There is no hell.

[JudaicChristian]

What is your point JC?

Lets take a look at one of your quotes here.
Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);...
The part marked in red is the part in error. Gehenna is a figure of speech for "DISTRUCTION," not hell.

 

[Der Alte]

Lets take a look at one of your quotes here.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);...

The part marked in red is the part in error. Gehenna is a figure of speech for "DISTRUCTION," not hell.

Can you not see your own arrogance and pride? That is a quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia, published in 1917, probably at least 40 years before you were born. It was researched, compiled and edited by more than 40 Hebrew rabbis and scholars, all of whom spoke and read Hebrew from birth. The article I posted included many, many references to scripture and other ancient Jewish writings. I think I can say without any fear of contradiction that you could not locate a Hebrew verb if your life depended on it. In fact you probably do not even know what that means. And you are going to say that you know more than all those scholars, and you are going try to argue with their documented evidence? Please give us all a break.

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter, I have been addressing your scripture. The eternal punishment is the eternal fire, which is the eternal judgement. The word FIRE is parabolic. You have also been quoting me Gnostic curruptions. I do not believe in Gnosticism or Paganism.

I don't much care what you do or do not believe in, please get your facts straight. I have NEVER quoted Gnostic corruptions. I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia which did include some references to books which which the Jews consider authoritative but which Christians do not. When you have acquired the requisite degrees, experiences, and peer acceptance then I might concede you determination concerning the reliability of cited references. But you keep ignoring that the article had many citations from the O.T. books which Christian do consider scripture.

You have not been addressing my scripture. You have been posting scripture without indicating how you think it relates to the scripture I have listed. Playing, "My scripture trumps your scripture" is not a valid argument.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The word "abyss" means: Deep unknown.

So?

Eternal - means everlasting - no end - non stop - forever...

Matthew 25
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

This is not symbolic..it is a place that was PREPARED for the devil and his angels.

I do not know where you get the idea that everything is exaggerated or parabolic, or symbolic, but it is NOT.

God prepared - built - made - created a place for the devil and those who do evil will also go to that place...HE SAID IT - I BELIEVE IT.

Is Jesus a liar?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Der Alter, I have been addressing your scripture. The eternal punishment is the eternal fire, which is the eternal judgement. The word FIRE is parabolic. You have also been quoting me Gnostic curruptions. I do not believe in Gnosticism or Paganism.

If we are judged for eternal punishment - then that is hell. Hell is punishment.
We are not going to sit on a judgement seat for all eternity waiting for the decree.
Judgement is an action - not a place. And it doesn't last forever. WE ARE judged - the decree is eternal, therefore it is an eternal judgement that does not change.

Gnostic?
What is gnostic?
Do you know?

Gnosticism never made it into the canon. It was post Jesus writings on what they deemed hidden of the Christ. Written usually around AD 200.
Pretty much fairy tale.
You do know that, correct?

 

[JohnDB]

Lets try this another way...

God is omnipotent. Meaning all power comes from God...God is the creator of any and all power...and completely perfectly efficient with that use of power or else He isn't omnipotent, omnicient, or Sovereign.

God is also omnipresent. Meaning that God is everywhere at all times. There isn't anyplace in Heaven or Earth that God is not existant. But hell is rightly described as a position that is outside of God's presence.

So...either God is himself in Hell...and even if I go there I will rejoice in his presence albeit in the form of flames...or God is not Omnipresent.

Maybe all the language describing the burning in Hell is more in line with the burning of a person's heart and concience finally realizing that they never ever once took up the cause of true goodness...and therefore they have no place with God...and God, the Giver of all life, withdraws their existance and expends no more power on their life.

IOW...Hell is real...it is a position and not so much a location.

 

[WarriorAngel]

God is not limited to our understanding.
And hell is HIS [ownership] Justice on those who do not believe in Him.

Free will allows all humanity to deny Him - and in doing so they are eternally denied His Peace, His Presense, His Love.

He is all knowing and He knows what goes on in hell... but it is a seperation from Him.
He created the abyss... He said the abyss was eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Is Jesus a liar?

