There is no hell.

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=+1]There is more than one passage of scripture which mention some kind of conscious awareness after death. In these two passages God himself is speaking.

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.​

When the king of Babylon died there was a lot of moving, meeting, stirring, raising, and speaking in sheol, the place of the dead.

Eze 32:21-31
(21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
[ . . . ]
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and be comforted. over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Dear Der Alter, please do all of us a favor and get yourself an Exhaustive Concordance.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Why? I first learned to speak Greek the year of Sputnik I, and studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level 2 decades later. I have several hard bound language resources in my personal library. BDB, BAGD, TWOT, TDNT, Louw-Nida, and many many, electronic resources. I have NOT seen any meaningful interaction with any of the scripture I have posted.[/SIZE]

 

[Gary51]

My understanding of hell is that it was an invention of the RCC to frighten the illiterate masses into coming to chruch in order to keep the Church coffers full.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and be comforted. over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

Why? I first learned to speak Greek the year of Sputnik I, and studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level 2 decades later. I have several hard bound language resources in my personal library. BDB, BAGD, TWOT, TDNT, Louw-Nida, and many many, electronic resources. I have NOT seen any meaningful interaction with any of the scripture I have posted.

Hi there. I also love studying the Biblical Greek and Hebrew and have been doing so for about 6 years.
I like doing word studies in the NT/NC and comparing them to the OT/OC.

One thing I found interesting is the greek word used for "pharisee". It seems to come from the root word for "pharaoh" and they became a type of "Egptians" with the High Priest as a type of "Pharaoh".

I also view them [along with the Sadducees/High Priesthood] in the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation along with the OC City of Jerusalem and the Temple. Thoughts?

Exodus 7:11 And Pharaoh however is calling to wise-men and to ones making enchantments/03784 kashaph and they are doing even they sacred scribes of Egypt in occultisms of them so.

Matthew 12:14 And the Pharisees/far-isaioi <5330> having gone forth, held a consultation against Him, how they might destroy Him

Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's/faraw <5328> daughter

Revelation 9:21 And not they reform out of the murders of them, nor out from their Sorceries/far-makeiwn <5331>,....

5330. Pharisaios of Hebrew origin (c a separatist, i.e. exclusively religious; a Pharisean, i.e. Jewish sectary:--Pharisee.
5328. Pharao far-ah-o' of foreign origin (6547); Pharao (i.e. Pharoh), an Egyptian king:--Pharaoh.
2447. ios ee-os' perhaps from eimi (to go) or hiemi (to send); rust (as if emitted by metals); also venom (as emitted by serpents):--poison, rust. AV - poison 2, rust 1; 3

 

[JudaicChristian]

[SIZE=+1]Why? I first learned to speak Greek the year of Sputnik I, and studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level 2 decades later. I have several hard bound language resources in my personal library. BDB, BAGD, TWOT, TDNT, Louw-Nida, and many many, electronic resources. I have NOT seen any meaningful interaction with any of the scripture I have posted.[/SIZE]

I do not think your brown driver or twot has done you any good, because you are not paying attention to them.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]My understanding of hell is that it was an invention of the RCC to frighten the illiterate masses into coming to chruch in order to keep the Church coffers full.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=+1]Yes, I have heard that too, but I have never seen any credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support it. OTOH I have posted evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia showing that the ancient Jews, believed in a place of eternal punishment, centuries before the RCC existed. But there are a lot of folks that would rather believe what their leaders tell them, than what the evidence shows.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Please note that those who claim there is no place of eternal punishment always quote this passage out-of-context.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.​

This passage is not speaking of the eternal condition of the dead, but death as it appears to mortal man. Note it refers to things done "under the sun." If it means the eternal condition of the dead then even the righteous do not receive any more reward, after death, vs. 5. Even the ancient Jews before and during the time of Jesus knew there was a place of eternal punishment for the unrepentant.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, &#913;&#955;&#951;&#952;&#949;&#953;&#962; &#921;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#961;&#953;&#945;&#953;, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
​

[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]There is more than one passage of scripture which mention some kind of conscious awareness after death. In these two passages God himself is speaking.

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.​

When the king of Babylon died there was a lot of moving, meeting, stirring, raising, and speaking in sheol, the place of the dead.

