to us. And as many of us know, we tend to avoid talking to the Christian zealot who spends more time preaching religion to others than actually doing his job. I read G F Dempster's book, "Finding Men For Christ", in which he was a Baptist minister in the 1930s, who usually wore a clerical collar. He worked with a welfare mission involved in going out into London's East End to seek lost souls for Christ. What he did was to take off his minister's clothes and put on the same old clothes those who were lining up looking for work in the docks. He would strike up a conversation, find out their story and strike up a relationship with them. Often, after giving them a good meal, and getting them a warm bed, he would share Christ with them. What won many of these unfortunate souls over was that he did not come to them as a minister, but as one of them, prepared to wait in line with them in the freezing temperatures, and even take on a job unloading a ship. Often, a soul he led to the Lord became a passionate soul-winner himself, such was the miracle of the transformed life. If you can get hold of G F Dempster's books, you will get a view of what a real soul winner was like. Puts many of us to shame.

Ordinarily, I'd agree with you. Though relationship is often over stated so that those who have social aptitude issues are not able to put their gifts into the service of the church. Context can be a great ally to relationally challenged teachers, and often such social impairment goes hand in hand with a meticulousness in regards to textual details that is required of teachers. So while relationship is always an important consideration, stressing it can lead to exclusion of peculiarly gifted ministers.

 

[concretecamper]

Realizing first of all - that there are saved saints in all Christian denominations:

bad assumption

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Sabbath commandment in the law is not a stand alone command but it's fulfillment comes by keeping other commandments as well ie you shall not lie, adultery, murder, etc so if you claim that you keep the Sabbath commandment then by your own admission you also keep the rest of the commandments in other words you reach "perfection" like Jesus..James 2:10...if anyone stumbled at one point in the law is guilty of BREAKING ALL of it...

Maybe you should take a look at my signature because I do not think the Ten Commandments comes in a covenant of one or nine one, God wrote a perfect law of Ten. Sadly, the one commandment that is most disputed has to do with our time, 24 hours dedicated every seventh day of holy communion with God.

Does scriptures teach us to be more like Jesus or less? I agree with your post, but it seems veiled with sarcasm, like following the example that Jesus left is a bad thing.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Maybe you should take a look at my signature because I do not think the Ten Commandments comes in a covenant of one or nine one, God wrote a perfect law of Ten. Sadly, the one commandment that is most disputed has to do with our time, 24 hours dedicated every seventh day of holy communion with God.

Does scriptures teach us to be more like Jesus or less? I agree with your post, but it seems veiled with sarcasm, like following the example that Jesus left is a bad thing.

Jesus invites us to enter His Sabbath rest which is 24/7

This eclipses any commandment concerning a particular day.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There is nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments. But they failed to achieve justification before God. The problem is that no one is able to keep them perfectly from their youth up. The Scripture says that just one infraction is equivalent to breaching the whole Law. Many were able to keep the Commandments as written, but just outwardly. Jesus said that anyone who looked at a woman with lust was guilty of adultery even if they didn't go ahead and do the actual act. He also said that if a person hated someone it was equivalent to murder even if they did not actually kill anyone. Even the attitude of trying to keep up with the Joneses is equal to the sin of coveting. Just saying anything like, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is equal to taking the Lord's name in vain. Telling just a little white lie is the same is bearing false witness, and taking an office pen home is the same as stealing.

A person can be perfect in his conduct at church, but the moment he sees another member receive preferential treatment from the leadership and thinks, "I should have been chosen for that!" breaks the Law through jealousy.

So, you can say that you keep the Ten Commandments perfectly, and my reaction would be, "Yeah...right!" So, if your acceptance with God depends on your ability to keep the Ten Commandments, you might be shocked at the judgment when it is revealed that you backed the wrong horse.

Interesting, but the topic of this thread is not if SB keeps the commandments. If I keep or not keep the commandments has nothing to do with everyone’s individual obligation to obey God.

Keeping the commandments of God is not about justification with God. The purpose of the commandments is to point out sin. How can we obey if we don’t understand what we are supposed to obey. The New Covenant is about obeying out of love, not because its a commandment. Sin hurts God so why would we want to hurt God when we are told to love God with all our hearts and minds?

There is a difference of sin and sinning or living in perpetual sin. We can gain victory over sin because Jesus would not ask us to do something that is impossible. He provides us with the Holy Spirit for those who want to obey so we don’t have to do it all on our own. John 14:15-18. If we stumble and fall we have an Advocate that is faithful and just to forgive us of our sin. We should repent and turn from sin because being truly sorry means you don’t want to continue in that sin. If you fall seven times get back up, we have a very merciful God, but when we stop trying and being okay with sin, thats a dangerous place to be. We should not be comfortable living in sin, which is breaking the law of God. 1 John 3:4. We should try to gain victory over sin and the Bible tells us thats anything is possible with God Matthew 19:26. I think our God is greater than our sin but sadly it seems like more people think our sin is greater than our God.

God bless

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus invites us to enter His Sabbath rest which is 24/7

This eclipses any commandment concerning a particular day.

There is no verse that says Jesus is the Sabbath.

The rest in Christ does not delete our moral obligation to obey the Sabbath commandment. Exodus 20:8-11.

We do not receive the rest in Christ when we are disobedient as shown clearly in Hebrews

Hebrews 4: 6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,

What did they disobey? The Sabbath commandment.

Ezekiel 20:13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths.

Hebrews tells us that the Sabbath remains for the people of God, because God also ceased from His work on the Sabbath as our greatest example. Hebrews 4:9-10

 

[Carl Emerson]

There is no verse that says Jesus is the Sabbath.

I agree - who said that ???

 

[BobRyan]

I think what is being expressed in the thread is whether we set out our doctrine with a drafting pencil or a road marker. A hypocrite can set out his doctrinal position with a drafting pencil and yet be condemned because his heart is not right with God and his insistence on doctrinal accuracy may be just for outward show.

What is being expressed in the OP is best illustrated in the first example given there -- which is that in certain cases a particular doctrine has no risk associated if it is wrong whereas all the opposing options to it - do have some level of risk.

 

[BobRyan]

. For me personally, I believe that for some things even if we are wrong in our beliefs that there is no risk for anyone because it is simply a mistaken belief that does not effect God or man. .

exactly