There is NO rapture!!!

gradyll said:

I believe the Holy spirit is taken out of the way at the rapture but not verse three. Verse three is a departure of the faith.

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How many times in scripture is Holy Spirit referred to as he with no capital letter?

And how about this??

Jhn14:16"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—

Because I did not consider this discussion worth even considering, I completely ignored it after my first comment until today, to my surprise, I found this comment, which I have to admit is not simply being irreverent about the scriptures.

dcyates said:

I'm sorry, 4runner, but I have to disagree with your assessment of this text. This doesn't support the concept of the rapture as it is commonly understood. Too often this is seen as describing the Christian's journey to heaven with Christ. However, the Greek word for 'meet' (apantesis), in v. 17 above, bore very distinct connotations in the ancient Greco-Roman world. It designated an event where either the emperor or some other dignitary was making an official visit to a given town or city, the citizens of that city, or a delegation of citizens, would expressly go out from the city to meet the emperor or dignitary and then escort them the rest of the way into their city. What is therefore being discussed here is not a 'rapture' where Christians are whisked off to heaven, but rather where Paul intended to comfort his audience by assuring them that they and their now-dead loved ones have indeed placed their lives in the correct hands; that is, that Jesus is Lord, not Caesar.​

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I have to admit that, when discussed in this light, this is a legitimate subject for discussion.

This, however, does not for even a moment mean I give any credence to the argument.

It indeed seems that this argument is correct, when the opinions of so many recognized "experts" are considered. But these "experts" are, in at least this case, mistaken.

Because so many widely recognized experts agree with this analysis, I am going to do something I have never before done in this forum. I am going to quote from an analysis of this subject that is so thorough and so obviously unbiased that it is authoritative.

This analysis is the Bulletin for Biblical Research 4 (1994) 15-34, © 1994 Institute for Biblical Research, and is titled "Hellenistic Formal Receptions and Paul's Use of APANTHSIS in 1 Thessalonians 4:17." It was written as a conclusion in Doctoral research by Michael R. Cosby of Sioux Falls College.

This paper is particularly authoritative in this subject because it was written by an opponent of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture, and because it is the report of a study undertaken to absolutely prove the correctness of the analysis given above by dcyates. But what the author found instead of what he was looking for was indisputable proof that this analysis is incorrect.

Cosby begins this report by saying,

"In 1930 Peterson published 'Die Einholung des Kyrios,' an article providing quotations from ancient papyri, inscriptions and literature in order to demonstrate that behind Paul's words in 1 Thess 4:17 stands the custom of the Hellenistic formal reception of a dignitary. This viewpoint, widely held among biblical scholars, states that Paul presupposed that his readers in Thessalonica would understand his description of the Parousia in light of such receptions. Thus the formal elements of these welcoming celebrations are unstated parts of the text because of Paul's use of the technical term APANTHSIS.

"The present study, which ironically began as an attempt to strengthen Peterson's case, reveals that APANTHSIS was not a technical term and that all of the main elements of Hellenistic receptions are missing from 1 Thess 4:15-17. An analysis of the ancient descriptions of these receptions shows that most of their usual elements are actually the opposite of what we find in Paul's description of the Parousia. Instead of being a cipher for understanding what Paul meant, they function more as a foil—a loose pattern to play against when describing the coming of the heavenly king."

Further on in the report, he says,

"Recently, with the prophetic beliefs of my youth glimmering as fanciful dreams of a bygone era, a new threat to dogma raised its ten horns and seven heads out of the apocalyptic sea of chaos. While reviewing Peterson's assertions, I discovered to my horror that some of them are simply not persuasive. The potential demise of Peterson's widely accepted argument posed eschatological terror for me. For years I have taught students on the basis of his understanding. For years I have dispensed with the bothersome teaching about the Rapture of the Church by using his explanation. But what if Paul did not have in mind the formal reception of a king when he described the victorious return of Christ?

