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There is no hell.

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Mikecpking

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We have no reason to believe otherwise. The bodies wait in the tomb for the final judgment, yes, but there's nothing that states our souls aren't in their intended place. But this thread is about the existence of hell, not where our souls go when we die, at least not in the context of whether they go directly to heaven/hell or not.

As you already know, "nephesh" does not exist outside a body so the notion of a disembodied soul going somewhere after death does not fit in to Scripture. You have all the theology given to you.
And it still doesn't answer the question posed of where do people who don't believe in hell believe that unbelievers go when they die the spiritual death. Apparently if they don't go to hell (or whatever word you wish to use for it) they must go somewhere or they just go *poof*.

Everyone goes to 'Sheol' when they die and bercome 'rephaim' where in death, they don't cease to exist, but in death, they are the weakest form of life. Then on the last day, everyone is resurrected (Daniel 12:2, John 6:54, 1 cor 15.) Simple, isn't it? :)
 
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Mikecpking

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Enoch 1 is quoted in the new testament and 2 esdras totally aligns with scripture as I've already said(I've been aligning similarities between these books and elements of the canon in other threads)

these books were used as scripture

even the epistle from clement(which is considered inspired by catholics) to the corinthians makes mention of Enoch and his spirit being translated which is a term directly from Enoch 1

you have no evidence of these books being of pagan origin(because they aren't)

Enoch 1 was also found at Qumran(the dead sea scrolls)...this scripture is the oldest that is known to exist at this time and there were 25 copies of Enoch amongst the scrolls

Maybe so, but many of the texts were deemed not to have been inspired by the word of God and therefore did not make the canon. They also contradict scripture like the notion of preexistant souls which definately has pagan origins.
 
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GuardianShua

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You know, in some places you're correct, in others horribly wrong. It is true that the English word 'hell' is often used to describe Sheol/Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus, and it's also true that the Roman Church introduced a flawed perception of the afterlife, and Protestants continue along the same line of error. But instead of searching for the truth, you try to invent your own, and come up with an equally flawed result.

Also, you obviously have no idea what Pagan religions actually thought about the afterlife, since most (all?) never had any concept similar to what Western Christianity thinks of as 'Hell'.
The Hebrew word "Sheol" translated into English is "Grave." You must not have studied the first page.
 
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Mikecpking

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We have no reason to believe otherwise. The bodies wait in the tomb for the final judgment, yes, but there's nothing that states our souls aren't in their intended place. But this thread is about the existence of hell, not where our souls go when we die, at least not in the context of whether they go directly to heaven/hell or not.

And it still doesn't answer the question posed of where do people who don't believe in hell believe that unbelievers go when they die the spiritual death. Apparently if they don't go to hell (or whatever word you wish to use for it) they must go somewhere or they just go *poof*.

Hi,
Sorry, I thought you were '&Abel' when replying.

To answer more fully, the Hebrews had no notion of souls seperate from the body or souls going someplace else or anything like that. The word 'soul' we see in the bible is from the Hebrew word 'Nephesh' and 'psuche' (Greek) in the NT. Essentially, the word can be used for 'life' as defined in DT 12:23 which literally means the 'Nephesh' is life (IE soul=life as in physical life.) Also literally means the 'blood is the 'soul' and therefore, nephesh is locked into a physical living body. Nowhere in scripture does the word 'soul' means 'the 'you' inside a body that survives death. Please have a look at the thread I posted to &Abel.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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At any rate, Matthew 25:46 really explains it quite well. "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


I'm reminded of a really bad "joke"....

LIBERAL: "There ain't no hell!"
CONSERVATIVE: "The hell there ain't!"






.
 
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Zoness

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For what reason do you wish to believe Yahwah is a merciless God, who will torcher living being for all eternity?
Since scriptures state that there is DEATH of the spirit in the final judgment, then it is reasonable to conclude that Yahwah takes their life from them.

I was never able to reconcile the concept of the all-loving God with unbelievers' eternal torture. So would "death of the spirit" refer to some form Annihilationalism?
 
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PreachersWife2004

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I was never able to reconcile the concept of the all-loving God with unbelievers' eternal torture. So would "death of the spirit" refer to some form Annihilationalism?

