There is no Hell!

[Ben12]

Soundcard

You sure do like laundry list. There are thousands that believe the way I do; there is something you are missing when you follow the traditions of Religion/Baby lon (note spelling) and not Christ.
You have a box you call truth; some how all the great wisdom and deepness of scripture must fit within that controlled area. Your truth like the Jews in their tradition; looking back; God’s Word is a progressive Word; it is not dead letter; it spiritual.

Pro. 25: 2

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter​

The Bible is so full of signs and symbols, types, shadows, parables, hidden manna and these realities are found and established all though the Bible. This is a book of the Revelations or unveiling of Jesus Christ; that is what the title declares and that is the message. No where does this book declare it is a book of prophesy; nor does it declare it is literal. This message is not like some fairy tale in children’s hour; it is deep and hidden for those with spiritual ears and eyes to see and hears to hear; not religious eyes and ears. God is spiritual and is the essence of life; that which is spiritual is beyond human/ carnal/religious understanding and is deep; the letter killeth; in other words the carnal earthy understanding killeth. God is real; substantial; but God is Spirit and is truth; only though God’s Spirit will these symbolism be understood.

Revelations is the most spiritual and awesome book of the Bible; I believe Genesis takes second place; but both of these book are so pregnant with hidden mysteries it will totally bring you face to face with God’s GLORY and his plan for all mankind.

Revelations 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:​

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

John 16:13

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:and he will shew you things to come.​

​

John 4:2423But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This is one of my favorite sections of the Bible it shows us where we should worship and how we should worship; but I have to ask you what is spirit and truth? Is truth old; or is it new. Is it hidden or in plain site; is it revelation or is it tradition. Is there one religion that has truth and the rest have very little; or no religions have all the truth. You are so bitter and condemning of our spiritual interpretation. You are so against the words that go contrary to your understanding.


Matthew 13
13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

13:15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'

13:16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;


How and why would God hide His truth; right in front of our eyes and The Book of Revelations is a perfect example of what I am speaking of. Because He wants us to grow spiritually so we can hear Him and not man and His religion. My sheep know my voice; a sheep is a mature creature (sheep is a symbolism); The Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth; now that’s pretty deep; God had a savior before He had a sinner. Lake of Fire or (Gk) Lake of Devine (brimstone) Purging (Fire) all small examples of Scriptural symbolism and the Book of Revelations is pregnant with these symbols. Take the Book of Mormon there is no symbolism; because it was written by the hand of man.

 

[SoundCard]

Hm. To further this discussion better, can I ask what translation of the Bible you're using exactly? And what exactly do you mean by laundry list?

 

[Tavita]

Hi Ben,

I tried to PM you but I'm not able.

Just want to let you know I appreciate your posts and I'm learning a great deal from them. They speak of light and life, and the love of Christ, and the 'good news' of the gospel... such a change from the 'damnable heresies' preached from the traditions of man.

Keep up the good work..

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Soundcard

You sure do like laundry list. There are thousands that believe the way I do; there is something you are missing when you follow the traditions of Religion/Baby lon (note spelling) and not Christ.
You have a box you call truth; some how all the great wisdom and deepness of scripture must fit within that controlled area. Your truth like the Jews in their tradition; looking back; God’s Word is a progressive Word; it is not dead letter; it spiritual.

Pro. 25: 2

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter​

The Bible is so full of signs and symbols, types, shadows, parables, hidden manna and these realities are found and established all though the Bible. This is a book of the Revelations or unveiling of Jesus Christ; that is what the title declares and that is the message. No where does this book declare it is a book of prophesy; nor does it declare it is literal. This message is not like some fairy tale in children’s hour; it is deep and hidden for those with spiritual ears and eyes to see and hears to hear; not religious eyes and ears. God is spiritual and is the essence of life; that which is spiritual is beyond human/ carnal/religious understanding and is deep; the letter killeth; in other words the carnal earthy understanding killeth. God is real; substantial; but God is Spirit and is truth; only though God’s Spirit will these symbolism be understood.

