There is no hell.

[annrobert]

13Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency.

14For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
15If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children.
16When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
17Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
18Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.
19How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors. 20As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image


26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: 29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:


Daniel ch 12

Daniel 12


1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I can understand your confusion. I just blew your one out-of-context proof text out of the ball park.

That greek word used for "gehenna" is rather interesting.
One of the main differences between the greek word #1081 and #1067 is the use of the double vowel "e" in gehenna.

Matt 23:33 "Serpents! produce/gennh-mata <1081> of vipers! How ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>?

Luke 22:18 "For I am saying unto ye, that not no I may be drinking from the now, from the produce/gennh-matoV <1081> of the vine/ampelou <288> til of which the Kingdom of the God may be coming".

 

[SpiritDriven]

The Doctrine of Hell is a product of the Adversary....an Adversary created by God so that we can experience Evil.

That is why God shut Adam and Eve up in disobedience, so they would eat from the Tree, because only if they ate from the fruit of the tree, would they gain knowledge between good and evil.

Having that knowledge means we will all experience Good and Evil and know the difference....the choice was never ours...it was Gods way of ensuring that after we all have experienced evil...we will all go running to him when he becomes all in all.

That is how he becomes all in all, love reciprocated by every being he has ever created.....

Glory be to God !

 

[Thaeoles]

[SIZE=+1]I can understand your confusion. I just blew your one out-of-context proof text out of the ball park.[/SIZE]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I take that to mean you agree with Der Alter?

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=+1]There is more than one passage of scripture which mention some kind of conscious awareness after death. In these two passages God himself is speaking.

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.​

When the king of Babylon died there was a lot of moving, meeting, stirring, raising, and speaking in sheol, the place of the dead.

Eze 32:21-31
(21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
[ . . . ]
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and be comforted. over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

[/SIZE]

 

[Thaeoles]

I take that to mean you agree with Der Alter?

Pretty much all but the Talmud part. At least what I understood of it.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]The Doctrine of Hell is a product of the Adversary....an Adversary created by God so that we can experience Evil.

That is why God shut Adam and Eve up in disobedience, so they would eat from the Tree, because only if they ate from the fruit of the tree, would they gain knowledge between good and evil.

Having that knowledge means we will all experience Good and Evil and know the difference....the choice was never ours...it was Gods way of ensuring that after we all have experienced evil...we will all go running to him when he becomes all in all.

That is how he becomes all in all, love reciprocated by every being he has ever created.....

Glory be to God ![/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]You may notice that I quoted scripture. You OTOH have just posted assumption/presupposition.[/SIZE]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Pretty much all but the Talmud part. At least what I understood of it.

From what I have heard about it, it does not put a good "light" on Christian believers in Jesus.

I have never read it [or the Muslim's Koran, or the Catholic Catechism or the Book of Mormon], but I suppose if I was to debate the Jews on it, I would have to take the time to read it.

Talmud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Talmud (Hebrew: &#1514;&#1463;&#1468;&#1500;&#1456;&#1502;&#1493;&#1468;&#1491; talm&#363;d "instruction, learning", from a root lmd "teach, study") is a record of rabbinic discussions pertaining to Jewish law, ethics, customs, and history. It is a central text of mainstream Judaism.

The Talmud has two components: the Mishnah (c. 200 CE), the first written compendium of Judaism's Oral Law; and the Gemara (c. 500 CE), a discussion of the Mishnah and related Tannaitic writings that often ventures onto other subjects and expounds broadly on the Tanakh.

The terms Talmud and Gemara are often used interchangeably. The Gemara is the basis for all codes of rabbinic law and is much quoted in other rabbinic literature. The whole Talmud is also traditionally referred to as Shas (&#1513;"&#1505, a Hebrew abbreviation of shisha sedarim, the "six orders" of the Mishnah.

 

[SpiritDriven]

[SIZE=+1]You may notice that I quoted scripture. You OTOH have just posted assumption/presupposition.[/SIZE]

You have posted Scripture....yet have no wisdom of it....

Do you even recognise the Sovereign Power and Will of God ? in regards too all matters and all beings?

Read 1 Timothy 4 verses 9 10 and 11 for insight into the Sovereign Power and Will of God....

