There is no hell.

[JudaicChristian]

[SIZE=+1]There is more than one passage of scripture which mention some kind of conscious awareness after death. In these two passages God himself is speaking.

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.​

When the king of Babylon died there was a lot of moving, meeting, stirring, raising, and speaking in sheol, the place of the dead.

Eze 32:21-31
(21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
[ . . . ]
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and be comforted. over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

[/SIZE]

If you will only take notice of the words "Hell" in your quotes. The problem is that it is not a correct translation of scripture. By the way, I did notice you red highlighted words. I would have to study the translation before I could comment. But I will say this, The insects have stirred the grave.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=+1]There is more than one passage of scripture which mention some kind of conscious awareness after death. In these two passages God himself is speaking.

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.​

When the king of Babylon died there was a lot of moving, meeting, stirring, raising, and speaking in sheol, the place of the dead.

Eze 32:21-31
(21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
[ . . . ]
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and be comforted. over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.[/size]​

[SIZE=-1]If you will only take notice of the words "Hell" in your quotes. The problem is that it is not a correct translation of scripture. By the way, I did notice you red highlighted words. I would have to study the translation before I could comment. But I will say this, The insects have stirred the grave.[/SIZE]

The problem with your argument about "hell" is, that is only your opinion. You have not provided any Hebrew language resources to support your argument. OTOH I have provided evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia. It is also your opinion about the "insects." Notice the passage says "hell" is stirred up, NOT the insects are stirred up. In your fanciful interpretation do the insects also speak and say things like, "Are you also become weak as we? Are you become like unto us? etc?"

†שְׁאוֹל S7585 TWOT2303c GK8619, שְׁאֹל n.f. ψ 86:13 (appar. m. Jb 26:6 cf. Is 14:9, v. AlbrZAW xvi (1896), 51) She˒ôl, underworld (√ dub.; שׁאל, i.e. place of inquiry (ref. to necromancy) JastrAm. J. Sem. Lang. xiv. 170, cf. JBL xix (1900), 88 ff. (JeremLeben n. d. Tode 109 ‘Ort der Entscheidung’); Thes BöDe Inf. § 158 Di al. cp. √ שׁעל, whence שֹׁעַל hollow hand, etc.; שׁ׳ then = hollow place, ‘Hölle’, hell; other conj. v. Hup Ps. 6:6 De Is. 5:14 BeerBibl. Hades in HoltzmannFestgabe, 1902, 15; most now refrain from positive etymology (e.g. Buhl); Old Aramaic שאול, Syriac ܫܝܽܘܠ (šyul); Assyrian šu-alu is dub.: so read and interpr. DlPa 121; Prol. 47, 145 JastrAm. J. Sem. Lang. xiv. 165 ff. Ency. Bib.s.v.; opp. by BertinTSBA viii. 269 JenKosmol. 223 ff. ZimKAT 3. 636 al.; v. also Muss-ArnoltJBL xi (1892), 169 and reff.);—always abs., שְׁאוֹל Dt 32:22 + 52 times, ה—ָ Gn 42:38 ψ 9:18; שְׁאֹל 1 K 2:6 Jb 17:16, ה—ָ Gn 37:35 + 7 times; + Is 7:11 (so read for שְׁאָ֫לָה Aq Σ Θ Du Che and now most);— 1. the underworld, שׁ׳ תַּחְתִּית Dt 32:22, מִתַּחַת Is 14:9; מִשּׁ׳ מָ֑טָּה Pr 15:24; || מָוֶת 5:5; 7:27 Ct 8:6 ψ 89:49; whither men descend at death, Gn 37:35 (E), 42:38; 44:29, 31 (J), 1 S 2:6 1 K 2:6, 9 Jb 7:9; 21:13 Is 14:11, 15 ψ 88:4, and Korah and associates go down alive by י׳’s judgment, Nu 16:30, 33 (J), cf. ψ 55:16; under mts. and sea Jb 26:6 (cf. v 5), בֶּטֶן שׁ׳ Jon 2:3 (cf. v 7); with bars Jb 17:16 (si vera l.: v. G Du); פִּי שׁ׳ ψ 141:7; שַׁעֲרֵי שׁ׳ Is 38:10; personif. Is 28:15, 18 (|| מו&#1514 as insatiable monster 5:14 Hb 2:5 Pr 1:12; 27:20; 30:16; as said (fig.) to have snares, חֶבְלֵי שׁ׳, ψ 18:6 = 2 S 22:6, cf. מְצָרֵי שׁ׳ ψ 116:3; opp. (height of) שָׁמַיִם Am 9:2 Jb 11:8 ψ 139:8 + (opp. לְמָ֑עְלָ&#1492 Is 7:11 (v. supra); dark, gloomy, without return Jb 17:13 (cf. v 16 7:9; 10:21; 16:22; all being alike 3:17–19; 21:23–26); without work or knowledge or wisdom according to Ec 9:5, 6, 10 (cf. Jb 14:21, and v. רְפָאִים sub רפה; yet cf. Is 14:9f.). 2. condition of righteous and wicked disting. in שׁ׳ (later than 1 S 28, especially in WisdLt): a. wicked יָשׁוּבוּ לִשְׁא֑וֹלָה ψ 9:18, יִדְּמוּ לִשׁ׳ 31:18; death is their shepherd, without power and honour they waste away 49:15(×2); שׁ׳ consumes them as drought water Jb 24:19; righteous dread it because no praise or presence of God there (as in temple) ψ 6:6 (cf. 88:6), Is 38:18; deliverance from it a blessing ψ 30:4; 86:13 Pr 23:14. In Ezek. שׁ׳ is land below, place of reproach, abode of uncircumcised Ez 31:15, 16, 17; 32:21, 27. b. righteous shall not be abandoned, לשׁ׳ ψ 16:10 (|| שַׁחַת q.v.; opp. אֹרַח הַיִּים, etc., v 11, cf. 17:15), is ransomed from שׁ׳ 49:16 (cf. 73:23, 25 Is 57:1, 2); cf. Job’s expectation and desire Jb 14:13; 17:13 (cf. 10:21; 19:25 f.). 3. later distinction of places in שׁ׳: a. depths of שׁ׳ for sensualist Pr 9:18. b. שׁ׳ וַאֲבַדּוֹן Pr 15:11, v. אֲבַדּוֹן. [שַׁחַת and בּוֹר, q.v., when || שׁ׳, are usually in bad sense (ψ 88:4); prob. = pit in שׁ׳, > שׁ׳ itself as pit; words at least prepare for local distinctions of postB Judaism and NT.] 4. שׁ׳ fig. of extreme degradation in sin Is 57:9; as place of exile for Israel Ho 13:14(×2) (cf. Is 26:19).