Revelations is the most spiritual and awesome book of the Bible; I believe Genesis takes second place; but both of these book are so pregnant with hidden mysteries it will totally bring you face to face with God’s GLORY and his plan for all mankind.

Revelations 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:​

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

John 16:13

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:and he will shew you things to come.​

​

John 4:2423But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This is one of my favorite sections of the Bible it shows us where we should worship and how we should worship; but I have to ask you what is spirit and truth? Is truth old; or is it new. Is it hidden or in plain site; is it revelation or is it tradition. Is there one religion that has truth and the rest have very little; or no religions have all the truth. You are so bitter and condemning of our spiritual interpretation. You are so against the words that go contrary to your understanding.


Matthew 13
13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

13:15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'

13:16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;


How and why would God hide His truth; right in front of our eyes and The Book of Revelations is a perfect example of what I am speaking of. Because He wants us to grow spiritually so we can hear Him and not man and His religion. My sheep know my voice; a sheep is a mature creature (sheep is a symbolism); The Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth; now that’s pretty deep; God had a savior before He had a sinner. Lake of Fire or (Gk) Lake of Devine (brimstone) Purging (Fire) all small examples of Scriptural symbolism and the Book of Revelations is pregnant with these symbols. Take the Book of Mormon there is no symbolism; because it was written by the hand of man.

Ah, you try so hard XD. Unfortunately, you choose to take some passages, like the ones from Matthew 13, as literal, but not the rest, eh ; ). Oh, I know what you are trying to say, but you are off. Have you stop to observe the world lately, or what it thinks about the bible? If you have, then you'll understand what those passages mean by the truth is hidden. It is in plain sight, it is what is actually said. The fact is, few people even notice what is said or listen or understand it. You are ignoring whole scriptures to try to support your point, that is a perfect example of someone not seeing the truth that's infront of their face!

You say it is no fairy tale, yet then you say to take it figuratively however you wish? Isn't that what fairy tale are all about? Only if it is literal sometimes and only if it's meanings are absolute even in the figurative parts is it something real and not a fairy tale. Gravity is not something you can take figuratively however you wish! It is real! Even if we don't understand what it is, we know the literality of it.

You cannot pick and choose what you will take as literal and what you will take as figurative. That lacks all credibility. For who are YOU to judge and tell me what is literal of figurative? If you will not use the clues from the grammer and words themselves to know what is literal or figurative, then you are lost! Utterly lost!

Let me give you an example. Back in the 1920's and 1800's, there was a lot of theological writting about how the restoration of the Nation of Israel as prophesied by Isaiah was only figurative since no one in their right mind could even imagine how Israel as a nation would ever come into existance again (After all, Britain controlled that area of the world for a long long time). Then came along 1948, hareld before hand by a massive world war. And boom, in the moment of a day, a single hour, just as Isaiah prophesied that it would happen over night too, the nation of Israel was brought into existence by the United Nations, lead by the United States. It was something unheard of before then. No other time in history up till then had a nation formed over night, just as Isaiah had said would happen. What Isaiah had said was LITERAL in the end, not figurative. But there were plenty of people before then like you who would never except that God can do exactly what He says : ). Sorry, it's a rude awakening, I know, but He can and He Will.

You absolutely, I can not stress this enough, absolutely cannot pick and choose what you THINK or FEEL is literal or not. The text will make it plain and outright as day. But you are not God and you cannot say all the depths of every meaning. Yes, there is so much treasure and hidden things in the bible. So much depth to it. Some passages can have multiple layers of truth, it is so amazing! But it is the literalness of the bible which is also amazing. Look at the first five books, look at the law, at the medical practices that God sets up. Never is there superstition, but actually sound scientific methods to dealing with disease, thousands of years before anyone understood what disease was! God tells how to make lye soap, that formula and its use is only found first in the bible before microbes were understood (1800's)! People practiced it because it was in the Word. They took it literally and it saved countless lives.