Ecc 9.5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]You have posted Scripture....yet have no wisdom of it....

Do you even recognise the Sovereign Power and Will of God ? in regards too all matters and all beings?

Read 1 Timothy 4 verses 9 10 and 11 for insight into the Sovereign Power and Will of God[/SIZE]....

Ecc 9.5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten

[SIZE=+1]Meaningless, empty assertion, about one step below, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!"[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Please note that those who claim there is no place of eternal punishment always quote this passage out-of-context.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.​

This passage is not speaking of the eternal condition of the dead, but death as it appears to mortal man. Note it refers to things done "under the sun." If it means the eternal condition of the dead then even the righteous do not receive any more reward, after death, vs. 5. Even the ancient Jews before and during the time of Jesus knew there was a place of eternal punishment for the unrepentant.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, &#913;&#955;&#951;&#952;&#949;&#953;&#962; &#921;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#961;&#953;&#945;&#953;, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
​

[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]There is more than one passage of scripture which mention some kind of conscious awareness after death. In these two passages God himself is speaking.

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.​

When the king of Babylon died there was a lot of moving, meeting, stirring, raising, and speaking in sheol, the place of the dead.

Eze 32:21-31
(21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
[ . . . ]
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and be comforted. over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

[/SIZE]

 

[JudaicChristian]

[SIZE=+1]There is more than one passage of scripture which mention some kind of conscious awareness after death. In these two passages God himself is speaking.

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.​

When the king of Babylon died there was a lot of moving, meeting, stirring, raising, and speaking in sheol, the place of the dead.

Eze 32:21-31
(21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
[ . . . ]
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and be comforted. over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

[/SIZE]

Dear Der Alter, please do all of us a favor and get yourself an Exhaustive Concordance.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Daniel ch 12

Daniel 12


1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Do you see the word "prince" maked in red? That is a interpretation for the word "leader."
Do you see the words "everlasting contempt?" The contempt is from those who have life immortal. After God takes their life from them in the final judgement, how will there be any life in hell?

 

[annrobert]

There is more than one passage of scripture which mention some kind of conscious awareness after death. In these two passages God himself is speaking.

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
​

I agree with that.This verse seems to agree as well.
Daniel 12
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[JudaicChristian]

I agree with that.This verse seems to agree as well.
Daniel 12
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Isa 14:9 Hell (grave) from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
If you will recall, God brings everyone back to life in the final judgement, and the word hell is a interpretation for the word grave.

 

[annrobert]

I agree they awake, however some awake to everlasting contempt.

 

[JudaicChristian]

I agree they awake, however some awake to everlasting contempt.

When God takes their life from them how will they know anything?

Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

 

[annrobert]

When God takes their life from them how will they know anything?

They will be awakened.
Daniel 12
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[annrobert]

The wicked will not be remembered so how can the righteous have contempt for people they do not remember.Also if they are not conscious how can they awaken to feel shame.I really really do not want to believe in everlasting punishment.I really wish no one suffered forever.However even about Judas it says it would have been better if he had never been born.I hate the idea of anyone being tormented day and night in the Presense of the Lamb forever.If I could be convinced I was wrong I would be so happy.Yet Jesus says he that believeth not is condemned already.

Do you see the words "everlasting contempt?" The contempt is from those who have life immortal. After God takes their life from them in the final judgement, how will there be any life in hell?

 

[JudaicChristian]

The wicked will not be remembered so how can the righteous have contempt for people they do not remember.Also if they are not conscious how can they awaken to feel shame.I really really do not want to believe in everlasting punishment.I really wish no one suffered forever.However even about Judas it says it would have been better if he had never been born.I hate the idea of anyone being tormented day and night in the Presense of the Lamb forever.If I could be convinced I was wrong I would be so happy.Yet Jesus says he that believeth not is condemned already.

Are you trying to be cleaver or what? The wicked will not be remembered personally, and yet there will be contempt.

Revelation 20: They will be tormented (or punished) day and night for ever and ever. This only means that their judgement is final
The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The word "fire" is parabolic for "judgement." Death and Hades (the grave) are done away with. We do not worship a God who is without mercy and torments beings for all eternity. You need to understand that there is a difference between literal and symbolic.