Brown, Francis ; Driver, Samuel Rolles ; Briggs, Charles Augustus: Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon. electronic ed. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos Research Systems, 2000, S. 982
​

 

[JudaicChristian]

Luke 24:25
He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!

When ever we read a parable, caution is required so that we do not imagine vain things. I would presume that it is the day of judgement for there to be any literal talking.

 

[JudaicChristian]

The problem with your argument about "hell" is, that is only your opinion. You have not provided any Hebrew language resources to support your argument. OTOH I have provided evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia. It is also your opinion about the "insects." Notice the passage says "hell" is stirred up, NOT the insects are stirred up. In your fanciful interpretation do the insects also speak and say things like, "Are you also become weak as we? Are you become like unto us? etc?"

†שְׁאוֹל S7585 TWOT2303c GK8619, שְׁאֹל n.f. ψ 86:13 (appar. m. Jb 26:6 cf. Is 14:9, v. AlbrZAW xvi (1896), 51) She˒ôl, underworld (√ dub.; שׁאל, i.e. place of inquiry (ref. to necromancy) JastrAm. J. Sem. Lang. xiv. 170, cf. JBL xix (1900), 88 ff. (JeremLeben n. d. Tode 109 ‘Ort der Entscheidung’); Thes BöDe Inf. § 158 Di al. cp. √ שׁעל, whence שֹׁעַל hollow hand, etc.; שׁ׳ then = hollow place, ‘Hölle’, hell; other conj. v. Hup Ps. 6:6 De Is. 5:14 BeerBibl. Hades in HoltzmannFestgabe, 1902, 15; most now refrain from positive etymology (e.g. Buhl); Old Aramaic שאול, Syriac ܫܝܽܘܠ (šyul); Assyrian šu-alu is dub.: so read and interpr. DlPa 121; Prol. 47, 145 JastrAm. J. Sem. Lang. xiv. 165 ff. Ency. Bib.s.v.; opp. by BertinTSBA viii. 269 JenKosmol. 223 ff. ZimKAT 3. 636 al.; v. also Muss-ArnoltJBL xi (1892), 169 and reff.);—always abs., שְׁאוֹל Dt 32:22 + 52 times, ה—ָ Gn 42:38 ψ 9:18; שְׁאֹל 1 K 2:6 Jb 17:16, ה—ָ Gn 37:35 + 7 times; + Is 7:11 (so read for שְׁאָ֫לָה Aq Σ Θ Du Che and now most);— 1. the underworld, שׁ׳ תַּחְתִּית Dt 32:22, מִתַּחַת Is 14:9; מִשּׁ׳ מָ֑טָּה Pr 15:24; || מָוֶת 5:5; 7:27 Ct 8:6 ψ 89:49; whither men descend at death, Gn 37:35 (E), 42:38; 44:29, 31 (J), 1 S 2:6 1 K 2:6, 9 Jb 7:9; 21:13 Is 14:11, 15 ψ 88:4, and Korah and associates go down alive by י׳’s judgment, Nu 16:30, 33 (J), cf. ψ 55:16; under mts. and sea Jb 26:6 (cf. v 5), בֶּטֶן שׁ׳ Jon 2:3 (cf. v 7); with bars Jb 17:16 (si vera l.: v. G Du); פִּי שׁ׳ ψ 141:7; שַׁעֲרֵי שׁ׳ Is 38:10; personif. Is 28:15, 18 (|| מו&#1514 as insatiable monster 5:14 Hb 2:5 Pr 1:12; 27:20; 30:16; as said (fig.) to have snares, חֶבְלֵי שׁ׳, ψ 18:6 = 2 S 22:6, cf. מְצָרֵי שׁ׳ ψ 116:3; opp. (height of) שָׁמַיִם Am 9:2 Jb 11:8 ψ 139:8 + (opp. לְמָ֑עְלָ&#1492 Is 7:11 (v. supra); dark, gloomy, without return Jb 17:13 (cf. v 16 7:9; 10:21; 16:22; all being alike 3:17–19; 21:23–26); without work or knowledge or wisdom according to Ec 9:5, 6, 10 (cf. Jb 14:21, and v. רְפָאִים sub רפה; yet cf. Is 14:9f.). 2. condition of righteous and wicked disting. in שׁ׳ (later than 1 S 28, especially in WisdLt): a. wicked יָשׁוּבוּ לִשְׁא֑וֹלָה ψ 9:18, יִדְּמוּ לִשׁ׳ 31:18; death is their shepherd, without power and honour they waste away 49:15(×2); שׁ׳ consumes them as drought water Jb 24:19; righteous dread it because no praise or presence of God there (as in temple) ψ 6:6 (cf. 88:6), Is 38:18; deliverance from it a blessing ψ 30:4; 86:13 Pr 23:14. In Ezek. שׁ׳ is land below, place of reproach, abode of uncircumcised Ez 31:15, 16, 17; 32:21, 27. b. righteous shall not be abandoned, לשׁ׳ ψ 16:10 (|| שַׁחַת q.v.; opp. אֹרַח הַיִּים, etc., v 11, cf. 17:15), is ransomed from שׁ׳ 49:16 (cf. 73:23, 25 Is 57:1, 2); cf. Job’s expectation and desire Jb 14:13; 17:13 (cf. 10:21; 19:25 f.). 3. later distinction of places in שׁ׳: a. depths of שׁ׳ for sensualist Pr 9:18. b. שׁ׳ וַאֲבַדּוֹן Pr 15:11, v. אֲבַדּוֹן. [שַׁחַת and בּוֹר, q.v., when || שׁ׳, are usually in bad sense (ψ 88:4); prob. = pit in שׁ׳, > שׁ׳ itself as pit; words at least prepare for local distinctions of postB Judaism and NT.] 4. שׁ׳ fig. of extreme degradation in sin Is 57:9; as place of exile for Israel Ho 13:14(×2) (cf. Is 26:19).

Brown, Francis ; Driver, Samuel Rolles ; Briggs, Charles Augustus: Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon. electronic ed. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos Research Systems, 2000, S. 982
​

I see that you have gone to a great deal of trouble for you quotes. But you are missing the point. There is no word "Hell" in the Old Testament. Those are interpretations, not translations.

 

[Der Alte]

Luke 24:25
He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!

