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There is no hell.

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GuardianShua

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Heaven and hell were both quite unfamiliar to the Jews prior to the Exile. Subsequent to same, Hellenism influenced the thinking of Rabbis and scribes.

Interestingly enough, Jesus seems to have taught things more familiar to salvation and eschatological cults than to the unHellenized Jew. Do you propose He was misinformed?;)
Here is what you do not know. Before Babylon The Jews taught Heaven, (sheol for grave,) and Gehenna. But not Hell, Hades, or Tartaroo.
 
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GuardianShua

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Rdr Iakovos

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Taking leave of logical fallacies, let u return to the OP:
Is there in fact no "hell?"

If one means "does the Dante Allegheri version of hell bear any resemblance to the bible version," I might be inclined to say "not so much."

But that does not mean that there is no "hell." In point of fact, scriptures already referenced indicate the following:
1. There is indeed an eternal punishment (Matt 25) for those who reject the Ways of the Lord, especially and specifically those ho violate the Second Great Commandment.
2. There is an eternal separation from God for those who "do not know" Him.
3. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is an unpardonable offense.
4. Just exactly what points 2 and 3 mean is not entirely clear, except there is a sure consequence for those who violate their mandates. That consequence is eternal.
5. The "outer darkness," in which there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth," is not populated by spirits that have been destroyed.

His judgements are just, and His Ways inscrutable. Is it possible that He may even save all, somewhere in the vast expance of time? An argument can be made, one that is sentimentally pleasing to those who care enough about their fellow man to not wish to see any suffer- include me among that number. But He is the Judge, and He will do as He does.

I suspect that those who hate Him in this life will continue to do the same in the next. To quote Metallica, "sad but true."
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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What I found interesting was that Luke is the only Gospel writer to mention LAKE, and coincidentally, if you look at the word used in Luke 5 for "gennsaret" it is eerily similar to that greek word "gehenna". How come John or Paul never mentioned this word?

Luke 5:1 It became yet, in the of the throng to be nearing to Him to be hearing the word of the God, and He was standing beside the Lake/limnhn <3041> Gennesaret/gennh-saret <1082>, [Matt 14:34, Mark 6:53]

Matt 23:33 `Serpents! generation/gennh-mata <1081> of vipers! how ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV?

1067. geena gheh'-en-nah of Hebrew origin (1516 and 2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell

Mentioned 12 times in the NT. 7 times in Matthew, 3 times in Luke, 1 time in Epistles.
 
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Rdr Iakovos

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Here is what you do not know. Before Babylon The Jews taught Heaven, (sheol for grave,) and Gehenna. But not Hell, Hades, or Tartaroo.
I do not know that because it is a fallacy.

In point of fact, the ancient Jews saw no distinction between the physical and the spiritual. Spirit as breath, end of story (See Ecclesiasticus 9 for example "the dead know nothing").

Only God was in the heaven, beyond the covering. The angels (stars) were in the 'heavens.'

Later, Jewish thinking incorporated sheol, a place where both the righteous and unrighteous dwelt, with 'chasm' placed between the two.
 
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Rdr Iakovos

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Although the word virgin is not scriptural,

Nonsense- the word parthenou means virgin. So does almah, taken in context.
I do believe that she was a virgin. I object to any and all corruptions.
Bully for you. Corruptions according to whom? And from what standard?
 
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GuardianShua

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I do not know that because it is a fallacy.

In point of fact, the ancient Jews saw no distinction between the physical and the spiritual. Spirit as breath, end of story (See Ecclesiasticus 9 for example "the dead know nothing").

Only God was in the heaven, beyond the covering. The angels (stars) were in the 'heavens.'

Later, Jewish thinking incorporated sheol, a place where both the righteous and unrighteous dwelt, with 'chasm' placed between the two.

The chasm is that the dead can not come back to life to join the living after God kills them.
Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
The word sheol literally means grave. You need to study the difference between translation and interpretation, and parable not literal. Good luck.
 