Eze 32:21-31
(21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
[ . . . ]
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and be comforted. over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

[/SIZE]

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]I do not think your brown driver or twot has done you any good, because you are not paying attention to them.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]I am not too interested in what you "think." I doubt you even know what the BDB or TWOT are. You have not produced any evidence of any kind to support your claim. Merely saying the equivalent of "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!," over and over and over does NOT make it true. And you have ignored my evidence from the JE showing that the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, believed in a place of eternal punishment.[/SIZE]

 

[RND]

[SIZE=+1] And you have ignored my evidence from the JE showing that the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, believed in a place of eternal punishment.[/SIZE]

I don't know that quoting the Talmud to get a "picture" of what the Jews thought about "hell" is such a good idea frankly - considering many of the Jewish beliefs were adopted from pagan cultures. Also, the Jewish source provided did not list the modern day (that is in Jesus' day) usage of Gehenna as being the Valley of Hinnom where the refuse and waste of Jerusalem was burned continually.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Are you trying to be cleaver or what? The wicked will not be remembered personally, and yet there will be contempt.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Revelation 20: They will be tormented (or punished) day and night for ever and ever.[/size] [SIZE=-1]This only means that their judgement is final[/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=+1]Notice how you have to change the meaning of scripture to make it say what you want it to? This is a very common practice of all false religious groups. Why not let scripture say what it says, "They will be tormented (or punished) day and night for ever and ever."

[SIZE=+1]The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.[/size]

[SIZE=-1]The word "fire" is parabolic for "judgement." [SIZE=+1][NO, ZERO, NONE evidence, just your assumptions/presuppositions!][/SIZE] Death and Hades (the grave) are done away with. We do not worship a God who is without mercy and torments beings for all eternity. You need to understand that there is a difference between literal and symbolic.[/SIZE]

While "hades" has physical properties and could conceivably be thrown somewhere, the same cannot be said of "death." Death is the punctiliar cessation of life, it cannot be thrown anywhere. Someone might say that one is literal the other is figurative, but that is equivocation. There is a scriptural answer which does NOT require supposition.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

In this verse the angel of death and the demon of hell are unleashed on the earth. In 20:14 their powers are taken away and they are cast into the LOF. The angel of death appears in scripture at least twice before. In Exodus when the first born are killed, and in Ezekiel chap. 9.[/SIZE]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't know that quoting the Talmud to get a "picture" of what the Jews thought about "hell" is such a good idea frankly - considering many of the Jewish beliefs were adopted from pagan cultures. Also, the Jewish source provided did not list the modern day (that is in Jesus' day) usage of Gehenna as being the Valley of Hinnom where the refuse and waste of Jerusalem was burned continually.

Perhaps we could start a thread on "gehenna"? Of course I would like to also use the Covenantle parable of the "richman/lazarus".

Originally Posted by Gary51 My understanding of hell is that it was an invention of the RCC to frighten the illiterate masses into coming to chruch in order to keep the Church coffers full.

Perhaps the view of eternal hell of the early RCC came from that parable?

Matt 23:33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067> "

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me that I am being pained in the Flame this."

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]I don't know that quoting the Talmud to get a "picture" of what the Jews thought about "hell" is such a good idea frankly - considering many of the Jewish beliefs were adopted from pagan cultures. Also, the Jewish source provided did not list the modern day (that is in Jesus' day) usage of Gehenna as being the Valley of Hinnom where the refuse and waste of Jerusalem was burned continually.[/SIZE]

Which shows that you did NOT even read my post. You have NOT given any evidence that, "many of the Jewish beliefs were adopted from pagan cultures." Nor have you provided any evidence that, "the modern day (that is in Jesus' day) usage of Gehenna as being the Valley of Hinnom where the refuse and waste of Jerusalem was burned continually."

May I suggest that you actually read the article, paying particular attention to the red highlights and the blue highlights which show the scripture from which the beliefs derived, i.e. NOT paganism. Let me know if you plan to actually read the article and address it?

 

[RND]

Which shows that you did NOT even read my post.

I read it. That's why I was able to suggest that quoting from the BabylonianTalmud was probably not a good idea.

You have NOT given any evidence that, "many of the Jewish beliefs were adopted from pagan cultures."

That's because the Bible is full of evidence that the COI adopted the gods and goddesses of the pagan cultures and religious ideas of it's neighbors. I mean seriously. If the COI were willing to sacrifice their children to Molech in the Valley of Himmon don't you think that alone is evidence of adopting pagan beliefs?