[SIZE=-1]When ever we read a parable, caution is required so that we do not imagine vain things. I would presume that it is the day of judgement for there to be any literal talking.[/SIZE]

A virtually meaningless generality which addresses nothing. If all you intend to do is make empty accusations by quoting random irrelevant scripture at me, count me out.

 

[JudaicChristian]

A virtually meaningless generality which addresses nothing. If all you intend to do is make empty accusations by quoting random irrelevant scripture at me, count me out.

Dear Der Alter: Please, please, buy yourself a Exhaustive Concordance.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE="-1"]Dear Der Alter: Please, please, buy yourself a Exhaustive Concordance.[/SIZE]

Why? You haven't addressed anything I posted so far. And FYI I first learned to speak Greek more than 5 decades ago, and studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level 2 decades later. I have been reading Hebrew and Greek probably longer than you have been alive. I have BAGD, BDB, TWOT, TDNT, Louw-Nida, Greek and Hebrew grammars in my personal library, as well as many electronic resources , most of which you have probably never heard of. . You repeatedly saying "Get a concordance" is totally meaningless. I doubt that you could conjugate a Greek verb, or locate a Hebrew verb if your life depended on it. If you have some specific references in mind name them or forget about it.

 

[Der Alte]

The problem with your argument about "hell" is, that is only your opinion. You have not provided any Hebrew language resources to support your argument. OTOH I have provided evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia. It is also your opinion about the "insects." Notice the passage says "hell" is stirred up, NOT the insects are stirred up. In your fanciful interpretation do the insects also speak and say things like, "Are you also become weak as we? Are you become like unto us? etc?"

†שְׁאוֹל S7585 TWOT2303c GK8619, שְׁאֹל n.f. ψ 86:13 (appar. m. Jb 26:6 cf. Is 14:9, v. AlbrZAW xvi (1896), 51) She˒ôl, underworld (√ dub.; שׁאל, i.e. place of inquiry (ref. to necromancy) JastrAm. J. Sem. Lang. xiv. 170, cf. JBL xix (1900), 88 ff. (JeremLeben n. d. Tode 109 ‘Ort der Entscheidung’); Thes BöDe Inf. § 158 Di al. cp. √ שׁעל, whence שֹׁעַל hollow hand, etc.; שׁ׳ then = hollow place, ‘Hölle’, hell; other conj. v. Hup Ps. 6:6 De Is. 5:14 BeerBibl. Hades in HoltzmannFestgabe, 1902, 15; most now refrain from positive etymology (e.g. Buhl); Old Aramaic שאול, Syriac ܫܝܽܘܠ (šyul); Assyrian šu-alu is dub.: so read and interpr. DlPa 121; Prol. 47, 145 JastrAm. J. Sem. Lang. xiv. 165 ff. Ency. Bib.s.v.; opp. by BertinTSBA viii. 269 JenKosmol. 