There is so much amazing history in the bible too. All the time archaeologists are discovering history from the bible. There's an entire archaeological society founded on biblical archeology, for there is no ancient book more true or amazing or full of history than the bible. Every historical thing that people said was figurative, they've one by one been finding literal relics and proof of, like Solomon's markers, the Hittites (they were originally thought to not exist till the early 1900's! And were often used to try to debunk the bible since the Hittites were described to use Iron in an age long before anyone else had Iron. And you know what? They discovered the Hittites were real, and hey, they DID have iron hundreds of years before the rest of the world. Imagine that, the bible was literally right, woot)

And there is more than that. What about reason, rationality? Still you cannot answer why you'd need a savior without something to be saved from! Your ideas have no logical or rational basing. They are contradictory of the very idea and fact of Christ and the bible. They make no sense even in the context of themselves (why do you need priests if there is no reconciliation necessary eh?). Hell is real, the consequences of sin are real. The wages of sin is death and that is LITERAL, there is no figurative about it.

You are so close to the truth, Ben, but you fall short. You do not want to actually accept these things which are plainly stated as fact not metaphors, and it leaves me wondering why. I know you've probably had a lot of pain and lost loved ones in your life. But you have to realize, actions have consequences. Absolutely, actions MUST have consequences. If you jump off a 20 story building the consequence of that action is death. Absolutely unless God intervenes. That's what Christ is. God's intervention so we don't have to perish. But if you deny Christ, you WILL perish. You cannot accept or receive something in a passive way. Both those acts are active, not passive. Yet, God alone knows the heart. Even those who you thought were lost may not be, and vice versa. But I tell you, there is a hell and unless you reach with the Gospel of Christ, which is the Good News (why does there have to be good news if there is no hell, eh?), to your loved ones, the sinners, and unsaved.

You, me, every single human on this earth are horrible, wretched, noisesome and rotten individuals. We are so terrible, so incredibly degenerate that even are very best works are nothing but filthy rages before God! All have fallen short of the Glory of God, all have sinned, and the wages of sin are DEATH. There is no figurative about this, sorry, no more than a WARNING HIGH VOLTAGE sign at a substation is figurative. Ignore the sign and you will still die, even if you try to say it's figurative and you don't believe it for what it is!

This is why Christ is the good news. Through Him we are sanctified and spared the destruction we oh so completely deserve.

 

[DeanM]

wow what a complicated discussion...I don't quite know what to say...I believe that those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be raised to eternal life with God, and those whose names are not written there will be raised to condemnation and will be thrown into the lake of fire. Satan, death and 'hades' are also thrown into the lake of fire. It seems that this will be hell. As to what happens before the Last Judgement, I really don't know...I guess the saved will be happy with God, and the unsaved will either be in separation from Him, or in pain, or won't be able to see Him at all until Judgement.

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation. 20: 11-15

I am curious if there is a possibilty that all this has already happened.

Forgive me if it is obvious, but I tend to zone out whenever the book of Revelations is open.

 

[IisJustMe]

From another "class of "52'er" ... it was a very good year!

 

[Tavita]

From another "class of "52'er" ... it was a very good year!

Hiya, IisJustMe!!

Thanks for the happy birthday.

Yep, '52 was a good year.. I have a 1952 Australian penny made into a fridge magnet, and they are fairly rare... just like us, huh?.. rare and unique!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I am curious if there is a possibilty that all this has already happened.

Forgive me if it is obvious, but I tend to zone out whenever the book of Revelations is open.

Hi I think that this hasn't happened yet, because right before this it talks about the Second Coming, etc. Revelations is a prophesy about the end times.

 

[Tavita]

Ah, you try so hard XD. Unfortunately, you choose to take some passages, like the ones from Matthew 13, as literal, but not the rest, eh ; ). Oh, I know what you are trying to say, but you are off. Have you stop to observe the world lately, or what it thinks about the bible? If you have, then you'll understand what those passages mean by the truth is hidden. It is in plain sight, it is what is actually said. The fact is, few people even notice what is said or listen or understand it. You are ignoring whole scriptures to try to support your point, that is a perfect example of someone not seeing the truth that's infront of their face!

