Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
This cannot be true if you read what I posted on thread #76. that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. Does not sound like any millennial reign to me. Sounds like God's Kingdom.Did I not point out that this alludes to the millennial reign? Doesn't Christ return to set up His kingdom for 1000 years? Then, after that, isn't Satan released from the abyss for one final show down, and it is then that the old heavens and old earth pass away, the Final Judgment happens; death, hades, and the unbelievers are thrown in the lake of fire and utterly destroyed, called the second death? These verses do NOT support your view. They simply expand on what will be done when Christ returns, which is, again, before the Final Judgment.
So? These people could easily be mistaken. Where's the proof form the bible that the view is right? I don't care what the world has done or what mere men have taught. Give me God's word, that alone will I judge this matter from.wow, I'm sorry, you're good at the Greek, huh? That's great, you have a good foundation.
Have you heard of the late William Barclay? He was a famous theologian, Greek scholar and translator, and, a universalist. Much of the early church believed in the salvation of all..
The Didascalia (the Catechetical school of Alexandria)
Pantaenus, first head of catechetical school at Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria, second head of catechetical school at Alexandria
Origen, greatest scholar of the early church
Athenasius, Archbishop of Alexandria
Didymus
Ambrose, Bishop
Ephraim
Chrysostum
Gregory of Nyssa, Bishop
Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop and President of the second Church council
Titus, Bishop of Bostra
These a just a few until Tertillian and Augustine came along. This is not just a new, end of days teaching.
The millennial reign is God's kingdom come to earth. That sound exactly like the millennial reign spot on. I'm pretty sure the new heavens and new earth will be a tad different from that one--that one is the same as this one just more prosperous since Christ is here. Or do you think that when Christ is on earth again for 1000 years that it'll be the same dump it is now? Especially when it's stated that it won't, but that it'll be marvelous? Yet, still nothing compared to what's really going to come after the end of that. 1000 years isn't forever, it's after that that the forever of Christ's kingdom begins, with the bang of the destruction of all that is as we know it. That is definitely still as we know it.This cannot be true if you read what I posted on thread #76. that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. Does not sound like any millennial reign to me. Sounds like God's Kingdom.
So? These people could easily be mistaken. Where's the proof form the bible that the view is right? I don't care what the world has done or what mere men have taught. Give me God's word, that alone will I judge this matter from.
Do you know Thomas Jefferson? He was a founding father of the United States. Did you know how horrible his theology was, or how he cut out all the miraculous and prophetic from the bible because he didn't have the faith to believe God could do such things? Should we follow his example because he's a famous guy? I'm sorry, I don't have a "follow them because they are famous" mentality.
Do you believe The Book of Revelations is literal or spiritual and if is literal where is your proof it is literal?The millennial reign is God's kingdom come to earth. That sound exactly like the millennial reign spot on. I'm pretty sure the new heavens and new earth will be a tad different from that one--that one is the same as this one just more prosperous since Christ is here. Or do you think that when Christ is on earth again for 1000 years that it'll be the same dump it is now? Especially when it's stated that it won't, but that it'll be marvelous? Yet, still nothing compared to what's really going to come after the end of that. 1000 years isn't forever, it's after that that the forever of Christ's kingdom begins, with the bang of the destruction of all that is as we know it. That is definitely still as we know it.
Why does it have to be exclusively spiritual or literal? For such an awesome book as you believe it to be, why can God not have it be both? I know that context is important, but here's something really interesting, scripture can have more than one meaning! So why is it impossible for Revelations to be both? Context is important, and it is why it should be carefully evaluated. What God is saying is what he says, he could be speaking in a literal sense, as well as a spiritual sense. It can be both ways, but it can't be ignored as to what it is. It's one thing to have to decide what a scripture means either in a literal or spiritual sense, but the thing is you can't just absolve the entirety of it from being placed correctly into context. To absolve it from both is a fallacy, but to say it cannot contain both is a blunder.Do you believe The Book of Revelations is literal or spiritual and if is literal where is your proof it is literal?
I do not believe for a moment is a mixture of both spiritual and literal. Revelations is a book of symbolism; and is not literal. Yes there are literal Churches or assemblies; but there is a deep spiritual hidden message under the surface. Look closely at that first chapter and there are all kinds of foundations that establish revelations in this context. Many brother’s in the Lord try to spiritualize one part of Revelations, and then they will literalize another section when it fits their understanding; I see it totally as a spiritual book even when I am unsure of some of its meaning. Book of Revelations is the Revelation’s of Jesus Christ with in us; not without.Why does it have to be exclusively spiritual or literal?
Why then didn't John write about it in the scriptures? This is hearsay, not scriptural. Sorry, I don't follow what someone says if it's against the bible straight on. There's plenty of people like that around, far more than there are Christians, mind you. And how many people held the other view in that day? How many people have in the church created horrible views and false doctrines, aren't we warned against that? And in fact, along with that warning, doesn't it say to protect ourselves we must judge everything by the Word?Some of these people were taught directly by the Apostle John, who then went on to teach others. Do you mean to say he's wrong and we shouldn't listen to him?