223 ff. ZimKAT 3. 636 al.; v. also Muss-ArnoltJBL xi (1892), 169 and reff.);—always abs., שְׁאוֹל Dt 32:22 + 52 times, ה—ָ Gn 42:38 ψ 9:18; שְׁאֹל 1 K 2:6 Jb 17:16, ה—ָ Gn 37:35 + 7 times; + Is 7:11 (so read for שְׁאָ֫לָה Aq Σ Θ Du Che and now most);— 1. the underworld, שׁ׳ תַּחְתִּית Dt 32:22, מִתַּחַת Is 14:9; מִשּׁ׳ מָ֑טָּה Pr 15:24; || מָוֶת 5:5; 7:27 Ct 8:6 ψ 89:49; whither men descend at death, Gn 37:35 (E), 42:38; 44:29, 31 (J), 1 S 2:6 1 K 2:6, 9 Jb 7:9; 21:13 Is 14:11, 15 ψ 88:4, and Korah and associates go down alive by י׳’s judgment, Nu 16:30, 33 (J), cf. ψ 55:16; under mts. and sea Jb 26:6 (cf. v 5), בֶּטֶן שׁ׳ Jon 2:3 (cf. v 7); with bars Jb 17:16 (si vera l.: v. G Du); פִּי שׁ׳ ψ 141:7; שַׁעֲרֵי שׁ׳ Is 38:10; personif. Is 28:15, 18 (|| מו&#1514 as insatiable monster 5:14 Hb 2:5 Pr 1:12; 27:20; 30:16; as said (fig.) to have snares, חֶבְלֵי שׁ׳, ψ 18:6 = 2 S 22:6, cf. מְצָרֵי שׁ׳ ψ 116:3; opp. (height of) שָׁמַיִם Am 9:2 Jb 11:8 ψ 139:8 + (opp. לְמָ֑עְלָ&#1492 Is 7:11 (v. supra); dark, gloomy, without return Jb 17:13 (cf. v 16 7:9; 10:21; 16:22; all being alike 3:17–19; 21:23–26); without work or knowledge or wisdom according to Ec 9:5, 6, 10 (cf. Jb 14:21, and v. רְפָאִים sub רפה; yet cf. Is 14:9f.). 2. condition of righteous and wicked disting. in שׁ׳ (later than 1 S 28, especially in WisdLt): a. wicked יָשׁוּבוּ לִשְׁא֑וֹלָה ψ 9:18, יִדְּמוּ לִשׁ׳ 31:18; death is their shepherd, without power and honour they waste away 49:15(×2); שׁ׳ consumes them as drought water Jb 24:19; righteous dread it because no praise or presence of God there (as in temple) ψ 6:6 (cf. 88:6), Is 38:18; deliverance from it a blessing ψ 30:4; 86:13 Pr 23:14. In Ezek. שׁ׳ is land below, place of reproach, abode of uncircumcised Ez 31:15, 16, 17; 32:21, 27. b. righteous shall not be abandoned, לשׁ׳ ψ 16:10 (|| שַׁחַת q.v.; opp. אֹרַח הַיִּים, etc., v 11, cf. 17:15), is ransomed from שׁ׳ 49:16 (cf. 73:23, 25 Is 57:1, 2); cf. Job’s expectation and desire Jb 14:13; 17:13 (cf. 10:21; 19:25 f.). 3. later distinction of places in שׁ׳: a. depths of שׁ׳ for sensualist Pr 9:18. b. שׁ׳ וַאֲבַדּוֹן Pr 15:11, v. אֲבַדּוֹן. [שַׁחַת and בּוֹר, q.v., when || שׁ׳, are usually in bad sense (ψ 88:4); prob. = pit in שׁ׳, > שׁ׳ itself as pit; words at least prepare for local distinctions of postB Judaism and NT.] 4. שׁ׳ fig. of extreme degradation in sin Is 57:9; as place of exile for Israel Ho 13:14(×2) (cf. Is 26:19).