"In retrospect I realize that my commitment to Peterson's view was based somewhat on my desire to distance myself from the childhood teachings that were now a source of embarrassment. My emotional commitment prevented me from even wanting to notice any problems with his reconstruction. What began as an effort to strengthen Peterson's argument became a disturbing exercise in scholarly honesty."

In the body of the paper Cosby gives the reasons for his conclusion, which can be summarized shortly by the two following findings.

The first finding was that:

A computer search of the Greek literature written during the several centuries surrounding Paul's era using the "Thesaurus Linguae Graecae" (TLG) produced 91 pages of citations of passages that employ forms of APANTHSIS Yet only a minority of the uses of these terms describes formal receptions. For example, in the passages located, Philo Judaeus uses forms of this word 27 times, but not once to describe the meeting of a dignitary. Similarly, Josephus employs them 92 times, but only ten times in descriptions of formal receptions. In the LXX forms of APANTHSIS are used frequently in 1-2 Samuel, 1-2 Kings, 1-2 Chronicles and sporadically in other books, particularly 1-3 Maccabees. Often it designates the hostile meeting of armies, although it also describes virtually any kind of meeting.

Of the many occurrences of forms of APANTHSIS in Diodorus Siculus' Bibliotheca historica, most involve the meeting of soldiers in battle, and the same is true for the historical work of Polybius. Sometimes a form of APANTHSIS describes a formal greeting of a dignitary, but often it does not. And some descriptions of such receptions do not use any form of APANTHSIS (or any of the verb forms of this word).

The second finding was that:

When some form of APANTHSIS was used in regard to formal meetings to escort a dignitary back into a city, it essentially always was accompanied by a series of formal elements, all of which are totally missing in 1 Thessalonians 4.

Cosby ended the article with these words:

"Only after a period of about a year was I able to admit the possibility that Peterson's exegesis was eisegesis. With great hesitation I carefully examined the data, and honesty forced me to admit I had been wrong. In a way this was a triumph, for it illustrated again the power of the text to transform the view of the reader.

"At this point, with only a small amount of residual resentment, I admit that the text of 1 Thess 4:13-17 leaves open the matter of whether or not the Christians are caught up in the air in order to escort the Lord back to earth. By comparing this passage with the other New Testament texts that speak of the Parousia it remains clear, at least to me, that the Parousia in Paul's mind included divine reward of the righteous and judgment of the wicked. But honesty forced me to defuse the most effective bomb in my historical arsenal that so readily destroys the fanciful notion of the Rapture. How much of our scholarship do we perform while looking over our shoulders at the beliefs of our youth that have become sources of embarrassment to us as scholars?"

You can read the entirety of this report at:
http://www.ibr-bbr.org/IBRBulletin/BBR_1994/BBR_1994_02_Cosby-Apantesis1Thes.pdf


As I said, in all my experience in this forum, I have never before appealed to the authority of another scholar. But this paper is so authoritative and convincing that I, in this first and perhaps last case, present the findings of a different scholar.

Chilled Water said:

The historic Christian and Jewish faiths have a significant track record of transforming rituals and symbols whose origins were not Christian, claiming them for the Kingdom of God.

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Just because they say it is OK does not mean that God endorses their actions.

Here is my point, some how some way they started dressing up evergreen tress for the celebration of Christ Mass.

What does God say about this practice...

Jeremiah 10

God and Idols

1 Hear what the LORD says to you, people of Israel. 2 This is what the LORD says: “Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”



So, in other words they are literally using something that God said not to do to HONOR the birth of King Jesus.


That is a very serious contradiction and a vagrant display of complete disrespect, all in the name of religious tolerance.


We are to love the sinner but hate the sin.



Love,
Brother Jerry

LovedofHim said:

Paul said "Now you know what is restraining him", the man of sin, because he tells us in that passage. I know because Paul tells us in verse 1. Do you know?