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Gary51

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Your "god" is made up.
No He's not.

Matthew 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" KJB


“Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels…And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

Do these verses prove that there is an ever-burning hell?
They do not! The Greek word, aionios, translated “everlasting,” means “agelasting.” The event referred to is the 1,000-year Millennium, when Satan and his demons will have been thrown into the bottomless pit and bound (Rev. 20:2-3). There are three separate phases of Satan’s “hell”:
(1) II Peter 2:4 (latter part): The 6,000 years that he has been cast down to earth, as explained by the Greek word tartaroo, which means prison, incarcerate or place of restraint. II Peter incorrectly translates tartaroo as “hell.”
(2) Revelation 20:1-3: 1,000 years in the bottomless pit.
(3) Jude 13 (latter part): Contains a reference to Satan being cast into “outer darkness” after the Millennium.
Matthew 25:46 also refers to an everlasting “punishment,” not “punishing.” Whenever death occurs, it is certainly an everlasting event—as far as the person is concerned. This helps to explain verse 41. Verses 41 and 46 must be understood together.

Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, not us, but if we deny Christ that is where we're going because God cannot let sin into Heaven.
You need to understand what happens to those that go there.
 
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Gary51

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So what was the point of Jesus telling the story about Lazarus and the rich man?
The Meaning of Lazarus and the Rich Man

Surely some will ask, &#8220;What about Lazarus and the rich man? Didn&#8217;t they both die and go to heaven and hell, respectively? Isn&#8217;t this the lesson of the story?&#8221; Much of this booklet, to this point, has indirectly addressed the most common questions arising from this story.

Sadly, the account of Lazarus and the rich man is almost universally misunderstood. Nearly everyone asserts that it is not a parable but rather a literal representation of the afterlife. This statement cannot withstand the scrutiny of facts. All one must do is start with the assumption that it is literal and then attempt to explain the elements in it as though they can only be taken literally. The difficulty in doing this will be made clear by this exercise.

For those who remain unconvinced that it is a parable, turn to Mark 4:33-34. These two verses describe the pattern Christ always used to teach His disciples: &#8220;And with many such parables spoke He the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spoke He not unto them: and when they were alone, He expounded all things to His disciples.&#8221; Christ continually used parables to teach. In Mark 4, prior to these verses, He had just spoken three parables. The New Testament contains dozens of others. A parable is a story designed to illustrate a point. Apparently, in one way or another, Christ always used parables, for &#8220;without a parable spake He not unto them.&#8221; Remember&#8212;accept the Bible at face value. The story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable and must be accepted as such.

The account of this parable is found in Luke 16:19-31. Take the time to read it&#8212;and get a complete picture of this story in your mind. Does it really say that when people die, they immediately go to either heaven or hell? We will see that it says no such thing!
We have only briefly touched on the subject of Christians (the meek) &#8220;inheriting the earth&#8221; as being the truth of the reward of the saved and how it supplants the common belief that heaven is their reward. This included a short examination of those who will awaken to immortality with God&#8217;s likeness at the time of the resurrection. Of course, we much more thoroughly discussed the subject of hell. Therefore, it will be considerably easier to clarify&#8212;to harmonize&#8212;the real fate of the rich man than that of Lazarus. The rich man suffered hell fire and Lazarus was saved. While this much is plain, what does it mean?

The account is best studied verse by verse with an open Bible. The explanation may periodically reference verses out of order so that we may sometimes examine a verse, phrase by phrase. Be prepared to take careful note of what the account does not say as well as what it does say. Also, look up each verse referenced (but not quoted) in the explanation.

Verses 19-21: These verses set the stage. They describe the parable&#8217;s two principal characters. Obviously, one is very wealthy and the other pitifully poor and miserable. One of the purposes of the parable is to demonstrate that Lazarus is a type of all Gentile Christians, who become Abraham&#8217;s children upon conversion. Read Galatians 3:7, 29.
Verse 22: Both men die. From this point forward, most people reading the account jump the track by making false assumptions. Most conclude that Lazarus is pictured as immediately arriving in heaven and the rich man as immediately arriving in an ever-burning hell. The account says neither of these things!