Nor have you provided any evidence that, "the modern day (that is in Jesus' day) usage of Gehenna as being the Valley of Hinnom where the refuse and waste of Jerusalem was burned continually."

This is a fairly standard view that virtually all Bible theologians can attest to.

Gehenna - Eastons Bible Dictionary Online

This valley afterwards became the common receptacle for all the refuse of the city. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and all kinds of filth, were cast and consumed by fire kept always burning. It thus in process of time became the image of the place of everlasting destruction.

GEHENNA in the Bible Encyclopedia - ISBE (Bible History Online)

Gehenna is a transliteration from the Aramaic form of the Hebrew ge-hinnom, "valley of Hinnom." This latter form, however, is rare in the Old Testament, the prevailing name being "the valley of the son of Hinnom." Septuagint usually translates; where it transliterates the form is different from Gehenna and varies. In the New Testament the correct form is Gee'nna with the accent on the penult, not Ge'enna. There is no reason to assume that Hinnom is other than a plain patronymic, although it has been proposed to find in it the corruption of the name of an idol (EB, II, 2071). In the New Testament (King James Version margin) Gehenna occurs in Mt 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mk 9:43,15,47; Lk 12:5; Jas 3:6. In all of these it designates the place of eternal punishment of the wicked, generally in connection with the final judgment. It is associated with fire as the source of torment. Both body and soul are cast into it. This is not to be explained on the principle that the New Testament speaks metaphorically of the state after death in terms of the body; it presupposes the resurrection. In the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American) Gehenna is rendered by "hell" (see ESCHATOLOGY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT). That "the valley of Hinnom" became the technical designation for the place of final punishment was due to two causes. In the first place the valley had been the seat of the idolatrous worship of Molech, to whom children were immolated by fire (2 Ch 28:3; 33:6). Secondly, on account of these practices the place was defiled by King Josiah (2 Ki 23:10), and became in consequence associated in prophecy with the judgment to be visited upon the people (Jer 7:32). The fact, also, that the city's offal was collected there may have helped to render the name synonymous with extreme defilement. Topographically the identification of the valley of Hinnom is still uncertain. It has been in turn identified with the depression on the western and southern side of Jerusalem, with the middle valley, and with the valley to the E. Compare EB, II, 2071; DCG, I, 636; RE3, VI.
Geerhardus Vos

Bibliography Information
Orr, James, M.A., D.D. General Editor. "Definition for 'GEHENNA'". "International Standard Bible Encyclopedia". bible-history.com - ISBE; 1915.

Your protests frankly seem quite silly.

May I suggest that you actually read the article, paying particular attention to the red highlights and the blue highlights which show the scripture from which the beliefs derived, i.e. NOT paganism.

If your local newspaper reports on the facts of a case involving a serial killer is that to say that the serial killers beliefs were derived from the paper or possibly another source?

The Bible accurately reported that the COI got many of their beliefs from "pagan" sources.

Let me know if you plan to actually read the article and address it?

I have no plan to address you post from any other angle than what I have taken.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1] I read it. That's why I was able to suggest that quoting from the BabylonianTalmud was probably not a good idea. [/SIZE]

And you keep repeating your mantra about the Talmud without addressing any of the scripture.

[SIZE=-1]That's because the Bible is full of evidence that the COI adopted the gods and goddesses of the pagan cultures and religious ideas of it's neighbors. I mean seriously. If the COI were willing to sacrifice their children to Molech in the Valley of Himmon don't you think that alone is evidence of adopting pagan beliefs?

Your previous comment, possibly deliberately, implied that the O.T. was filled with pagan practices and that virtually all Israel participated in these practices. You failed to note that in every instant where the COI disobeyed, God dealt with them quickly and severely, often with death.

[SIZE=-1]This is a fairly standard view that virtually all Bible theologians can attest to.[/size]

[size=+1]Gehenna - Eastons Bible Dictionary Online

This valley afterwards became the common receptacle for all the refuse of the city. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and all kinds of filth, were cast and consumed by fire kept always burning. It thus in process of time became the image of the place of everlasting destruction.[/SIZE]

More apparent dishonest quoting. You omitted the following sentences.

It thus in process of time became the image of the place of everlasting destruction. In this sense it is used by our Lord in Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5. In these passages, and also in James 3:6, the word is uniformly rendered "hell," the Revised Version placing "Gehenna" in the margin. (See HELL; HINNOM .)