You say it is no fairy tale, yet then you say to take it figuratively however you wish? Isn't that what fairy tale are all about? Only if it is literal sometimes and only if it's meanings are absolute even in the figurative parts is it something real and not a fairy tale. Gravity is not something you can take figuratively however you wish! It is real! Even if we don't understand what it is, we know the literality of it.

You cannot pick and choose what you will take as literal and what you will take as figurative. That lacks all credibility. For who are YOU to judge and tell me what is literal of figurative? If you will not use the clues from the grammer and words themselves to know what is literal or figurative, then you are lost! Utterly lost!

Let me give you an example. Back in the 1920's and 1800's, there was a lot of theological writting about how the restoration of the Nation of Israel as prophesied by Isaiah was only figurative since no one in their right mind could even imagine how Israel as a nation would ever come into existance again (After all, Britain controlled that area of the world for a long long time). Then came along 1948, hareld before hand by a massive world war. And boom, in the moment of a day, a single hour, just as Isaiah prophesied that it would happen over night too, the nation of Israel was brought into existence by the United Nations, lead by the United States. It was something unheard of before then. No other time in history up till then had a nation formed over night, just as Isaiah had said would happen. What Isaiah had said was LITERAL in the end, not figurative. But there were plenty of people before then like you who would never except that God can do exactly what He says : ). Sorry, it's a rude awakening, I know, but He can and He Will.

You absolutely, I can not stress this enough, absolutely cannot pick and choose what you THINK or FEEL is literal or not. The text will make it plain and outright as day. But you are not God and you cannot say all the depths of every meaning. Yes, there is so much treasure and hidden things in the bible. So much depth to it. Some passages can have multiple layers of truth, it is so amazing! But it is the literalness of the bible which is also amazing. Look at the first five books, look at the law, at the medical practices that God sets up. Never is there superstition, but actually sound scientific methods to dealing with disease, thousands of years before anyone understood what disease was! God tells how to make lye soap, that formula and its use is only found first in the bible before microbes were understood (1800's)! People practiced it because it was in the Word. They took it literally and it saved countless lives.

There is so much amazing history in the bible too. All the time archaeologists are discovering history from the bible. There's an entire archaeological society founded on biblical archeology, for there is no ancient book more true or amazing or full of history than the bible. Every historical thing that people said was figurative, they've one by one been finding literal relics and proof of, like Solomon's markers, the Hittites (they were originally thought to not exist till the early 1900's! And were often used to try to debunk the bible since the Hittites were described to use Iron in an age long before anyone else had Iron. And you know what? They discovered the Hittites were real, and hey, they DID have iron hundreds of years before the rest of the world. Imagine that, the bible was literally right, woot)

And there is more than that. What about reason, rationality? Still you cannot answer why you'd need a savior without something to be saved from! Your ideas have no logical or rational basing. They are contradictory of the very idea and fact of Christ and the bible. They make no sense even in the context of themselves (why do you need priests if there is no reconciliation necessary eh?). Hell is real, the consequences of sin are real. The wages of sin is death and that is LITERAL, there is no figurative about it.

You are so close to the truth, Ben, but you fall short. You do not want to actually accept these things which are plainly stated as fact not metaphors, and it leaves me wondering why. I know you've probably had a lot of pain and lost loved ones in your life. But you have to realize, actions have consequences. Absolutely, actions MUST have consequences. If you jump off a 20 story building the consequence of that action is death. Absolutely unless God intervenes. That's what Christ is. God's intervention so we don't have to perish. But if you deny Christ, you WILL perish. You cannot accept or receive something in a passive way. Both those acts are active, not passive. Yet, God alone knows the heart. Even those who you thought were lost may not be, and vice versa. But I tell you, there is a hell and unless you reach with the Gospel of Christ, which is the Good News (why does there have to be good news if there is no hell, eh?), to your loved ones, the sinners, and unsaved.