Notice! The verse says nothing whatsoever about either heaven or an ever-burning hell&#8212;period! Try to find these terms. They are not there. This verse states that Lazarus arrives at &#8220;Abraham&#8217;s bosom&#8221;&#8212;with no mention of when this occurs. The rich man is &#8220;buried!&#8221; That is all it says. Remember the rule: Take the verse for what it says&#8212;without adding to it or subtracting from it.
Lazarus&#8217; presence at Abraham&#8217;s bosom depicts a very close, loving relationship. The apostle John is recorded as having reclined on Christ&#8217;s bosom as &#8220;the disciple whom Christ loved&#8221; (John 13:23). (Though John does not identify himself, probably because of modesty, it is clear whom the verse refers to.) So a special relationship is shown between Abraham and Lazarus, with no reference to either time or place. Describing a conversation during the time of Christ&#8217;s ministry, John 8:52-53 states (twice), &#8220;Abraham is dead.&#8221; At that point, Abraham had been dead for nearly 2,000 years. He is still dead! He is not waiting in heaven for people to come, immediately after death, and recline on his bosom. The meek inherit the earth when Christ returns to establish His kingdom! Abraham and Lazarus will be resurrected into the kingdom of God at Christ&#8217;s Second Coming. This is the meaning of the phrase.

Another rule of Bible study is found in II Peter 1:20. It cautions that &#8220;no&#8230;scripture is of any private interpretation.&#8221; Reviewing other essential scriptures makes this clear. Compare Daniel 7:18, 22, 27; Jude 14-15; and Revelation 5:10 with many other verses and it is obvious that the saints reign on the earth with Christ. Then notice that Matthew 25:31 shows that Christ returns with &#8220;the holy angels.&#8221; Recall that Lazarus was &#8220;carried by the angels&#8221; to Abraham&#8217;s bosom. Finally, compare this with Matthew 24:31 for further proof of the angels&#8217; role in this way. (Read our free booklets Do the Saved Go to Heaven? and Just What Is Salvation?)
Verse 23: The rich man is obviously in hell. However, the word translated &#8220;hell&#8221; here is hades. This makes sense because hades is the grave and we read that the rich man had been &#8220;buried.&#8221; This means that he was put into a grave. There is no mystery about what happened to him. Therefore, the phrase &#8220;he lift up his eyes&#8221; also makes sense as no more than a reference to the resurrection described in John 5:29. We have previously examined this verse. This phrase is consistent with a resurrection, when people awaken&#8212;or &#8220;lift up their eyes.&#8221;

The rich man was also in &#8220;torments.&#8221; What does this mean? The Greek word translated &#8220;torments&#8221; is basanos. It is found in only one other place in the Bible. Its meaning is fascinating. It means &#8220;a touchstone, having to do with touching pure gold, against the particular stone, to test its purity and validity&#8230;to be under a severe trial, torture.&#8221; We will see that the rich man was, in fact, mentally tortured and in a severe trial. He was facing the lake of fire! Try to imagine a more serious trial than this. He had missed out on salvation and could clearly see Abraham and Lazarus in the kingdom of God.

Verse 24: This verse is usually cited to justify the classic version of hell where people burn but never completely burn up. Read it carefully. The rich man requests that Lazarus &#8220;cool his tongue&#8221; with a tiny amount of water&#8212;no more than a few drops on the tip of a finger. If you were roasting in a condition involving walls of fire all around you, would you merely ask for a few drops of water&#8212;and only for the purpose of cooling your tongue? Would you not rather ask for a whole pool of water to be dumped on you? I would! The rich man is again described as &#8220;tormented.&#8221; Understanding this word (&#8220;tormented&#8221;) is the key to explaining the rich man&#8217;s condition. It is not basanos.