[SIZE=+1]GEHENNA in the Bible Encyclopedia - ISBE (Bible History Online)

Gehenna is a transliteration from the Aramaic form of the Hebrew ge-hinnom, "valley of Hinnom." This latter form, however, is rare in the Old Testament, the prevailing name being "the valley of the son of Hinnom." Septuagint usually translates; where it transliterates the form is different from Gehenna and varies. In the New Testament the correct form is Gee'nna with the accent on the penult, not Ge'enna. There is no reason to assume that Hinnom is other than a plain patronymic, although it has been proposed to find in it the corruption of the name of an idol (EB, II, 2071). In the New Testament (King James Version margin) Gehenna occurs in Mt 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mk 9:43,15,47; Lk 12:5; Jas 3:6. In all of these it designates the place of eternal punishment of the wicked, generally in connection with the final judgment. It is associated with fire as the source of torment. Both body and soul are cast into it. This is not to be explained on the principle that the New Testament speaks metaphorically of the state after death in terms of the body; it presupposes the resurrection. In the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American) Gehenna is rendered by "hell" (see ESCHATOLOGY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT). That "the valley of Hinnom" became the technical designation for the place of final punishment was due to two causes. In the first place the valley had been the seat of the idolatrous worship of Molech, to whom children were immolated by fire (2 Ch 28:3; 33:6). Secondly, on account of these practices the place was defiled by King Josiah (2 Ki 23:10), and became in consequence associated in prophecy with the judgment to be visited upon the people (Jer 7:32). The fact, also, that the city's offal was collected there may have helped to render the name synonymous with extreme defilement. Topographically the identification of the valley of Hinnom is still uncertain. It has been in turn identified with the depression on the western and southern side of Jerusalem, with the middle valley, and with the valley to the E. Compare EB, II, 2071; DCG, I, 636; RE3, VI.
Geerhardus vos

Bibliography Information
Orr, James, M.A., D.D. General Editor. "Definition for 'GEHENNA'". "International Standard Bible Encyclopedia". bible-history.com - ISBE; 1915.[/SIZE]

See highlights which you seem to have ignored.

[SIZE=-1]Your protests frankly seem quite silly.

If your local newspaper reports on the facts of a case involving a serial killer is that to say that the serial killers beliefs were derived from the paper or possibly another source?[/SIZE]

Not interested in your futile attempts to legitimize your copy/paste of 2d-3d hand sources. The newspapers I read almost universally cite sources, e.g. "The spokesman for "X" said. . . " "A source who wished to remain anonymous said. . ." And they certainly do not make stuff up to fit their assumptions/presuppositions. Also they are talking about current events NOT something that happened more than 1600 years ago.

[SIZE=-1]
The Bible accurately reported that the COI got many of their beliefs from "pagan" sources.[/SIZE]

And there is NOT one single recorded instance of Israel adopting any pagan practice that God did not quickly and severely deal with. So what is your point?

I have no plan to address you post from any other angle than what I have taken.

I will take that as an admission that you cannot deal with anything I have posted and you choose to remain in whatever false teaching you have been been intensely indoctrinated with.[/SIZE]​

​

 

[RND]

And you keep repeating your mantra about the Talmud without addressing any of the scripture.

That's because my point was regarding the Talmud. Here's my point. Unless you are versed in the Talmud maybe it's best not to quote it.

Your previous comment, possibly deliberately, implied that the O.T. was filled with pagan practices and that virtually all Israel participated in these practices. You failed to note that in every instant where the COI disobeyed, God dealt with them quickly and severely, often with death.

Um, that's basically want the OT is about. And sometimes God didn't deal swiftyly with Israel. That doesn't change the fact that the COI adopted pagan practices. Do you deny that they did?

More apparent dishonest quoting. You omitted the following sentences.

It thus in process of time became the image of the place of everlasting destruction. In this sense it is used by our Lord in Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5. In these passages, and also in James 3:6, the word is uniformly rendered "hell," the Revised Version placing "Gehenna" in the margin. (See HELL; HINNOM .)​

An image.....

See highlights which you seem to have ignored.

I haven't ignored anything. I understand the difference between distruc"tion" and destruct"ing" and punish"ment" and punish"ing". You seem to have ignored the historcial fact as to how and why the Valley of Hinnom got the name "Gehenna."

Not interested in your futile attempts to legitimize your copy/paste of 2d-3d hand sources.