God made a firmanent in the sky as a division, but that cannot deny Him access to knowing all things on earth.
His KNOWING is His Presense.
He is everywhere because He is all KNOWING.

That doesn't mean He has to literally sit down in hell to be there.

 

[JohnDB]

Can you quote me any scriptural evidense that Jesus said such a thing?

And you do know that this position I am proposing here is also held by your Orthodox Catholic bretheren?

 

[JudaicChristian]

Can you not see your own arrogance and pride? That is a quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia, published in 1917, probably at least 40 years before you were born. It was researched, compiled and edited by more than 40 Hebrew rabbis and scholars, all of whom spoke and read Hebrew from birth. The article I posted included many, many references to scripture and other ancient Jewish writings. I think I can say without any fear of contradiction that you could not locate a Hebrew verb if your life depended on it. In fact you probably do not even know what that means. And you are going to say that you know more than all those scholars, and you are going try to argue with their documented evidence? Please give us all a break.

This may come as a surprise to you, but since 1917 many corrections have been made to the scriptures. People and scholars are a lot smarter then people in those days. Your information is in error, Orthodox Judaism has never believed in hell. The only Jews who believed in hell were the Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews. And that is why you do not find the word hell in the Old Testament. The word Sheol literally means grave. The trans-literal for Sheol into English is grave. Hell is from the Pagan religion. Please take the time to study the word hell.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Hades was the name of the Greek god of the underworld and the name of the underworld itself. Gehenna is the Greek form of two Hebrew words ge hinnom meaning “valley of Hinnom.” The term originally referred to a ravine on the south side of Jerusalem where pagan deities were worshiped; It became a garbage dump and a place of abomination where fire burned continuously.

 

[Yab Yum]

So?

Eternal - means everlasting - no end - non stop - forever...

Actually that is the meaning of "sempiternal". Eternal means "outside of time".

 

[Der Alte]

This may come as a surprise to you, but since 1917 many corrections have been made to the scriptures. People and scholars are a lot smarter then people in those days. Your information is in error, Orthodox Judaism has never believed in hell. The only Jews who believed in hell were the Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews. And that is why you do not find the word hell in the Old Testament. The word Sheol literally means grave. The trans-literal for Sheol into English is grave. Hell is from the Pagan religion. Please take the time to study the word hell.

This may come as a surprise to you, there have been NO, ZERO, NONE corrections to the scripture. You need to get out of whatever intense indoctrination you are slaving under and read real historical information. For example, in 1948 the Qumran/Dead Sea scrolls were discovered dating to 100 BC. The scrolls showed that we have in our hands essentially the same O.T. which the Jews used in the Holy Land before the time of Jesus.

What has happened is that every false teaching group which ever came along, such as the one you are affiliated with, has reinterpreted scripture to make it line up with their teachings.

I presented evidence written by Jews for Jews, based on Jewish historical writings. You continue to post your own assertions, assumptions, and presuppositions, with ZERO evidence. Such as your claim about "Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews" If this were true then the Jewish Encyclopedia would have mentioned it, either in a positive or negative way. I am not interested in whatever slander, false accusations, gossip, rumors, etc. you have been taught by your leaders. What I have repeatedly asked for, and you have failed to provide, is credible, verifiable, historical evidence

And that is why you do not find the word hell in the Old Testament. The word Sheol literally means grave. The trans-literal for Sheol into English is grave. Hell is from the Pagan religion. Please take the time to study the word hell.

I have addressed this more than once. While it is true that "sheol" originally meant "grave." and "gehenna" originally identified the valley of Hinnom, both came to represent the final place of eternal, unending punishment for the unrighteous, in Judaism, long before the Christian era, see citation from Jewish Encyclopedia, above. So your definitions are meaningless, no matter how many times you repeat them. You should get out of your indoctrination and do a study, for yourself, on the latter meaning of "sheol" and "gehenna."

[SIZE=-1]Hades was the name of the Greek god of the underworld and the name of the underworld itself. Gehenna is the Greek form of two Hebrew words ge hinnom meaning “valley of Hinnom.” The term originally referred to a ravine on the south side of Jerusalem where pagan deities were worshiped; It became a garbage dump and a place of abomination where fire burned continuously.