Brown, Francis ; Driver, Samuel Rolles ; Briggs, Charles Augustus: Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon. electronic ed. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos Research Systems, 2000, S. 982
​

[SIZE="-1"]I see that you have gone to a great deal of trouble for you quotes. But you are missing the point. There is no word "Hell" in the Old Testament. Those are interpretations, not translations.[/SIZE]

I see you have totally ignored the definition of "sheol" from the most highly renowned Hebrew lexicon in the world today. I realize that you have probably been taught that all your life, but that alone does NOT make it true. I am not particularly interested in the repetitious teachings of whatever religious group you belong to. I have taken the trouble to spend mopre than $100 to have the best Hebrew resource available today. You OTOH have presented nothing but your assumptions/presuppositions

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I see you have totally ignored the definition of "sheol" from the most highly renowned Hebrew lexicon in the world today. I realize that you have probably been taught that all your life, but that alone does NOT make it true. I am not particularly interested in the repetitious teachings of whatever religious group you belong to. I have taken the trouble to spend mopre than $100 to have the best Hebrew resource available today. You OTOH have presented nothing but your assumptions/presuppositions

I take it that was money well spent?

 

[JudaicChristian]

I take it that was money well spent?

It seems that I get more use out of my Strongs and NIV Exhaustive Concordances, than my Brown, Driver, and Briggs. A person can learn more from different groups of scholars. Der Alter keeps saying "sheol," but makes a claim for hell in scripture. Then he wonders why I look at him cross eyed.

 

[WarriorAngel]

What is more serious than cutting off one's hand or gouging out one's eyes?

Takers?

If gehenna or what not [hades] is just a smelly place - would it be that bad to gouge out your eye rather than go there?

 

[GuardianShua]

What is more serious than cutting off one's hand or gouging out one's eyes?

Takers?

If Gehenna or what not [hades] is just a smelly place - would it be that bad to gouge out your eye rather than go there?