The word translated &#8220;tormented&#8221; is odunao. It means, &#8220;to grieve, sorrow, torment, duress, distress, strain.&#8221; No reference to roasting or burning is included in its definition. The rich man is described as being in mental torment because he is facing the lake of fire. Fear has seized him and given him the condition commonly referred to as &#8220;cotton mouth.&#8221; Great fear and distress often dry up the mouth. The rich man was hoping for Lazarus to moisten his tongue. We might also ask the following question of all those who believe in the immortality of the soul and who wish to take this parable literally. Do immortal souls have tongues? The reader may ponder this.

The phrase &#8220;in this flame&#8221; is mistranslated. The actual meaning in the Greek is &#8220;by reason of this flame.&#8221; This critical mistranslation entirely changes the scenario. The rich man was not yet &#8220;in the flame&#8221; but was tormented by fear because he saw it coming. He had good &#8220;reason&#8221; to be in mental anguish and torment.
Verse 25: This verse reinforces the element of the passing of time to properly understand the parable. Abraham answers the rich man by saying, &#8220;Son, remember that in your lifetime&#8230;&#8221; What would be the point of using the word &#8220;remember&#8221; if the rich man&#8217;s lifetime had ended just a few seconds prior to this conversation? Typically, people use the word remember when they are speaking of events that happened long ago! The passing of much time, since the rich man&#8217;s death, is confirmed at the end of the verse, when Abraham says, &#8220;but now he [Lazarus] is comforted.&#8221; It is apparent that the two words remember and now are contrasted to one another because significant time has passed. Both men had lain in the grave for a great while, until the time of their respective resurrections from the dead.

Verse 26: This verse describes what is called &#8220;a great gulf fixed&#8221; between where Abraham and Lazarus were and where the rich man was. Some believe this is a picture of a great physical distance between the locations of heaven and hell. It certainly does not say that. What exactly is this &#8220;great gulf fixed?&#8221;
Notice: &#8220;Behold, the Lord&#8217;s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither His ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities [lawlessness] have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear&#8221; (Isa. 59:1-2). Also Jeremiah 5:25: &#8220;Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withheld good things from you.&#8221; Now read Hebrews 10:26: &#8220;For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins.&#8221;

These verses show that sin, in all of its forms, cuts people off from God! God cannot bless, protect, heal, guide or save people who do not repent of and forsake sin. God is holy&#8212;He does not have contact with sin. Because of His perfect righteousness, He cannot! The rich man&#8217;s sins had cut him off from God. This is why Abraham said that no one on either side of this &#8220;gulf&#8221; was able to cross to the other side. It was impossible, literally!
Verses 27-28: These two verses can be taken together because they both describe the rich man&#8217;s request to send Lazarus to warn his brothers. This would be a natural request for any man concerned about his family. The rich man would have been unaware of how much time had passed since his death. He would have had no way of knowing unless he asked&#8212;and the account does not record that he did.

Verse 29: Abraham&#8217;s answer to this question is extremely important because it says what everyone alive today should do in their own lives. He warns that the five brothers (and, by inclusion, everyone else who has ever lived) should listen to &#8220;Moses and the prophets.&#8221; Abraham is emphatic&#8212;&#8220;let them hear them.&#8221; This is Christ&#8217;s instruction to an entire world that ignores the Bible, in general, and the words of Moses and the Old Testament prophets, in particular! This warning is here for you, the reader, to consider!

