There is no Hell?

[Supreme]

The Bible is actually rather silent on Hell (barring Revelation). Of course, in popular Church art, it's portrayed as a fiery abode deep under the Earth, but who knows truly what Hell is like, other than God? I only know that I have no desire to visit.

 

[oj1990]

i dont recall hell being mensioned in the bible just the lake of eternal fire

 

[ViaCrucis]

...no.

The Earth is 4.54 billion years old, and humans have been on this rock for a couple million years.

I think dazed was attempting to work within a YEC framework for the sake of argument, not as though dazed believes everything is only 6,000 years old.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Bible is actually rather silent on Hell (barring Revelation). Of course, in popular Church art, it's portrayed as a fiery abode deep under the Earth, but who knows truly what Hell is like, other than God? I only know that I have no desire to visit.

Interesting comments by N.T. Wright:

What Is Hell Like? Does It Even Exist? NT Wright on 100 Huntley Street (HD) - YouTube

-CryptoLutheran

 

[morningstar2651]

i dont recall hell being mensioned in the bible just the lake of eternal fire

In Dante's Inferno, the lowest level of Hell is frozen cold because it is farthest from the warmth of God's Love. The book certainly isn't scriptural, but a lot of the modern descriptions of Hell are likely derived from Dante's novel. A fun bit of trivia: Dante wrote the Divine Comedy in Italian instead of the traditional Latin that one would expect a book about redemption to be written about at the time.

In the bible, there are a few descriptions of where people go when they die. The abode of the wicked is known as Gehenna.

In Jewish, Christian and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked. This is different from the more neutral Sheol, the abode of the dead, though the King James version of the Bible translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.

 

[morningstar2651]

In Dante's Inferno, the lowest level of Hell is frozen cold because it is farthest from the warmth of God's Love. The book certainly isn't scriptural, but a lot of the modern descriptions of Hell are likely derived from Dante's novel. A fun bit of trivia: Dante wrote the Divine Comedy in Italian instead of the traditional Latin that one would expect a book about redemption to be written about at the time.

In the bible, there are a few descriptions of where people go when they die. The abode of the wicked is known as Gehenna.

In Jewish, Christian and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked. This is different from the more neutral Sheol, the abode of the dead, though the King James version of the Bible translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.

The Anglo-Saxon word Hell finds its root in the Norse Hel. While the Christians have Heaven and Hell, the Norse had Valhalla, Fólkvangr, and Helheim.

 

[smaneck]

who knows truly what Hell is like, other than God? I only know that I have no desire to visit.

Abdu'l-Baha says that the afterlife is as different to this life, as the life in the womb is different to life outside the womb. If a baby in the womb were to say, what does I need these eyes, ears, mouth, etc. for, they have no purpose in the life I lead, he or she would be born with a significant disability. Likewise if we fail to acquire spiritual qualities in this life we will be severely handicapped in the world to come where these qualities alone matter.

 

[gord44]

Abdu'l-Baha says that the afterlife is as different to this life, as the life in the womb is different to life outside the womb. If a baby in the womb were to say, what does I need these eyes, ears, mouth, etc. for, they have no purpose in the life I lead, he or she would be born with a significant disability. Likewise if we fail to acquire spiritual qualities in this life we will be severely handicapped in the world to come where these qualities alone matter.

When I was gnostic I had a similar view. That we were to spend this life gaining 'gnosis' so we could escape and enjoy whatever comes next.

I have started to realize that everyone's afterlife will most likely be the same. Either annihilation or a non-conscious continuation of whatever we are. I do think the person (gord, smaneck) ceases to exist, even though what ever divinity we are will carry on. Almost like waves on an ocean, we rise up and live and then crash back into what we were before.

Of course I could be wrong. The afterlife is a big mystery to everyone. But I remember even when I was a Christian, I just couldn't get over the feeling that there very possibly was not a conscious afterlife after we die. So finally I had to be honest with myself. That said I do think we can live on in other ways as is one truly ever born or dead?

 

[Cuddles333]

The Jews did not have any doctrine containing an after life of eternal hell fire punishment before 200 B.C. It was then that they adopted the Greek's religious teaching into their own. Their own word 'sheol' became the Classic Greek Myth 'hades' which contained the 2 compartments of eternal (paradise-bliss) & (tartarus-torturous punishment).

However, since it is logical for God to reward eternally, it follows that it is logical for God to punish eternally. So since the Classic Greek myth of eternal hell fire does not really exist, one shouldn't get their hopes up about getting to avoid any eternal punishment for not coming to Him before they die.

 

[smaneck]

The Jews did not have any doctrine containing an after life of eternal hell fire punishment before 200 B.C. It was then that they adopted the Greek's religious teaching into their own.

I think it more likely the idea came via the Persians rather than the Greeks. The notion of the Resurrection of the Dead and the Judgement Day comes from Zoroastrianism.

 

[smaneck]

However, since it is logical for God to reward eternally, it follows that it is logical for God to punish eternally.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Hell was not eternal in Zoroastrianism because they believed that in the end all of the good creation must be redeemed, otherwise good does not win the final victory. The reason hell was seen to be a place of burning torment was because this is how you purify metals.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm not sure I agree with that. Hell was not eternal in Zoroastrianism because they believed that in the end all of the good creation must be redeemed, otherwise good does not win the final victory. The reason hell was seen to be a place of burning torment was because this is how you purify metals.