Does this mean you consider your "cut/paste" jobs from 2002 as being more "hstorically accurate" than the sources I used?

The newspapers I read almost universally cite sources, e.g. "The spokesman for "X" said. . . " "A source who wished to remain anonymous said. . ." And they certainly do not make stuff up to fit their assumptions/presuppositions. Also they are talking about current events NOT something that happened more than 1600 years ago.

Then it's settled your source from 2002 is no more accurate than the one's I used.

And there is NOT one single recorded instance of Israel adopting any pagan practice that God did not quickly and severely deal with. So what is your point?

God was actually extremely patient with Israel and Judah and the fact that these cultures accepted and adopted pagan practices.

I will take that as an admission that you cannot deal with anything I have posted and you choose to remain in whatever false teaching you have been been intensely indoctrinated with.

Sounds like sour grapes if you ask me. Or a kid that wants to take his ball and go home.​

 

[RND]

[SIZE=+1]

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau


Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
​

[/SIZE]

What makes this "cut/paste" job significant in any way? I mean it is from 2002 is it not? How can we consider this in any way historically factual or significant in any way? Where Kaufmann Kohler or Ludwig Blau even there? So how would they know? Frankly this "is not credible, verifiable, historical evidence. These are 20th century writings."

 

[Der Alte]

What makes this "cut/paste" job significant in any way? I mean it is from 2002 is it not? How can we consider this in any way historically factual or significant in any way? Where Kaufmann Kohler or Ludwig Blau even there? So how would they know? Frankly this "is not credible, verifiable, historical evidence. These are 20th century writings."

I suggest you try actually reading the article. You keep complaining about me quoting the Talmud. Where did you get that idea? Is it not true that the Talmud, i.e. a primary source was referenced several times in the article? And were you to actually read the article you would have seen several passages of scripture, I highlighted in blue, and other citations. And further if you had clicked on the link you would have seen that the article was much longer than what I quoted, and at the bottom was an extensive bibliography of works cited. An encyclopedia is a standard reference work, a random website with 2d-3d hand quotes without full bibliographic references is not.

 

[Der Alte]

That's because my point was regarding the Talmud. Here's my point. Unless you are versed in the Talmud maybe it's best not to quote it.

You keep accusing me of quoting the Talmud, a deliberate false accusation. I did NOT quote the Talmud! I quoted a standard reference work, the Jewish Encyclopedia which made some reference to the Talmud and other resources. If you cannot tell the difference perhaps you should excuse yourself from this discussion until you are able to recognize that very important distinction.

Um, that's basically want the OT is about. And sometimes God didn't deal swiftyly with Israel. That doesn't change the fact that the COI adopted pagan practices. Do you deny that they did?

Can you show me even one instance where Israel was involved in any pagan practice, where God did NOT deal with them quickly and severely?

An image.....

Meaningless quibble which ignores the meaning expressed by the full article.

I haven't ignored anything. I understand the difference between distruc"tion" and destruct"ing" and punish"ment" and punish"ing".

I'm sorry I do not require tutoring in English from heretical quibblings, which did NOT exist prior to the early 20th century. There is NO, ZERO, NONE evidence in scripture that any writer was making such a distinction. And of course the entire early church writings refute this heretical view. I wonder how the church got it wrong for 2000 years but EW and her cronies got it right in the 20th century?

You seem to have ignored the historcial fact as to how and why the Valley of Hinnom got the name "Gehenna."

A blatantly false accusation. I think I have included the origin in my posts at least 3-4 times. The etymology of the name is NOT relevant. See your own quotes from the ISBE and Easton's, above.

Does this mean you consider your "cut/paste" jobs from 2002 as being more "hstorically accurate" than the sources I used?

The JE was last copyrighted in 2002. But you failed to actually read the article, making meaningless, irrelevant objections. There were many historical citations included in the article and an extensive bibliography at the end of the complete article which you have not read.

Then it's settled your source from 2002 is no more accurate than the one's I used.

See above. I quoted a thoroughly documented standard reference work, you quoted a bunch of 2d-3d hand misquoted, misrepresented stuff from a random website.

God was actually extremely patient with Israel and Judah and the fact that these cultures accepted and adopted pagan practices.

Can you show even one pagan practice which Israel may have been involved in that God did NOT quickly and severely deal with? Since the answer is no, your argument means abso-diddly squat..

Sounds like sour grapes if you ask me. Or a kid that wants to take his ball and go home.