You are only partly correct, "sheol" did originally mean "grave." and "gehenna" originally identified the valley of Hinnom, however, both came to represent the final place of eternal, unending punishment for the unrighteous in Judaism, long before the Christian era. Ignoring these historical facts makes your partial information false.[/SIZE]

 

[JudaicChristian]

This may come as a surprise to you, there have been NO, ZERO, NONE corrections to the scripture. You need to get out of whatever intense indoctrination you are slaving under and read real historical information. For example, in 1948 the Qumran/Dead Sea scrolls were discovered dating to 100 BC. The scrolls showed that we have in our hands essentially the same O.T. which the Jews used in the Holy Land before the time of Jesus.

What has happened is that every false teaching group which ever came along, such as the one you are affiliated with, has reinterpreted scripture to make it line up with their teachings.

I presented evidence written by Jews for Jews, based on Jewish historical writings. You continue to post your own assertions, assumptions, and presuppositions, with ZERO evidence. Such as your claim about "Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews" If this were true then the Jewish Encyclopedia would have mentioned it, either in a positive or negative way. I am not interested in whatever slander, false accusations, gossip, rumors, etc. you have been taught by your leaders. What I have repeatedly asked for, and you have failed to provide, is credible, verifiable, historical evidence



I have addressed this more than once. While it is true that "sheol" originally meant "grave." and "gehenna" originally identified the valley of Hinnom, both came to represent the final place of eternal, unending punishment for the unrighteous, in Judaism, long before the Christian era, see citation from Jewish Encyclopedia, above. So your definitions are meaningless, no matter how many times you repeat them. You should get out of your indoctrination and do a study, for yourself, on the latter meaning of "sheol" and "gehenna."



You are only partly correct, "sheol" did originally mean "grave." and "gehenna" originally identified the valley of Hinnom, however, both came to represent the final place of eternal, unending punishment for the unrighteous in Judaism, long before the Christian era. Ignoring these historical facts makes your partial information false.

IS GOD A LIAR? IF GOD TAKES AWAY THEIR LIFE, THEN HOW IS THAT THEY ARE ALIVE IN HELL? THE SECOND DEATH IS THE DEATH OF THE SPIRIT. NO SPIRIT. NO LIFE.

 

[JudaicChristian]

God is not limited to our understanding.
And hell is HIS [ownership] Justice on those who do not believe in Him.

Free will allows all humanity to deny Him - and in doing so they are eternally denied His Peace, His Presense, His Love.

He is all knowing and He knows what goes on in hell... but it is a seperation from Him.
He created the abyss... He said the abyss was eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Is Jesus a liar?

God made a firmanent in the sky as a division, but that cannot deny Him access to knowing all things on earth.
His KNOWING is His Presense.
He is everywhere because He is all KNOWING.

That doesn't mean He has to literally sit down in hell to be there.

Yahwah is not the God of hell.

 

[Der Alte]

This may come as a surprise to you, there have been NO, ZERO, NONE corrections to the scripture. You need to get out of whatever intense indoctrination you are slaving under and read real historical information. For example, in 1948 the Qumran/Dead Sea scrolls were discovered dating to 100 BC. The scrolls showed that we have in our hands essentially the same O.T. which the Jews used in the Holy Land before the time of Jesus.

What has happened is that every false teaching group which ever came along, such as the one you are affiliated with, has reinterpreted scripture to make it line up with their teachings.

I presented evidence written by Jews for Jews, based on Jewish historical writings. You continue to post your own assertions, assumptions, and presuppositions, with ZERO evidence. Such as your claim about "Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews" If this were true then the Jewish Encyclopedia would have mentioned it, either in a positive or negative way. I am not interested in whatever slander, false accusations, gossip, rumors, etc. you have been taught by your leaders. What I have repeatedly asked for, and you have failed to provide, is credible, verifiable, historical evidence.