If I remember correctly, Zoroastrian eschatology says that on the Last Day the world will be judged with molten metal which will burn away all wickedness, the righteous will walk through it like it were warm milk. Something along those lines at least.

The notion of a coming judgment of fire is present also in Christian eschatology, specifically in the the epistles of Peter which speaks of the earth being consumed by fire. Some suggest this means the destruction of the world, I think the more orthodox and intended interpretation is that the fire comes to purge the world of evil works. It's apocalyptic language, there will be a Final Judgment and everything will be exposed for what it is, and all will be purified.

Not so oddly I think, St. Gregory of Nyssa spoke of hellfire as a "purgatorial fire", even as gold, when placed in a fire, is purified as the impurities are destroyed, so is the soul purified by the fire of hell.

I was fascinated once, by a short clip of N.T. Wright being asked what he thought about Hell. Wright's response was, "Why are Americans so obsessed about Hell?" Christians in America, said Wright, are far more obsessed about the idea of Hell and what it all means and trying to defend it or argue it (etc) then elsewhere.

Oh, found that clip:

Hell & Bell with NT Wright - YouTube

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BruceDLimber]

ince it is logical for God to reward eternally, it follows that it's logical for God to punish eternally. [The] Greek myth of eternal hell fire does not really exist; one shouldn't get their hopes up about getting to avoid any eternal punishment for not coming to Him before they die.

In fact, hell is not eternal according to the Baha'i scriptures! I quote:

"It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed; that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice; for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have the power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God.... Therefore in that world also they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness, and receive light through entreaties and supplications.

"Both before and after putting off this material form, there is progress in perfection, but not in state.... There is no other being higher than a perfect man. But man when he has reached this state can still make progress in perfections but not in state, because there is no state higher than that of a perfect man to which he can transfer himself. He only progresses in the state of humanity, for the human perfections are infinite. Thus however learned a man may be, we can imagine one more learned.

"Hence, as the perfections of humanity are endless, man can also make progress in perfections after leaving this world."

―Some Answered Questions, p. 274.

And as to expectation of reward or punishment, the Baha'i scriptures address this, too:


"So worship God that if the recompense of thy worship of Him were to be the Fire, no alteration in thy worship of Him would be produced. If you worship from fear, that is unworthy of the threshold of the holiness of God.… So also, if your gaze is on Paradise and if you worship in hope of that; for then you have made God’s creation a Partner with Him."
--The Bayan

Peace,


Bruce

 

[Rationalt]

I fail to see any convincing Logic in this assertion.

...since it is logical for God to reward eternally, it follows that it is logical for God to punish eternally.

 

[Rationalt]

In fact, hell is not eternal according to the Baha'i scriptures! I quote: ..

It follows the author of Bahai scriptures is at odds with quranic author.

Quranic Hell verses 41:28 : Fire is eternal home for unbelievers
6:128 dwell forever in fire.

I hope that the regular bahais put forth their argument instead of copy pasting large texts.

 

[Rationalt]

Christian and muslim scriptural Ideas of eternal hell has sound logical basis rooted in their books.

 

[smaneck]

It follows the author of Bahai scriptures is at odds with quranic author.

Quranic Hell verses 41:28 : Fire is eternal home for unbelievers
6:128 dwell forever in fire.

I hope that the regular bahais put forth their argument instead of copy pasting large texts.

Copying and pasting long texts is a problem but so are posting fragments of verses together as though they follow one another.
Fire [Nar] in Arabic is the opposite of light [Nur]. As long as one lives in denial one dwells in Nar. If one is forever an unbeliever it stands to reason that this Nar is eternal. If a person changes, as the quote which Bruce cited indicates, they are no longer an unbeliever.

 

[awitch]

Well, what do you know? Hell is a real place. It's in Michigan.

 

[Rationalt]

Copying and pasting long texts is a problem

I was referring to bahai spam where you copy paste huge text from bahai literature without regards to the points raised.

but so are posting fragments of verses together as though they follow one another.
Fire [Nar] in Arabic is the opposite of light [Nur]. As long as one lives in denial one dwells in Nar. If one is forever an unbeliever it stands to reason that this Nar is eternal. If a person changes, as the quote which Bruce cited indicates, they are no longer an unbeliever.

Post the full quranic verses to support what you are writing otherwise it is just another bahai literature spam post.The Quran verse numbers I posted were discussed before.If are unaware take a look at them.
Here are some links with word by word arabic translations by Authentic muslim site.

Fussilat 41:28
al-An`am 6:128

 

[smaneck]

I was referring to bahai spam where you copy paste huge text from bahai literature without regards to the points raised.

It may have been too large a text, but it was most definitely consistent with the subject we were discussing.

Post the full quranic verses to support what you are writing otherwise it is just another bahai literature spam post.

Let me get this straight, because I posted something in my own words and didn't cut and paste anything I am guilty of making a Baha'i literature spam post?

The Quran verse numbers I posted were discussed before.If are unaware take a look at them.

What you did is take two fragments of verses found in different locations and placed them together as though the represented a continuous statement.