You, me, every single human on this earth are horrible, wretched, noisesome and rotten individuals. We are so terrible, so incredibly degenerate that even are very best works are nothing but filthy rages before God! All have fallen short of the Glory of God, all have sinned, and the wages of sin are DEATH. There is no figurative about this, sorry, no more than a WARNING HIGH VOLTAGE sign at a substation is figurative. Ignore the sign and you will still die, even if you try to say it's figurative and you don't believe it for what it is!

This is why Christ is the good news. Through Him we are sanctified and spared the destruction we oh so completely deserve.

Nice spiel, Zero, but you have yet to refute Ben12 in anything. What you have put forth is what I learned in the Christian Church system over many many years, but I finally came to see the truth, when I allowed the Spirit of God to teach me, Himself. As Ben12 said there are thousands of Christians who are coming to see the truth, that Christ has already saved ALL.

 

[IisJustMe]

just like us, huh?.. rare and unique!

 

[SoundCard]

Yes, he has saved ALL, ALL who will come to him in FAITH and be saved by their FAITH, and ALL who have FAITH will be saved by that FAITH. If ALL are saved already, then who is it talking about in Revelations when it says anyone who's name isn't found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire? And don't say that means Satan and his demons as it mentions those will be sent there along WITH them. Face it, the reality here is different then the one you've come to perceive. Not EVERYONE will be SAVED because NOT EVERYONE will come to Christ in FAITH. If you say Zero hasn't refuted anything, then you haven't been reading what's been said. And if thousands believe what you and Ben12 have come to believe as truth, well I'm sorry to say, but you've been deceived!

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Nice spiel, Zero, but you have yet to refute Ben12 in anything. What you have put forth is what I learned in the Christian Church system over many many years, but I finally came to see the truth, when I allowed the Spirit of God to teach me, Himself. As Ben12 said there are thousands of Christians who are coming to see the truth, that Christ has already saved ALL.

Whoa there now. I haven't refuted him on anything? Have you even read a single one of my post? I mean, seriously. Have I not quoted scripture showing he's wrong? Have I not used logical reasoning showing he's wrong? Have I not used analogy, metaphors, literal examples showing he's wrong? What have I not done to show he's wrong? And can you refute a single argument of mine? Even he dodges many of my arguments because he cannot!

If thousands of Christians are coming to believe what is against the scriptures, then we are heading into a very dark time. But isn't this prophesied to happen? Isn't it said that many would abandon the gospel for false doctrines and teachings before the last days?

I speak only what the scriptures themselves actually say, actually in words state. If you think the scriptures are wrong, then there is nothing to say to you and there is no point in further discussion.

 

[Ben12]

Hm. To further this discussion better, can I ask what translation of the Bible you're using exactly? And what exactly do you mean by laundry list?

I like to use King James as a foundation; a place of reference; I pretty much use them all. What I mean by laundry list is When you pile on questions as if I could give a simple answer.

 

[Ben12]

Hi Ben,

I tried to PM you but I'm not able.

Just want to let you know I appreciate your posts and I'm learning a great deal from them. They speak of light and life, and the love of Christ, and the 'good news' of the gospel... such a change from the 'damnable heresies' preached from the traditions of man.

Keep up the good work..

Sorry I will look into it; I think i checked the wrong box. My faught. I appriciate you too; we make a pretty good team. Got some haevy hitters out there and alot of tradition to cut slice.

 

[SoundCard]

I like to use King James as a foundation; a place of reference; I pretty much use them all. What I mean by laundry list is When you pile on questions as if I could give a simple answer.

Does it have to be a simple answer? Wouldn't any complexity of answer suffice? We're looking for the truth here aren't we? And if it's hidden, then let's reveal it shall we? And as far as traditions go, I'm non-denominational. I don't really belong to any long established churches that are "steeped in tradition". The ONLY thing I've been using really is the Bible itself to help me understand God's side of things.