Online Greek Interlinear Bible

The Greek word is "apostasia". Apostasy is an English word that means departure from your political views, departure from your religion, departure even from your homeland that is based on the Greek word apostasia which means departure.

The only question is what is departing, being 'taken out of the way" before the man of sin can be revealed?

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wuest translation is the only one to agree with you on this, but there is a Jewish prophecy in the book of enoch mentioning a falling away shortly before the appearance of Messiah (1 enoch 5:4; 93:9) and almost every other Bible uses the absolute case of apostacia which means a negative thing like a revolt. Besides in verse 5 of 2 thessalonians 2 it says "remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things." Referring to the sermon on Matthew 24:11-12 where it says the same thing.....watch out for deception and the love of many will depart.

gradyll said:

I agree with a pre tribulation rapture myself.

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I used to.....
but then again, i used to pray to Mary and the Saints
infact, i used to do all kinds of bad things...

i urge you to take another look Bro
IMO pre trib belief is the set up for worshiping the false Christ

and I say that with Christian love....
otherwise i wouldn't give a you know what

B1inHim said:

Just because they say it is OK does not mean that God endorses their actions.

Here is my point, some how some way they started dressing up evergreen tress for the celebration of Christ Mass.

What does God say about this practice...

Jeremiah 10

God and Idols

1 Hear what the LORD says to you, people of Israel. 2 This is what the LORD says: “Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”



So, in other words they are literally using something that God said not to do to HONOR the birth of King Jesus.


That is a very serious contradiction and a vagrant display of complete disrespect, all in the name of religious tolerance.


We are to love the sinner but hate the sin.



Love,
Brother Jerry

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IMO Brother Jerry, we do not worship the Christmas tree....do we?
folks used to worship all kinds of things...apparently trees too...

but don't get me started on the evil's of easter

PASSOVER PEOPLE, read your Bible

LovedofHim said:

That is only the order of events IF the abomination of desolation is the antichrist but it is not. Jesus made it very clear that it is not and that the antichrist, false prophet do their false miracles after the tribulation is cut short.

There is ONE truth and the one you hold to is NOT it.

SEE:


15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
...
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Do you see that? The false christs, false prophets and false miracles arise AFTER the great tribulation is cut short and the great tribulation began with the desolation OF ISRAEL.

THis is confirmed by Daniel 11:36 which shows the antichrist here during the time of wrath.

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Nope, Matthew 24:Then He goes on to say;15 “Therefore when youseethe ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)
Daniel 11:31 (ASV) "And forces shall stand on his part, and they shall profane the sanctuary, even the fortress, and shall take away the continual [burnt-offering], and they shall set up the abomination that maketh desolate." Daniel 12:11 (ASV) "And from the time that the continual [burnt-offering] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand and two hundred and ninety days."AND then He tells us;29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


According to King Jesus verse 29-31 of Matthew happens after verses 1 thru 28.

Some people just don't understand.

Have a great week.

Love,
Brother Jerry

son_flower said:

How many times in scripture is Holy Spirit referred to as he with no capital letter?

And how about this??

Jhn14:16"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—

Click to expand...

good one, I will try not to misstype again.

B1inHim said:

Just because they say it is OK does not mean that God endorses their actions.

Here is my point, some how some way they started dressing up evergreen tress for the celebration of Christ Mass.

What does God say about this practice...

Jeremiah 10

God and Idols

1 Hear what the LORD says to you, people of Israel. 2 This is what the LORD says: “Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”



So, in other words they are literally using something that God said not to do to HONOR the birth of King Jesus.


That is a very serious contradiction and a vagrant display of complete disrespect, all in the name of religious tolerance.


We are to love the sinner but hate the sin.



Love,
Brother Jerry

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I haven't put up a Christmas tree in almost ten years, but if I ever do put up a tree again, and it's likely I will I tell you what I'll make sure not to worship it.

Also, if I don't use gold or silver to adorn it, but just put up silly ornaments of cartoon characters, does that still make God angry? Because I still have this one ornament of a frog that when you pull on a string it ribbits that I got when I was four and I love that thing. Do you think the Almighty also hates toy frogs?