There are places that are both. Isn't that obvious? A giant mountain, all aflame, falling to the earth, hitting th seas and wiping out 1/3rd of sea life. That's an asteroid my friend, and that is very much real and literal. Then there are other things, like the 200 million demons who were like horsemen. They weren't really, but there's plenty of "like"s and "as"s to signify he's being metaphorical. John, like any mortal has a limited vocabulary and that has to be taken into account when describing events beyond one's very frame of reference. What he saw is obviously literal however, as he saw it happen.Do you believe The Book of Revelations is literal or spiritual and if is literal where is your proof it is literal?
This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; signified or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.
Also let us not forget John was in Spirit on the Lords day; show me the scriptural proof that revelations should somehow be interpreted literally/carnally? Or as a mixture of spiritual and literals as you believe is true?Why does it have to be exclusively spiritual or literal? For such an awesome book as you believe it to be, why can God not have it be both? I know that context is important, but here's something really interesting, scripture can have more than one meaning! So why is it impossible for Revelations to be both? Context is important, and it is why it should be carefully evaluated. What God is saying is what he says, he could be speaking in a literal sense, as well as a spiritual sense. It can be both ways, but it can't be ignored as to what it is. It's one thing to have to decide what a scripture means either in a literal or spiritual sense, but the thing is you can't just absolve the entirety of it from being placed correctly into context. To absolve it from both is a fallacy, but to say it cannot contain both is a blunder.
So that automatically means some of what he saw couldn't have been literal events?Also let us not forget John was in Spirit on the Lords day; show me the scriptural proof that revelations should somehow be interpreted literally/carnally? Or as a mixture of spiritual and literals as you believe is true?
Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Hm, didn't I already prove that to you when showing the prophesy from Isaiah about Isreal being restored as a nation in a day? Or what about when Isaiah prophesies about Cyrus the Mede and what he would do 200+ years before the man's birth? Prophesies about him by name? Isn't that more than a tad literal? In fact, there is no prophesy that hasn't come to pass except those about the end times, and all those prophesies that I know of happened literally. Look at all the prophesies about the Messiah that He had to fulfill to be able to be the Messiah, and He had to do so literally. Be born of a virgin, in Bethlehem, be crucified, not have any bones broken (as was the common practice by the romans back then when a person was taking too long to die), have his side pierced, have his clothes be gambled over for money, etc etc etc. All of these prophesies were totally literal.Also let us not forget John was in Spirit on the Lords day; show me the scriptural proof that revelations should somehow be interpreted literally/carnally? Or as a mixture of spiritual and literals as you believe is true?
Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Sorry, got cut off before I really answered you correctly. And didn't I already show such proof that Revelation should be taken as a mixture? I already showed you the prophesy that absolutely describes an asteroid strike on earth. How could that be metaphorical about spiritual matters! And a comet strike. And the beast, the sign of the beast, the sores on their body and how horrible it would be.. water turning to blood, the oceans then the rivers.. Hey, God's done it before, is it so surprising? Earthquakes, etc etc. You'd never be able to put them all into anything but literal contexts, as they are talking about literal events and happenings that affect the very planet, plant and animal life, not just people and their souls.Also let us not forget John was in Spirit on the Lords day; show me the scriptural proof that revelations should somehow be interpreted literally/carnally? Or as a mixture of spiritual and literals as you believe is true?
Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Revelations is as I quoted before the revelation or unveiling of Jesus Chrsit.Not a book of prophecy? Then what exactly is this passage talking about?
Revelation 15:1 NIV
1I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagueslast, because with them God's wrath is completed.
If that's not talking about a future event, then point to me what it means spiritually.
Never in Revelation does it say they repent, but the opposite. And what about what it says about all those who take the name of the beast and worship his image? What does that verse say? That they will be utterly destroyed. Not transformed, not repent, but destroyed. Don't you know that even demons have to bow before Jesus and confess He is God? Why? Not because they repent of their ways, but because they must acknowledge that God is sovereign and they are not. "Just and true are your ways!" the angels sing in Revelation, and does not the angel who has charge over the rivers and the streams declare how just and mighty God's wrath is to turn them all to blood?Revelations is as I quoted before the revelation or unveiling of Jesus Chrsit.
Rev. 15:1"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God." (Revelation 15:1). After making mention of this "sign in heaven," John proceeds with a brief summarization of the victory of the overcomers, as if to say, "Let these points be strong in your vision, before I tell you of the plagues." These will be the "last plagues," as with them God's wrath, His indignation against all unrighteousness, is finished, reaches its climax, and is ended.
"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire." This was first mentioned in Revelation 4:6, "And before the throne was a sea of glass like unto crystal." But now there is an added qualification, "mingled with fire." Truly the overcomer can stand thereon, because the cleansing of His consuming fire has done its work within. There is no negative reaction to the fire. There is no fear of exposure, or scrutiny. While it is written, "There is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known," (Matthew 10:26), yet these can be transparent before all, and stand unashamed. When everything within us is pure, as He is pure, let the unveilings take place-- we can stand upon the sea of glass, and rejoice that we have been made partakers of His righteousness.