 

[spiritlead]

I like to use King James as a foundation; a place of reference; I pretty much use them all. What I mean by laundry list is When you pile on questions as if I could give a simple answer.

Ben, The Holy Spirit has recently opened my eyes to the lake of fire being spiritual, even to the non-beleivers, they will bow and be spiritually purified after the great white throne, yea?

 

[SoundCard]

Ben, The Holy Spirit has recently opened my eyes to the lake of fire being spiritual, even to the non-beleivers, they will bow and be spiritually purified after the great white throne, yea?

Ok, then another thing I ask for for clarification sakes. What exactly do you mean when you say "The Lake of fire is spiritual"? It is quite a spirit involved event, God being involved and all. But do you mean spiritual, or are you implying metaphorical? There is a staunch difference here, and if I'm not understanding your point of view, we can't rightly discern the truth here can we?

 

[spiritlead]

Ok, then another thing I ask for for clarification sakes. What exactly do you mean when you say "The Lake of fire is spiritual"? It is quite a spirit involved event, God being involved and all. But do you mean spiritual, or are you implying metaphorical? There is a staunch difference here, and if I'm not understanding your point of view, we can't rightly discern the truth here can we?

The same spiritual fire that refines our christian life now

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Ben, The Holy Spirit has recently opened my eyes to the lake of fire being spiritual, even to the non-beleivers, they will bow and be spiritually purified after the great white throne, yea?

Give me the specific verse that says that non-believers will be purified and recieved into heaven after the Final Judgment. I'm just not seeing it. All I see is "death", "destroy", "blotted out", and "be remembered no more". You know, all those words for ceasing to be piled on in so many different ways must not obviously mean they will cease to be, eh? Oh wait! There IS no verse that says they will be purified : D (rather, that's exclusive to believers alone through Christ's blood and not punishment or a lake of fire; tough break). Nope, all the verses say destroy, and not destroy unrighteousness or destroy sins, but destroy the unrighteous and the sinner. Last time I checked, I didn't say "it's time to destroy the clothes" when I meant wash in the laundry... Hmmm... Nah, it obviously can't mean what it obviously says, nope. *sighs*

 

[Ben12]

Ah, you try so hard XD. Unfortunately, you choose to take some passages, like the ones from Matthew 13, as literal, but not the rest, eh ; ). Oh, I know what you are trying to say, but you are off. Have you stop to observe the world lately, or what it thinks about the bible? If you have, then you'll understand what those passages mean by the truth is hidden. It is in plain sight, it is what is actually said. The fact is, few people even notice what is said or listen or understand it. You are ignoring whole scriptures to try to support your point, that is a perfect example of someone not seeing the truth that's infront of their face!

You say it is no fairy tale, yet then you say to take it figuratively however you wish? Isn't that what fairy tale are all about? Only if it is literal sometimes and only if it's meanings are absolute even in the figurative parts is it something real and not a fairy tale. Gravity is not something you can take figuratively however you wish! It is real! Even if we don't understand what it is, we know the literality of it.

You cannot pick and choose what you will take as literal and what you will take as figurative. That lacks all credibility. For who are YOU to judge and tell me what is literal of figurative? If you will not use the clues from the grammer and words themselves to know what is literal or figurative, then you are lost! Utterly lost!

Let me give you an example. Back in the 1920's and 1800's, there was a lot of theological writting about how the restoration of the Nation of Israel as prophesied by Isaiah was only figurative since no one in their right mind could even imagine how Israel as a nation would ever come into existance again (After all, Britain controlled that area of the world for a long long time). Then came along 1948, hareld before hand by a massive world war. And boom, in the moment of a day, a single hour, just as Isaiah prophesied that it would happen over night too, the nation of Israel was brought into existence by the United Nations, lead by the United States. It was something unheard of before then. No other time in history up till then had a nation formed over night, just as Isaiah had said would happen. What Isaiah had said was LITERAL in the end, not figurative. But there were plenty of people before then like you who would never except that God can do exactly what He says : ). Sorry, it's a rude awakening, I know, but He can and He Will.