-CryptoLutheran

gradyll said:

I agree with a pre tribulation rapture myself.

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what scriptures do you use to support you belief?
perhaps we can study them together...

gradyll said:

good one, I will try not to misstype again.

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hey Bro... i do not think she was chastising you...i think she has a point

zeke37 said:

IMO Brother Jerry, we do not worship the Christmas tree....do we?
folks used to worship all kinds of things...apparently trees too...

but don't get me started on the evil's of easter

PASSOVER PEOPLE, read your Bible

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ROFL...Resurrection Sunday not Eostre

There is going to be gathering some time between now and later.

King Jesus is going to orchestrate it, He has been planning this for a VERY long time and even told us a few things about it.

A LOT of people think that they have discovered the timing of this event...

This is what He say's about that;

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

Being ready is much better than trying to figure out something that is going to happen anyways.

And let us remember, just because they don't agree with us doesn't make them our enemy.

It is not their fault...

So, y'all have a great week and stand strong in Christ...

Love,
Brother Jerry

gradyll said:

Wuest translation agrees with you,

Do not begin to allow anyone to lead you astray in any way, because that day shall not come except the aforementioned departure [of the Church to heaven] comes first and the man of the lawlessness is disclosed [in his true identity], the son of perdition, he who sets himself in opposition to and exalts himself above everyone and everything that is called a god or that is an object of worship, so that he seats himself in the inner sanctuary of God, proclaiming himself to be deity.
5–7 Do you not remember that while I was still with you I kept on telling you these things? And now you know with a positive assurance that which [namely, the departure of the Church, the saints being assembled together to the Lord] is preventing his being disclosed [as to his true identity] in his strategic, appointed time, for the mystery of the aforementioned lawlessness is now operating. Only He [the Holy Spirit] who is holding [the lawlessness] down, [will do so] until He goes out from the midst [of humanity].

Wuest, Kenneth S.: The New Testament : An Expanded Translation. Grand Rapids, MI : Eerdmans, 1997, c1961, S. 2 Th 2:1

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Regardless of what Bible translations that are out there and what they say, 1 Thess 4 & 5 as well as Rev 12 and 13 CONFIRM that the church must depart before the man of sin is revealed and that revealing takes place during the time of wrath on the Day of the Lord.

Those translations that have translated apostasia as "the departure" are correct. And now you know what the restrainer is!

2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

CryptoLutheran said:

I haven't put up a Christmas tree in almost ten years, but if I ever do put up a tree again, and it's likely I will I tell you what I'll make sure not to worship it.

Also, if I don't use gold or silver to adorn it, but just put up silly ornaments of cartoon characters, does that still make God angry? Because I still have this one ornament of a frog that when you pull on a string it ribbits that I got when I was four and I love that thing. Do you think the Almighty also hates toy frogs?

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

I had this same conversation with one of my dear Brothers last year...

Y'all do what chew want to.

If it is sin to me that is not a problem that you need to concern yourself with.

Have a great week.
Love,
Brother Jerry

gradyll said:

wuest translation is the only one to agree with you on this, but there is a Jewish prophecy in the book of enoch mentioning a falling away shortly before the appearance of Messiah (1 enoch 5:4; 93:9) and almost every other Bible uses the absolute case of apostacia which means a negative thing like a revolt. Besides in verse 5 of 2 thessalonians 2 it says "remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things." Referring to the sermon on Matthew 24:11-12 where it says the same thing.....watch out for deception and the love of many will depart.

Click to expand...

Agreed - there's no doubt that people will become evil (as we see all around us), denying the power of God, etc before Jesus comes but Paul didn't say a peep about THAT in 2 Thess 2 because that's not what Paul was talking about. He said the TOPIC of the passage was:

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you

Now don't you find it odd that Paul said the topic of the passage was CONCERNING the coming of Jesus and "OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM" (which as Paul described elsewhere as when we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air) and then NOWHERE in that passage did he mention it?