Most Christians understand that scripture to be parabolic for cutting off sin from your life. Think about this: A person returns to the dust of the ground. Now when a person is called back into being by God, do they assemble incomplete? The condemned have their life taken from them for all eternity. The word "fire" is often used in a parabolic way to mean "judgement."

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE="-1"]It seems that I get more use out of my Strongs and NIV Exhaustive Concordances, than my Brown, Driver, and Briggs. A person can learn more from different groups of scholars. Der Alter keeps saying "sheol," but makes a claim for hell in scripture. Then he wonders why I look at him cross eyed[/SIZE].

A concordance only lists where words occur in the Bible, and the meaning ascribed to them by the translators. A lexicon, such as BDB, documents the meaning of words from many sources. See this on the accuracy of Strong's

Online Bible FAQ
Q:The Online Bible Strongs is not the same as my Exhaustive Strongs Concordance. Why is that?
A: We used the Strong's system but the actual Greek and Hebrew to implement the numbers. By doing this we corrected about 15000 errors in the Strong's concordance.

Online Bible North America

Rebuilding Strong’s time-honored concordance from the ground up, biblical research experts John Kohlenberger and James Swanson have achieved unprecedented accuracy and clarity. Longstanding errors have been corrected. Omissions filled in. Word studies simplified. Thoroughness and ease of use have been united and maximized.

Zondervan - The Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible - James Strong, John R. Kohlenberger III,

Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, The: 21st Century Edition - By: James Strong, John R. Kohlenberger III, James A. Swanson - Christianbook.com
​

Here once again the historical evidence for the belief in hell in ancient Judaism. You keep objecting to my arguments but I have not seen you present any evidence.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
​

 

[Der Alte]

Most Christians understand that scripture to be parabolic for cutting off sin from your life.

An assertion with no supporting evidence.

Think about this: A person returns to the dust of the ground. Now when a person is called back into being by God, do they assemble incomplete? The condemned have their life taken from them for all eternity. The word "fire" is often used in a parabolic way to mean "judgement."

Re: "fire", another assertion with no supporting evidence.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Just a judgement?
And why be judged if their is no punishment??
What's the point of judgement if there are no options preceeding to base the judgement on?

Answers?



Here are a few passages to chew on:

2 Thessalonians 1
9 Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

Ecclesiasticus 1
2 Who hath numbered the sand of the sea, and the drops of rain, and the days of the world? Who hath measured the height of heaven, and the breadth of the earth, and the depth of the abyss?

WHAT ABYSS???
The one created for the fallen angels and satan...

Luke 8
31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go into the abyss.

And so - who else will go that place???

Matthew 25
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.



And going back to the REASON there is a JUDGEMENT to begin with is this...

Matthew 25
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.


IS Jesus a Liar?

1 John 5
10 He that believeth in the Son of God, hath the testimony of God in himself. He that believeth not the Son, maketh him a liar: because he believeth not in the testimony which God hath testified of his Son.

 

[JudaicChristian]

An assertion with no supporting evidence.



Re: "fire", another assertion with no supporting evidence.

A concordance only lists where words occur in the Bible, and the meaning ascribed to them by the translators. A lexicon, such as BDB, documents the meaning of words from many sources. See this on the accuracy of Strong's

Online Bible FAQ
Q:The Online Bible Strongs is not the same as my Exhaustive Strongs Concordance. Why is that?
A: We used the Strong's system but the actual Greek and Hebrew to implement the numbers. By doing this we corrected about 15000 errors in the Strong's concordance.

Online Bible North America

Rebuilding Strong’s time-honored concordance from the ground up, biblical research experts John Kohlenberger and James Swanson have achieved unprecedented accuracy and clarity. Longstanding errors have been corrected. Omissions filled in. Word studies simplified. Thoroughness and ease of use have been united and maximized.

Zondervan - The Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible - James Strong, John R. Kohlenberger III,

Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, The: 21st Century Edition - By: James Strong, John R. Kohlenberger III, James A. Swanson - Christianbook.com
​

Here once again the historical evidence for the belief in hell in ancient Judaism. You keep objecting to my arguments but I have not seen you present any evidence.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
​

The book of Enoch is a divinely inspired book. However, it also has many Gnostic corruptions in it.
How many examples do you guys need to get the big picture?
Deuteronomy 32:22. For a fire has been kindled by my wrath,
one that burns to the realm of Sheol below.
Psalm 89:46
How long, O LORD ? Will you hide yourself forever? How long will your wrath burn like fire?
Psalm 104:4
He makes winds his messengers, flames of fire his servants.
Isaiah 4:4
The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.