You absolutely, I can not stress this enough, absolutely cannot pick and choose what you THINK or FEEL is literal or not. The text will make it plain and outright as day. But you are not God and you cannot say all the depths of every meaning. Yes, there is so much treasure and hidden things in the bible. So much depth to it. Some passages can have multiple layers of truth, it is so amazing! But it is the literalness of the bible which is also amazing. Look at the first five books, look at the law, at the medical practices that God sets up. Never is there superstition, but actually sound scientific methods to dealing with disease, thousands of years before anyone understood what disease was! God tells how to make lye soap, that formula and its use is only found first in the bible before microbes were understood (1800's)! People practiced it because it was in the Word. They took it literally and it saved countless lives.

There is so much amazing history in the bible too. All the time archaeologists are discovering history from the bible. There's an entire archaeological society founded on biblical archeology, for there is no ancient book more true or amazing or full of history than the bible. Every historical thing that people said was figurative, they've one by one been finding literal relics and proof of, like Solomon's markers, the Hittites (they were originally thought to not exist till the early 1900's! And were often used to try to debunk the bible since the Hittites were described to use Iron in an age long before anyone else had Iron. And you know what? They discovered the Hittites were real, and hey, they DID have iron hundreds of years before the rest of the world. Imagine that, the bible was literally right, woot)

And there is more than that. What about reason, rationality? Still you cannot answer why you'd need a savior without something to be saved from! Your ideas have no logical or rational basing. They are contradictory of the very idea and fact of Christ and the bible. They make no sense even in the context of themselves (why do you need priests if there is no reconciliation necessary eh?). Hell is real, the consequences of sin are real. The wages of sin is death and that is LITERAL, there is no figurative about it.

You are so close to the truth, Ben, but you fall short. You do not want to actually accept these things which are plainly stated as fact not metaphors, and it leaves me wondering why. I know you've probably had a lot of pain and lost loved ones in your life. But you have to realize, actions have consequences. Absolutely, actions MUST have consequences. If you jump off a 20 story building the consequence of that action is death. Absolutely unless God intervenes. That's what Christ is. God's intervention so we don't have to perish. But if you deny Christ, you WILL perish. You cannot accept or receive something in a passive way. Both those acts are active, not passive. Yet, God alone knows the heart. Even those who you thought were lost may not be, and vice versa. But I tell you, there is a hell and unless you reach with the Gospel of Christ, which is the Good News (why does there have to be good news if there is no hell, eh?), to your loved ones, the sinners, and unsaved.

You, me, every single human on this earth are horrible, wretched, noisesome and rotten individuals. We are so terrible, so incredibly degenerate that even are very best works are nothing but filthy rages before God! All have fallen short of the Glory of God, all have sinned, and the wages of sin are DEATH. There is no figurative about this, sorry, no more than a WARNING HIGH VOLTAGE sign at a substation is figurative. Ignore the sign and you will still die, even if you try to say it's figurative and you don't believe it for what it is!

This is why Christ is the good news. Through Him we are sanctified and spared the destruction we oh so completely deserve.

What matters is not the literal or spiritual; what matters is what God is saying. There are degrees of reality; anybody including me can drink milk; it’s the spiritual T Bone is where you got to have spiritual teeth to chew on. Most people are only mature in their religion; they may be 100 years old and that is all they know. I see you are not denying there are hidden truth? But let me ask you if God revealed a reality to you right NOW that did not fit your preconceived religious bias; what would you do?

I love the history of the Bible; I love its literal Word when it is appropriate.

We have just started this Forum I have plenty to say about the salvation of all men; I have given you a few samples already. God’s Word is more then rational; it is spiritual and I guarantee if I know anything is I will trust the spirit of truth within; before I will trust any man made religion.