No, indeed. Paul is all over it throughout those first eight verses! Our "gathering together unto him" IS the departure that must take place before the man of sin can be revealed on the Day of the Lord.


2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.

2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.
2Th 2:5Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

B1inHim said:

Nope, Matthew 24:Then He goes on to say;15 “Therefore when youseethe ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)
Daniel 11:31 (ASV) "And forces shall stand on his part, and they shall profane the sanctuary, even the fortress, and shall take away the continual [burnt-offering], and they shall set up the abomination that maketh desolate." Daniel 12:11 (ASV) "And from the time that the continual [burnt-offering] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand and two hundred and ninety days."AND then He tells us;29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


According to King Jesus verse 29-31 of Matthew happens after verses 1 thru 28.

Some people just don't understand.

Have a great week.

Love,
Brother Jerry

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Jerry, Jesus was answering two very specific questions in Matthew 24. One of them was:


1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?


Now tell me in Matthew 24 where Jesus answered THAT particular question about when the stones of the temple buildings being thrown down. Do you understand that happened in 70AD? God sent the Roman armies to surround Israel, destroy the temple and desolate them until the time of the end - THAT is the abomination of desolation of Israel, not the antichrist.


Luke 19:41And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

You are mistaken. The abomination of desolation OF ISRAEL has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the antichrist but refers to the Roman armies surrounding Israel, destroying the temple and desolating Israel until the time of the end.


Daniel 11:31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Luke 21:20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Psalm 74


1O God, why hast thou cast us off for ever? why doth thine anger smoke against the sheep of thy pasture?
2Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old; the rod of thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed; this mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt.
3Lift up thy feet unto the perpetual desolations; even all that the enemy hath done wickedly in the sanctuary.
4Thine enemies roar in the midst of thy congregations; they set up their ensigns for signs.
5A man was famous according as he had lifted up axes upon the thick trees.
6But now they break down the carved work thereof at once with axes and hammers.
7They have cast fire into thy sanctuary, they have defiled by casting down the dwelling place of thy name to the ground.
8They said in their hearts, Let us destroy them together: they have burned up all the synagogues of God in the land.
9We see not our signs: there is no more any prophet: neither is there among us any that knoweth how long.
10O God, how long shall the adversary reproach? shall the enemy blaspheme thy name for ever? 11Why withdrawest thou thy hand, even thy right hand? pluck it out of thy bosom.

LovedofHim said:

Now don't you find it odd that Paul said the topic of the passage was CONCERNING the coming of Jesus and "OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM" (which as Paul described elsewhere as when we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air) and then NOWHERE in that passage did he mention it?

Click to expand...

Yes Paul is speaking to them concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him. He is also speaking about this same coming of Christ in verse 8 that the man of sin is destroyed by the brightness of.

LovedofHim said:

Agreed - there's no doubt that people will become evil (as we see all around us), denying the power of God, etc before Jesus comes but Paul didn't say a peep about THAT in 2 Thess 2 because that's not what Paul was talking about. He said the TOPIC of the passage was:

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you

Now don't you find it odd that Paul said the topic of the passage was CONCERNING the coming of Jesus and "OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM" (which as Paul described elsewhere as when we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air) and then NOWHERE in that passage did he mention it?

No, indeed. Paul is all over it throughout those first eight verses! Our "gathering together unto him" IS the departure that must take place before the man of sin can be revealed on the Day of the Lord.


2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.

2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.
2Th 2:5Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

Click to expand...

well I am out of fresh ideas so I will give you some other commentaries, hopefully they will help in some way.