Verses 30-31: These two verses are also tremendously instructive, but in a slightly different way. They represent an amazing insight into the careless neglect and general disregard of God&#8217;s word that is so typical of human nature. When taken together, these verses demonstrate that people who are determined not to obey God&#8212;who are determined not to heed Moses and the prophets&#8212;won&#8217;t even be moved to action by a well-known person resurrected &#8220;from the dead&#8221;! What a stunning indictment of human stubbornness in the face of the plain truths of God. These verses contain a warning. Will you hear them?
The rich man had been given his opportunity in his lifetime. He realized that he had missed out on salvation. He also recognized that Lazarus had been resurrected &#8220;from the dead.&#8221; The scripture does not say that he was resurrected &#8220;from life&#8221;&#8212;it says that he had been resurrected &#8220;from the dead.&#8221; The entire account of this parable was used by Christ to teach the resurrection of the dead! This account was never intended to teach the idea of immediately going to heaven or hell upon death.
Many Bible scholars have long understood that this parable was never intended to address the state of the dead. The New Bible Dictionary states, &#8220;Probably the story of Dives and Lazarus (Lk. xvi), like the story of the unjust steward (Lk. xvi.1-9), is a parable which made use of certain Jewish thinking and is not intended to teach anything about the state of the dead&#8221;
 
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Gary51

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If he did tell a story like that, then some one altered the words because they do not agree with scripture. Personally I do not think Jesus spoke those words. I think some Gnostic was distorting scripture.
If you think Jesus did not speak those words then you have one BIG problem....

You need to go away and do some study on the parable.... You have a good grounding on scripture.... But, if you persist with this position you will dig yourself a big hole.
 
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Gary51

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I understand the scriptures, but anyway lets let this one go bye bye. OK
You yourself have stated that if one finds a supposed contradiction it need to be investigated.... Now you're saying bye bye... Do you see your Big problem?
 
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Gary51

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Although the word virgin is not scriptural, I do believe that she was a virgin. I object to any and all corruptions.
Now you are cherry picking.....

You sig states what you don't believe because certain words are not scriptural, but you don't mind accepting certain words that you claim are not scriptural, like virgin.
 
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GuardianShua

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Now you are cherry picking.....

You sig states what you don't believe because certain words are not scriptural but you don't mind accepting certain words like virgin.
I see that you like to distort what a person says to discredit them. The word virgin is an interpretation for maiden. The word virgin does not appear in the original text. Never the less I still believe she was a virgin.
 
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Gary51

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Gary51

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I see that you like to distort what a person says to discredit them. The word virgin is an interpretation for maiden. The word virgin does not appear in the original text. Never the less I still believe she was a virgin.
I think you are missing the point.... You accept maiden as meaning virgin... but reject other words and meanings.... Cherry picking.

You discredit yourself!
 
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squint

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#1. The word Satan is scriptural and the word Devil is not, accept in maybe one place. The word Satan means accussor.

And your point is what? That anyone can open an online concordance and see multiple potential meanings for words used in the Bible?

#2. The word angel is not scriptural. The word messenger is scriptural.

Angel = Messenger. Agreed.
The word angel is messenger, so what?

What you may mean to say is that everyone 'automatically' thinks Angel means GOOD when that is surely NOT the case or that the term Angel 'automatically' means a Holy Angel from God when that term is employed for Holy Angels, Evil Angels or MEN Angels.

#3. Words like ocean, sea, lake, river, stream, and waters are sometimes used in a parable to mean a body of proples.

Again agreed except that I think you mean peoples not proples?

#4. Words like fire, burn-ed-ing, flame, coal, lightning and sulfer are sometimes used to mean judgment.

Again agreed. And SOMETIMES that 'judgment' is unto GOOD ENDS for those coming under such measures and far from 'torture' i.e. Isaiah and the burning coal to his lips or Jesus statement that judgment is meant for men that ALL would honor the Son.

#5. Words like Hell, Hades and Tartaroo are not scriptural. The words sheol, grave, and Gehenna are scriptural.

They are certainly 'interchangeable' terms, and if understood this way, no harm no foul.

You still didn't address the fact that the Word does teach that there are EVIL angels (who were in fact NEVER holy) who WILL be set aside in the Lake of Fire...

and

These EVIL angels were clearly shown by Jesus to be WITH or UPON the bodies and minds of MANKIND.

enjoy!

squint
 
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GuardianShua

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And your point is what? That anyone can open an online concordance and see multiple potential meanings for words used in the Bible?



Angel = Messenger. Agreed.
The word angel is messenger, so what?