I have addressed this more than once. While it is true that "sheol" originally meant "grave." and "gehenna" originally identified the valley of Hinnom, both came to represent the final place of eternal, unending punishment for the unrighteous, in Judaism, long before the Christian era, see citation from Jewish Encyclopedia, above. So your definitions are meaningless, no matter how many times you repeat them. You should get out of your indoctrination and do a study, for yourself, on the latter meaning of "sheol" and "gehenna."

You are only partly correct, "sheol" did originally mean "grave." and "gehenna" originally identified the valley of Hinnom, however, both came to represent the final place of eternal, unending punishment for the unrighteous in Judaism, long before the Christian era. Ignoring these historical facts makes your partial information false.

IS GOD A LIAR? IF GOD TAKES AWAY THEIR LIFE, THEN HOW IS THAT THEY ARE ALIVE IN HELL? THE SECOND DEATH IS THE DEATH OF THE SPIRIT. NO SPIRIT. NO LIFE.

Do you think that if you repeat your same ol, same ol' unsupported assertions in all caps, that somehow makes it true?

Rev 14:9-11
(9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

A gazillion years from now the word of God will still say, "the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night." They will experience some kind of conscious awareness.

I have already posted O.T. scripture where God speaking describes the dead moving and speaking in "sheol."

 

[JudaicChristian]

Do you think that if you repeat your same ol, same ol' unsupported assertions in all caps, that somehow makes it true?

Rev 14:9-11
(9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

A gazillion years from now the word of God will still say, "the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night." They will experience some kind of conscious awareness.

I have already posted O.T. scripture where God speaking describes the dead moving and speaking in "sheol."

You are to literal Der Alter. You do understand that you are reading a parable? Yes/No What does it mean if I say that they will suffer from an eternal fire? Or, The smoke their punishment ascends forever?
Hebrews 3:18
And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed ?

Hebrews 4:1
[ A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God ] Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

Psalm 95:11
So I declared on oath in my anger, "They shall never enter my rest."

Hebrews 3:11
So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.' "

Hebrews 4:3
Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.' "

Hebrews 4:5
And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."

 

[Der Alte]

You are to literal Der Alter. You do understand that you are reading a parable? Yes/No What does it mean if I say that they will suffer from an eternal fire? Or, The smoke their punishment ascends forever?

Maybe you are being too literal in your interpretation of the vss. you posted? And have you ever noticed how many people, as you have just done, any time a vs., as written, does NOT support or contradicts their teachings simply dismiss it as SPAM-Fig, i.e. symbolic, poetic/parabolic, allegory, metaphor, or figurative, or some other figure of speech. If we listened to all the different groups, LDS, JW, OP, SDA, WWCG, MJ, kristadelfian, etc. almost the entire Bible is SPAM-Fig.

Yes they will suffer from eternal fire, the smoke of their torment will ascend up for ever and ever, and they will have no rest day or night. Note the repetition of the word "ever." Here are 2 more vss. in Rev which uses the phrase "day and night"

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

This can only be interpreted as unending, never ceasing.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.​

As I said before a gazillion years from now God's unchanging word will still say, "they rest not day or night."

Now let us compare the phrase "for ever and ever." in Rev 14:11.

Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,​

"For ever and ever," does NOT indicate a finite period of time which will eventually end.

Now once more the phrase, "the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever:" As I said before if those being tormented cease to exist, at some point, then the smoke is no longer theirs, and is of no concern to them or anybody else. And despite your objection, smoke does NOT ascend for ever and ever once the fire has stopped. At some point it will stop rising and dissipate, and after some point is indistinguishable from any other part of the atmosphere. And of course nothing continues to rise outside the atmosphere of the earth. John was not wasting his time wrongly describing the physical properties of smoke which was of no concern to anybody, any time, any where. Here is what John said and what he meant.

If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

They will continue to experience some kind of conscious awareness and they will be tormented for ever and ever, unending, without ceasing. The fire they experience will never stop burning and the smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever, unending, without ceasing, and they have no rest day or night. See other vss. which use the same language.

Hebrews 3:18
And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed ?

Hebrews 4:1
[ A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God ] Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

Psalm 95:11
So I declared on oath in my anger, "They shall never enter my rest."

Hebrews 3:11
So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.' "

Hebrews 4:3
Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.' "

Hebrews 4:5
And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."