KJV BIBLE COMMENTARY

B. The Man of Sin. 2:3–12.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away. Part of the sentence is implied in the original, and must be supplied in the translation; the Day of the Lord will not begin without the falling away (Gr apostasia). Our English word “apostasy” comes, of course, directly from this Greek word, which means literally a “standing away from” or “departure.” In the religious sense it is a departure from the faith, and what we have in this passage is called the final apostasy which is to be led by the man of lawlessness. Some have taken the words falling away to refer to the Rapture of the church in order to prove a point; there is no historical support for that translation, however. The religious meaning is illustrated by Paul in I Timothy 1:4, and by the author of Hebrews in 3:12. At any rate, an apostasy must precede the Day of the Lord.
Simultaneously with the great apostasy, or at least another prerequisite to the beginning of the events of the Second Coming, is appearance of the man of sin. The better manuscripts read here, “man of lawlessness,” but there is no important difference in the name, for the Bible tells us that “sin is lawlessness” (I Jn 3:4). That the Man of Sin is revealed (Gr apokalypt&#333 shows that he exists prior to the time of this revelation or appearance. I John 2:18 states that there were already many antichrists, in the sense of people who are against Christ, existing in that day. It is not certain exactly who this person will be; but the identification of the Man of Sin with the coming Antichrist of Revelation is the most logical conclusion. He is the “beast out of the sea” (Rev 13:1), the “little horn” of Daniel 7:8. He is the Antichrist, i.e., the false christ who will force himself and his kingdom upon the world one day hence (Rev 13:15–17).


KJV Bible Commentary. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1994, S. 2486


J VERNON MAGEE
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition [2 Thess. 2:3].
“Let no man deceive you by any means.” If we are not to be deceived, then let’s listen to Paul.
“For that day shall not come.” Which day? The Day of the Lord—not the Rapture. The Day of the Lord shall not come except there be the fulfilling of two conditions: (1) “There come a falling away first” and (2) “that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.” Both of these things must take place before the Day of the Lord can begin, and neither one of them has taken place as yet.
There must be “a falling away first.” Many have interpreted this to mean the apostasy, and I agree that it does refer to that. But I think it means more than that, as a careful examination of the word will reveal. The Greek word that is here translated as “falling away” is apostasia. The root word actually means “departure or removal from.”
Paul says that before the Day of the Lord begins there must first come a removing. There are two kinds of removing that are going to take place. First, the organized church will depart from the faith—that is what we call apostasy. But there will be total apostasy when the Lord comes, and that cannot take place until the true church is removed. The Lord asked, “… when the Son of man cometh [to the earth], shall he find [the] faith …?” (Luke 18:8). When He says “the faith,” He means that body of truth which He left here. The answer to His question is no, He will not find the faith here when He returns. There will be total apostasy because of two things: (1) the organization of the church has departed from the faith—it has apostatized and (2) there has been another departure, the departure of the true church from the earth. The departure of the true church leads into the total apostatizing of the organized church. The Day of the Lord cannot begin—nor the Great Tribulation Period—until the departure of the true church has taken place.
Paul is not going into detail about the rapture of the church because he has already written about that in his first epistle: “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:16–17). That is the departure, the removal, of the church.
The organized church which is left down here will totally depart from the faith. We see it pictured as the great harlot in Revelation 17. The Laodicean church, which is the seventh and last church described in the Book of Revelation, is in sad condition. I think that is the period we are in right now. When the true believers are gone, it will get even worse. It will finally end in total apostasy.


McGee, J. Vernon: Thru the Bible Commentary. electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1981, S. 5:413

gradyll said:

well I am out of fresh ideas so I will give you some other commentaries, hopefully they will help in some way.