There is not one single place in the Old Testament where the word "hell" actually occurs. The word "Sheol" literally means grave. What part of the word parable do you not understand.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Just a judgement?
And why be judged if their is no punishment??
What's the point of judgement if there are no options preceeding to base the judgement on?

Answers?



Here are a few passages to chew on:

2 Thessalonians 1
9 Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

Ecclesiasticus 1
2 Who hath numbered the sand of the sea, and the drops of rain, and the days of the world? Who hath measured the height of heaven, and the breadth of the earth, and the depth of the abyss?

WHAT ABYSS???
The one created for the fallen angels and satan...

Luke 8
31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go into the abyss.

And so - who else will go that place???

Matthew 25
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.



And going back to the REASON there is a JUDGEMENT to begin with is this...

Matthew 25
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.


IS Jesus a Liar?

1 John 5
10 He that believeth in the Son of God, hath the testimony of God in himself. He that believeth not the Son, maketh him a liar: because he believeth not in the testimony which God hath testified of his Son.

The word "abyss" means: Deep unknown.

 

[Der Alte]

The book of Enoch is a divinely inspired book. However, it also has many Gnostic corruptions in it.

I note you ignored all the other scripture highlighted in the article I posted. And you are not aware that what I posted is only a small part of a much longer article. Also you have not even begun to address the documented fact that the ancient Jews, before the time of Jesus, believed in a place of eternal, unending punishment for the wicked and that Jesus' teaching clearly reflected that belief.

How many examples do you guys need to get the big picture?
Deuteronomy 32:22. For a fire has been kindled by my wrath,
one that burns to the realm of Sheol below.

Psalm 89:46
How long, O LORD ? Will you hide yourself forever? How long will your wrath burn like fire?
Psalm 104:4
He makes winds his messengers, flames of fire his servants.
Isaiah 4:4
The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.

What exactly are your "examples" supposed to prove. They certainly do NOT prove anything about the article I posted. And Isa 4:4 does not indicate that fire=judgment.

[SIZE="-1"] There is not one single place in the Old Testament where the word "hell" actually occurs. The word "Sheol" literally means grave. What part of the word parable do you not understand.[/SIZE]

What part of "irrelevant" do you not understand? You are correct the English word "hell" does NOT occur in either the Hebrew O.T. or the Greek N.T. but that does NOT mean that the concept is not found in the Bible. As I have proved the ancient Jews, before Christ, believed in a place of eternal, unending punishment. And the Hebrew words "sheol" and "gehenna'" came to represent that place. See article posted above and full article at Jewish Encyclopedia

And here are 2 passages of scripture, God speaking, which show the dead, in "sheol," experiencing some kind of conscious awareness, speaking and moving, etc.

Isa 14:9 Hell [sheol] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.​

When the king of Babylon died there was a lot of moving, meeting, stirring, raising, and speaking in sheol, the place of the dead.

Eze 32:21-31
(21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell[sheol] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
[ . . . ]
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and be comforted. over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

 

[Der Alte]

Just a judgement?
And why be judged if their is no punishment??
What's the point of judgement if there are no options preceeding to base the judgement on?

Answers?

Here are a few passages to chew on:

2 Thessalonians 1
9 Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

Ecclesiasticus 1
2 Who hath numbered the sand of the sea, and the drops of rain, and the days of the world? Who hath measured the height of heaven, and the breadth of the earth, and the depth of the abyss?

WHAT ABYSS???
The one created for the fallen angels and satan...

Luke 8
31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go into the abyss.

And so - who else will go that place???

Matthew 25
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

And going back to the REASON there is a JUDGEMENT to begin with is this...

Matthew 25
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

IS Jesus a Liar?

1 John 5
10 He that believeth in the Son of God, hath the testimony of God in himself. He that believeth not the Son, maketh him a liar: because he believeth not in the testimony which God hath testified of his Son.

The word "abyss" means: Deep unknown.

What is your point JC?

 

[JudaicChristian]

What is your point JC?

Der Alter, I have been addressing your scripture. The eternal punishment is the eternal fire, which is the eternal judgement. The word FIRE is parabolic. You have also been quoting me Gnostic curruptions. I do not believe in Gnosticism or Paganism.