That's because it's the actions of the person that put them there, not God.

It's like the court system. Do you blame the judges who put criminals away or do you blame the criminals? It's the judges that ultimately hand down the sentence, but the criminals had to do something to be placed in the judgment seat.
 
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GuardianShua

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I was never able to reconcile the concept of the all-loving God with unbelievers' eternal torture. So would "death of the spirit" refer to some form Annihilationalism?
Numbers 16:22.
But Moses and Aaron fell face down and cried out, "O God, God of the spirits of all mankind, will you be angry with the entire assembly when only one man sins?"
Numbers 27:16.
"May the LORD, the God of the spirits of all mankind, appoint a man over this community
Isaiah 26:14.
They are now dead, they live no more; those departed spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.
Matthew 10:28.
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. (spirit) Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell(body and spirit in the grave.)

Matthew 26:38.
Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me." 39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." 40Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
Luke 26:46.
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
1 Thessalonians 5:23.
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body(whole soul, body and spirit be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 4:12.
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit(body and spirit), joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
1 Corinthians 7:34.
and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband.

2 Corinthians 7:1.
Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of…

1 John 4.
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Hebrews 1:14.
Are not all angels(messengers) ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
(Not all messengers are sent)
 
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GuardianShua

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That's because it's the actions of the person that put them there, not God.

It's like the court system. Do you blame the judges who put criminals away or do you blame the criminals? It's the judges that ultimately hand down the sentence, but the criminals had to do something to be placed in the judgment seat.
For what reason do you wish to believe Yahwah is a merciless God, who will torture living beings for all eternity?
Since scriptures state that there is DEATH of the spirit in the final judgment, then it is reasonable to conclude that Yahwah takes their life from them.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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For what reason do you wish to believe Yahwah is a merciless God, who will torture living beings for all eternity?
Since scriptures state that there is DEATH of the spirit in the final judgment, then it is reasonable to conclude that Yahwah takes their life from them.

Do you think the judges are merciless when they had down their sentences?
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]For what reason do you wish to believe Yahwah is a merciless God, who will torture living beings for all eternity?
Since scriptures state that there is DEATH of the spirit in the final judgment, then it is reasonable to conclude that Yahwah takes their life from them.[/SIZE]

The views you express did NOT exist until the late 19th century or later. From the time that Moses delivered the law, the Jews understood that there was a place of eternal punishment for those who reject God. Please note the scriptures highlighted in blue.
Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G
 
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&Abel

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actually "the book of jubilees" was found amongst the dead sea scrolls as well and according to jubilees Enoch was the first man with the ability to prophesy and write words

so not only is 1 Enoch scripture its the probably the first piece of scripture that ever existed
 
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GuardianShua

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The views you express did NOT exist until the late 19th century or later. From the time that Moses delivered the law, the Jews understood that there was a place of eternal punishment for those who reject God. Please note the scriptures highlighted in blue.
Some of your quotes are Gnostic scripture. Hell was introduced to the Jews. It was not a teaching of Judaism originally.
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]Some of your quotes are Gnostic scripture. Hell was introduced to the Jews. It was not a teaching of Judaism originally.[/SIZE]

We only have your unsupported opinion for three separate assertions. One, there are NO, NONE, ZERO "gnostic" anything in my post. Good luck on finding any credible, verifiable evidence that anything was "introduced" to the Jews and was written in scripture. Same for your assertion that hell was not a teaching of Judaism originally. I notice that you have not addressed any of the scripture.

As I said, from the time that Moses delivered the law, Judaism understood that God had prepared a place of eternal punishment for those who reject him. My evidence is posted above. I will be waiting for any evidence from you.
 
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Zoness

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That's because it's the actions of the person that put them there, not God.

It's like the court system. Do you blame the judges who put criminals away or do you blame the criminals? It's the judges that ultimately hand down the sentence, but the criminals had to do something to be placed in the judgment seat.

Not that I say sinners should do whatever they want but think about it. Either we were given free will and we were punished for making the wrong decision or it was predestined that the majority of creation was going to be punished/annihilated/damned. If you ask me, that means God is probably not all-loving....sounds very Calvinist of me hmmm I need to research this.

Michael has some interesting points...I doubt you can find a church that supports this sort of view though.
 
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