KJV BIBLE COMMENTARY

B. The Man of Sin. 2:3–12.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away. Part of the sentence is implied in the original, and must be supplied in the translation; the Day of the Lord will not begin without the falling away (Gr apostasia). Our English word “apostasy” comes, of course, directly from this Greek word, which means literally a “standing away from” or “departure.” In the religious sense it is a departure from the faith, and what we have in this passage is called the final apostasy which is to be led by the man of lawlessness. Some have taken the words falling away to refer to the Rapture of the church in order to prove a point; there is no historical support for that translation, however. The religious meaning is illustrated by Paul in I Timothy 1:4, and by the author of Hebrews in 3:12. At any rate, an apostasy must precede the Day of the Lord.
Simultaneously with the great apostasy, or at least another prerequisite to the beginning of the events of the Second Coming, is appearance of the man of sin. The better manuscripts read here, “man of lawlessness,” but there is no important difference in the name, for the Bible tells us that “sin is lawlessness” (I Jn 3:4). That the Man of Sin is revealed (Gr apokalypt&#333 shows that he exists prior to the time of this revelation or appearance. I John 2:18 states that there were already many antichrists, in the sense of people who are against Christ, existing in that day. It is not certain exactly who this person will be; but the identification of the Man of Sin with the coming Antichrist of Revelation is the most logical conclusion. He is the “beast out of the sea” (Rev 13:1), the “little horn” of Daniel 7:8. He is the Antichrist, i.e., the false christ who will force himself and his kingdom upon the world one day hence (Rev 13:15–17).


KJV Bible Commentary. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1994, S. 2486


J VERNON MAGEE
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition [2 Thess. 2:3].
“Let no man deceive you by any means.” If we are not to be deceived, then let’s listen to Paul.
“For that day shall not come.” Which day? The Day of the Lord—not the Rapture. The Day of the Lord shall not come except there be the fulfilling of two conditions: (1) “There come a falling away first” and (2) “that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.” Both of these things must take place before the Day of the Lord can begin, and neither one of them has taken place as yet.
There must be “a falling away first.” Many have interpreted this to mean the apostasy, and I agree that it does refer to that. But I think it means more than that, as a careful examination of the word will reveal. The Greek word that is here translated as “falling away” is apostasia. The root word actually means “departure or removal from.”
Paul says that before the Day of the Lord begins there must first come a removing. There are two kinds of removing that are going to take place. First, the organized church will depart from the faith—that is what we call apostasy. But there will be total apostasy when the Lord comes, and that cannot take place until the true church is removed. The Lord asked, “… when the Son of man cometh [to the earth], shall he find [the] faith …?” (Luke 18:8). When He says “the faith,” He means that body of truth which He left here. The answer to His question is no, He will not find the faith here when He returns. There will be total apostasy because of two things: (1) the organization of the church has departed from the faith—it has apostatized and (2) there has been another departure, the departure of the true church from the earth. The departure of the true church leads into the total apostatizing of the organized church. The Day of the Lord cannot begin—nor the Great Tribulation Period—until the departure of the true church has taken place.
Paul is not going into detail about the rapture of the church because he has already written about that in his first epistle: “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:16–17). That is the departure, the removal, of the church.
The organized church which is left down here will totally depart from the faith. We see it pictured as the great harlot in Revelation 17. The Laodicean church, which is the seventh and last church described in the Book of Revelation, is in sad condition. I think that is the period we are in right now. When the true believers are gone, it will get even worse. It will finally end in total apostasy.


McGee, J. Vernon: Thru the Bible Commentary. electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1981, S. 5:413

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I've got scriptural confirmation in 1 Thess 4 & 5 and Revelation 12 and 13 that the church is caught up to heaven before the antichrist is empowered on the Day of the Lord.

Kingdom_Come said:

Yes Paul is speaking to them concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him. He is also speaking about this same coming of Christ in verse 8 that the man of sin is destroyed by the brightness of.

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Then who is the restrainer that Paul said has to DEPART before the man of sin can be revealed?

2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

Our gathering together unto Jesus is different from the moment when He comes on the clouds to destroy. At the time when we are gathered to Jesus, he appears and we are caught up to meet him in the air. We know that we are going to the New Jerusalem in heaven, the city prepared for us, at the throne of God.

1 Thess 4 and 5 as well as Rev 12 and 13 PROVE that it is the church that must depart before the man of sin is revealed on the Day of the Lord.