"And I saw... them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."
"The song of Moses," was a song of deliverance, exalting the power of God, magnifying the One who brought them through in victory. "Then sang Moses... this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for He hath triumphed gloriously... The Lord is my strength and my song, and He is become my salvation: He is my God... Who is like unto Thee, O Lord, among the gods ? Who is like unto Thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders..." (Exodus 15:1-2, 11).
"And the song of the Lamb." Now the song expands to another dimension, for the Lamb is the REDEEMER of all men, and He sings of the totality of salvation for all mankind. "All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, O Lord; and shall glorify Thy name. For Thou art great, and doest wondrous things: Thou art God alone." (Psalm 86:9-10).
"And all flesh shall come to worship before Me, saith the Lord." (Isaiah 66:23).
"For He will famish all the gods of the earth, and men shall worship Him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the heathen." (Zephaniah 2:11).
"Saying, Great and marvelous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints. Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou only art holy: For all nations shall come and worship before Thee; for Thy judgments are made manifest."
Yes, the first fruits sing of victory over the beast, his mark, his image, his number. They exalt the One who has brought them into this deliverance. But then they go on to prophetically sing of the ultimate, that "ALL NATIONS shall come and worship before Thee." It is not just our deliverance-- it is what He has purposed for ALL men everywhere, including the far off isles of the sea.
With this VICTORY clearly in focus, let the outworking of it begin! "I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened." Out of this purified, qualified, holy temple of His dwelling, proceeds the ministry. The messengers are "clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles." Such oneness with the holiness and divine nature of God, their ministry is totally righteous, executing the will of God to perfection.
"And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."
"If you walk contrary unto Me, and will not hearken unto Me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. - I will walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins." (Leviticus 26:21, 24).
The certainty of justice and correction is sure-- not as a negative whipping as payment for sin, but as a chastening to teach, a discipline to learn-- "For when Thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." (Isaiah 26:9). The process is not an end in itself, but the means to an end-- through all the judgments a vital correction is made, bringing forth a "godly sorrow that worketh repentance to salvation." (2 Corinthians 7:10). His judgments do not save us, but they condition and prepare us to receive HIM who is our Salvation. They cause us to turn to the Lord in repentance, and we find He has been drawing us to Himself through it all.
So great is His glory and power that fills the temple, that no man can enter until their sevenfold cleansing is complete. This was prefigured in the early church, "And of the rest durst no man join himself to them..." (Acts 5:13). When GOD'S HOLINESS fills the temple, no man will be able to enter and retain his filthy garments. "Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness." (Matthew 22:12-13). The standard is not lowered to accommodate the world. The purgings will intensify until all are clean, clothed with His righteousness, and ready to be received by Christ.
"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." (Revelation 16:1). Then follows the plagues of purification. They correspond to that which we saw in the ministry of the seven trumpets, and are also prefigured in the plagues that came upon Egypt.
While the processings might be severe, yet "I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because Thou hast judged thus." - "And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Thy judgments." (Revelation 16:5, 7).
Truly we can bear witness, "He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He." (Deuteronomy 32:4).
Moffatt's translation reads: "Steadfast -He rules aright, HIS METHODS ARE IN ORDER DUE, a God trusty and wholly true, upright and honest." While Ferrar Fenton adds the thought, "ALL HIS LINES ARE STRAIGHT."
What a declaration! His work is perfect, all His lines are straight, His methods are in due order, all that He does is RIGHT! Therefore it rightly follows, "All His ways are judgment." Everything He does is to bring about a restoration and setting right that which has been perverted, distorted, defiled, etc. HE IS OUR GOD OF SALVATION! Were He to draw a line in your life, it would be a straight line-- and that means you would be brought into alignment with that uprightness. "I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a Father to Israel." (Jeremiah 31:9). All of His methods, His workings, are in proper order, proper time, perfect sequence, as He steadily draws you to Himself.
So long has Christendom programmed their doctrines with a negative view, that to read of the pouring out of the plagues brings a shudder, a fear, for all they see is calamity and distress, while actually God has promised the opposite. Full well He knows the propensity of humanity to do evil. He knows of the self-will and rebellion, that we have "turned every one to his own way." But He also has promised, "I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them." (Isaiah 42:16).
So ingrained is the self-will and rebellion of man, that the first strokes of judgment only harden them in their waywardness. "And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give Him glory." Yet even in their cursing they are forced to acknowledge that the Almighty God was in control, He had "power over the plagues." They blaspheme God in a reaction to their pain and distress. But while the wrath of God is love's severity, yet it remains purest love, seeking the ultimate good for creation, and so it continues to apply the strokes of chastisement. Repentance will come, but how great is the need for the inworking of His judgments, until that submission comes.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?