You quite evidently don't know the difference between a researched, peer reviewed standard reference work such as an encyclopedia and a buncha stuff misquoted, misrepresented, and even made up posted on some random website.

 

[RND]

I suggest you try actually reading the article.

I'm rejecting based on your standards for rejection. It was written in the 21st Century by people that "weren't there."

You keep complaining about me quoting the Talmud. Where did you get that idea?

Notice the numbers next to some of the quotes your source claimed? Those are references to the Talmud.

Is it not true that the Talmud, i.e. a primary source was referenced several times in the article?

Yes, that is true. That why I said what I said. It probably isn't the best source.

And were you to actually read the article you would have seen several passages of scripture, I highlighted in blue, and other citations. And further if you had clicked on the link you would have seen that the article was much longer than what I quoted, and at the bottom was an extensive bibliography of works cited. An encyclopedia is a standard reference work, a random website with 2d-3d hand quotes without full bibliographic references is not.

So? Using your criteria that means nothing really. Now you are in "qualifying" mode.

 

[JudaicChristian]

[SIZE=+1]I am not too interested in what you "think." I doubt you even know what the BDB or TWOT are. You have not produced any evidence of any kind to support your claim. Merely saying the equivalent of "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!," over and over and over does NOT make it true. And you have ignored my evidence from the JE showing that the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, believed in a place of eternal punishment.[/SIZE]

This is what the problem is: You have these books that tell you what the correct translation is, and yet you continue to use the unbiblical word in your argument. If the correct translation is grave, pit, or Gehenna, then why argue for the interpretation of hell. As a matter of history, Pagan and Gnostics have tried to control Judaism from day one.

 

[Der Alte]

This is what the problem is: You have these books that tell you what the correct translation is, and yet you continue to use the unbiblical word in your argument. If the correct translation is grave, pit, or Gehenna, then why argue for the interpretation of hell.

The problem is you are NOT even reading what I post, just posting endless, meaningless argumentation without addressing anything I said. I would be most appreciative if you could show me where I translated anything as "hell." You have NOT provided any language resource of any kind period, so your objection is meaningless.

G1067 &#947;&#949;&#769;&#949;&#957;&#957;&#945; geenna
Thayer Definition:
1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call “Gehenna” or “Gehenna of fire”. This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of Hebrew origin H1516 and H2011
Citing in TDNT: 1:657, 113

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament géenna Gehenna

1. géenna is the Greek form of the Hebrew name for the Wadi er-Rababi. This acquired a bad reputation because of the sacrifices offered to Moloch there (2 Kgs. 16:3). Judgment was pronounced on it (Jer. 7:32), and it thus came to be equated with the hell of the last judgment (Eth. En. 90:26). Later it was also used for the place where the wicked are punished in the intermediate state. The LXX, Philo, and Josephus do not have the term; Philo has tártaros instead.

2. The NT distinguishes between hád&#275;s and géenna: a. the former is temporary, the latter definitive (cf. Mark 9:43, 48); b. the former is for the soul alone, the latter for the reunited body and soul (Mark 9:43ff.; Matt. 10:28). géenna is preexistent (Matt. 25:41). It is manifested as a fiery abyss (Mark 9:43) after the general resurrection. Those who fall victim to divine judgment (Matt. 5:22; 23:33) will be destroyed there with eternal fire. The ungodly are sons of géenna (Matt. 23:15). They go to it with Satan and the demons (Matt. 25:41; cf. Rev. 19:20; 20:10-11). The threat of géenna in the NT is used to show the seriousness of sin and to awaken the conscience to fear of the divine anger (Matt. 10:28; 23:33). Even contemptuous words must be avoided (Matt. 5:22); no sacrifice is too costly in the war against sin (Mark 9:43ff.).
J. JEREMIAS, I, 657–58
&#8594; ai&#7763;nios, pýr​

As a matter of history, Pagan and Gnostics have tried to control Judaism from day one.

This may or may not be true, but it is totally irrelevant to anything.

 

[JudaicChristian]

The problem is you are NOT even reading what I post, just posting endless, meaningless argumentation without addressing anything I said. I would be most appreciative if you could show me where I translated anything as "hell."

As a matter of history, Pagan and Gnostics have tried to control Judaism from day one.
This may or may not be true, but it is totally irrelevant to anything.

Are you going to tell me that you have not heard of the Gnostic Gospels?