None of these disprove the literal translation of Rev 14:9-11.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Maybe you are being too literal in your interpretation of the vss. you posted? And have you ever noticed how many people, as you have just done, any time a vs., as written, does NOT support or contradicts their teachings simply dismiss it as SPAM-Fig, i.e. symbolic, poetic/parabolic, allegory, metaphor, or figurative, or some other figure of speech. If we listened to all the different groups, LDS, JW, OP, SDA, WWCG, MJ, kristadelfian, etc. almost the entire Bible is SPAM-Fig.

Yes they will suffer from eternal fire, the smoke of their torment will ascend up for ever and ever, and they will have no rest day or night. Note the repetition of the word "ever." Here are 2 more vss. in Rev which uses the phrase "day and night"

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

This can only be interpreted as unending, never ceasing.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.​

As I said before a gazillion years from now God's unchanging word will still say, "they rest not day or night."

Now let us compare the phrase "for ever and ever." in Rev 14:11.

Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,​

"For ever and ever," does NOT indicate a finite period of time which will eventually end.

Now once more the phrase, "the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever:" As I said before if those being tormented cease to exist, at some point, then the smoke is no longer theirs, and is of no concern to them or anybody else. And despite your objection, smoke does NOT ascend for ever and ever once the fire has stopped. At some point it will stop rising and dissipate, and after some point is indistinguishable from any other part of the atmosphere. And of course nothing continues to rise outside the atmosphere of the earth. John was not wasting his time wrongly describing the physical properties of smoke which was of no concern to anybody, any time, any where. Here is what John said and what he meant.

If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

They will continue to experience some kind of conscious awareness and they will be tormented for ever and ever, unending, without ceasing. The fire they experience will never stop burning and the smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever, unending, without ceasing, and they have no rest day or night. See other vss. which use the same language.



None of these disprove the literal translation of Rev 14:9-11.

The terminology "day and night" only means "continually." There is no literal day or night in what is called hell. So then, you worship a God who tortures living beings for all eternity, and without any mercy? Now what kind of God would do that, or have any need to do so. The way I see it is, that the second death of the spirit means no life. Since there is scripture that contradicts other scripture on the subject; that would mean that possibly a parable is in use. Hello..

Hosea 4:5. You stumble day and night,
and the prophets stumble with you.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Now let us compare the phrase "for ever and ever." in Rev 14:11.

Anyone ever notice the greek wording of "ages ages" in Reve 14:11 and the rest of the places it is used in Revelation?

The article "the" is missing from Reve 14:11 whereas in the other places, such as 20:11, the article the is used twice and before the word for ages ages.
Just thought that was interesting and saw it when translating Revelation from the greek texts awhile back. I decided to use it in my Siggy according to my view of it ehehe

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 14:11 And the Smoke of the tormenting of them into Ages of Ages is ascending. And not they are having rest of Day and of Night the Ones worshipping the Beast ....................

eiV <1519> aiwnaV <165> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 20:10 And the Devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the Lake of the fire and of sulfur, the where also the Beast and the False-prophet. And they shall be being tormented of day and of night into the Ages of the Ages.

eiV <1519> touV <3588> aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

 

[Der Alte]

The terminology "day and night" only means "continually." There is no literal day or night in what is called hell.

NO, ZERO, NONE evidence. Just your unsupported opinion!

So then, you worship a God who tortures living beings for all eternity, and without any mercy? Now what kind of God would do that, or have any need to do so.

I worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of Jesus. I am not the least bit interested in your secular humanistic rationalizations to make God fit your assumptions/presuppositions while you continue to present your opinion and zero evidence.

The way I see it is, that the second death of the spirit means no life. Since there is scripture that contradicts other scripture on the subject; that would mean that possibly a parable is in use. Hello..

There is no scripture that contradicts other scripture on any subject. The way you "see" anything is totally irrelevant.

Hosea 4:5. You stumble day and night,
and the prophets stumble with you.

Pre-judgment, describing an occurrence in this lifetime and Rev. is post-judgment, describing something man does not have any direct knowledge of.