What you may mean to say is that everyone 'automatically' thinks Angel means GOOD when that is surely NOT the case or that the term Angel 'automatically' means a Holy Angel from God when that term is employed for Holy Angels, Evil Angels or MEN Angels.



Again agreed except that I think you mean peoples not proples?



Again agreed. And SOMETIMES that 'judgment' is unto GOOD ENDS for those coming under such measures and far from 'torture' i.e. Isaiah and the burning coal to his lips or Jesus statement that judgment is meant for men that ALL would honor the Son.



They are certainly 'interchangeable' terms, and if understood this way, no harm no foul.

You still didn't address the fact that the Word does teach that there are EVIL angels (who were in fact NEVER holy) who WILL be set aside in the Lake of Fire...

and

These EVIL angels were clearly shown by Jesus to be WITH or UPON the bodies and minds of MANKIND.

enjoy!

squint

Take a close look. Compare it to your own.

Jude

1. Jude, a servant of Yahshua the Messiah, and brother of James, and to them that are sanctified by Yahwah the Father, also called and saved by Yahshua the Messiah.
2. May mercy, peace, and devotion, be multiplied to you.
3. Loved, I was eager to write to you about the salvation we share, it was necessary for me to write to you, and encourage you to earnestly contend for the faith that was given to the saints.
4. Because you are unaware that certain men have sneaked in, who are of a ancient order to their condemnation, these ungodly men turn the grace of our God into immorality, and deny that the only God is Yahwah, or that our lord Yahshua is the Messiah.
5. I will remind you although you once knew this, how Yahwah, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that did not believe.
6. Those messengers did not keep their first estate, and they were removed from their place, and He has reserved for them everlasting chains of darkness for that great day of judgment.

7. Just like Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in the same manner, they gave themselves over to fornication, and strange flesh.
8. And they will suffer the vengeance of eternal fire, as a set example; As also along with these filthy dreamers who also defile their flesh.
9. They say evil things about dignitaries and despise their dominion, they say evil things about what they know nothing about.
10. But what they do know naturally like brute beasts; In those things they have corrupted themselves.
11. Woe to them! they have gone the ways of Cain, and have ran greedily after the errors of Balaam for a reward, and perish like in the rebellion of Korah.
12. They are blemishes at your devotions, without fear they eat with you, only to feed themselves; They are clouds without rain, carried about by winds; pulled up by the roots they are trees whose fruit has withered before harvest, twice dead;
13. Like raging waves of the sea, whose foam is to their own shame; They are wandering stars, for whom is reserved the blackest of darkness for ever.
14. And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied about them, saying, look, the Lord is coming with tens of thousands of his saints,
15. To execute judgment upon them, and to convince all of the ungodly among them of their ungodly deeds, which they have committed, and all of their hard words spoken by the ungodly sinners who have spoken against Him.
16. These complainers are grumblers walking after their own lusts; and their mouths speak with great words of pride, having the admiration of men because of some personal advantage.
17. Loved, do you remember the words which were spoken of before; by the disciples of our lord Yahshua the Messiah;
18. How they told you there would come mockers in the last days, and how they would walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19. Not having the Spirit; these are the people who divide you by their lust.
20. But your love builds you up in your most holy faith, praying to the Holy Spirit,
21. Keep yourselves as Yahwah's devoted, looking for mercy from our lord Yahshua the Messiah for eternal life.
22. Make a difference and have compassion.
23. Save others without fear, by pulling them from the fire; hate even the cloths stained by the flesh.
24. He is able to keep you from falling, and present you faultless before his present glory with great joy,
25. And to the only wise God and Saviour, be glory,majesty, dominion and power; To both now, and forever. Truly. [/SIZE]
 
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Gary51

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Obviously Gary, I believe that truth is narrowly defined, were as you do not.
That could be part of your problem. Thinking that truth is narrowly defined is not a good place to be. And rejecting Christ's words like the parable of the rich man and Lazarus will of course, for you, make it all the more narrow.
 
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