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There is no hell. (2)

Mikecpking

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It is only your assumption that those who were swallowed alive by the earth, died!

There is no scripture which identifies the lake of fire as Gehenna or states that anyone is destroyed in it. Rev 20:14 says that the angel of death and the demon of hell were thrown into the LOF and it says that this, being thrown in, is the second death.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
The first death does not result it annihilation and it is not permanent. Nothing says the second death is either! What happens in the LOF?
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Notice the eternal torture is reserved for the devil, false prophet and the beast, and the people who worshipped the beast and received the mark. But nothing is said of eternal torture for those simply thrown into the lake of fire. Do you think the do gooder agnostic will receive the same punishment as the devil? I think not.

Are you also implying there are 2 sets of fires? Where do we see Gehenna in Revelation???
 
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Der Alte

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It is not a requirement for a prophet to state "I'm speaking figuratively now," and if it is required that a prophet clearly state when he goes into metaphor, Why didn't Isaiah say "Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon exult over you and figuratively say..."

However, Isaiah does say in verse 4 that this is a taunt.
He didn't say, this is all to be taken literal except for that part about the talking trees.

When Israel became a taunt was the entire nation figurative? Deut 28:37, 1 King 9:7, Once again was there a literal king of Babylon, did he literally die, vs. 9, was he literally buried and did the worms eventually literally cover his body, vs. 11? And what subterfuges do you use to explain away the events in Ezekiel 32? There are no talking trees and no mention of taunt in the passage. How about Jesus in the NT, do we discount everything he said because he did use some figurative language? For example, Herod the fox, Simon the Stone, James and John sons of thunder.
 
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Mikecpking

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Anyone got a explanation for Matt. 22:31-33 in which Jesus revealed that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were alive? God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead. God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Therefore, they are presently alive.

What about Matt. 18:34-35?

And concerning 1 Samuel 28, that was Samuel speaking from heaven.
Samuel was arising from Sheol and was asleep in the grave (sheol)
To answer your question Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was actually alive unto God stating they will inherit eternal life at the last day when there is the general resurrection. (Dan 12:2, John 5:28, Acts 2:29-34)

You can't ignore the broad scriptures defining the state of the dead nor should you use scripture to argue against scripture.
 
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Der Alte

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Notice the eternal torture is reserved for the devil, false prophet and the beast, and the people who worshipped the beast and received the mark. But nothing is said of eternal torture for those simply thrown into the lake of fire. Do you think the do gooder agnostic will receive the same punishment as the devil? I think not.

Where does scripture say that eternal punishment is reserved for a certain group? I'm looking in my Bible for that list of which sins are greater or lesser than other sins. Can you tell me where it is? Doesn't the Bible say that if someone violates one point of the laws they violate it all?

Are you also implying there are 2 sets of fires? Where do we see Gehenna in Revelation???

What I said was scripture does not say that the lake of fire is/was Gehenna. The times that Jesus mentions Gehenna was he talking about the LOF, Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mar 9:43, 45, 47?
 
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agape101

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Yeah, you have Samuel who died and was consulted through a witch who come up from the ground (but not down from heaven). You have Elijah who never saw death and was taken up into heaven in a whirlwind. You have Jesus who come from above, took the form of a man, lived and died and resurrected and ascended to heaven



He must have sinned right before he died and ended up in Hell. Poor guy...
 
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agape101

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Equivocation! If eternal life = eternal living then eternal punishment must equal eternal punishing!



Circular argument! The Bible NEVER states "eternal death!" The phrase is "eternal punishment." Jesus said what he meant and meant what the said. If Jesus had intended to say "eternal death" that is what he would have said!



Jesus never said "eternal punishment." the word "eternal" is a millennium removed from Jesus.
 
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Timothew

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When Israel became a taunt was the entire nation figurative? Deut 28:37, 1 King 9:7, Once again was there a literal king of Babylon, did he literally die, vs. 9, was he literally buried and did the worms eventually literally cover his body, vs. 11? And what subterfuges do you use to explain away the events in Ezekiel 32? There are no talking trees and no mention of taunt in the passage. How about Jesus in the NT, do we discount everything he said because he did use some figurative language? For example, Herod the fox, Simon the Stone, James and John sons of thunder.
What you should try to do is to understand when the prophet is speaking figuratively and when he is speaking literally. There are no subterfuges. A taunt can use figures of speech even when the recipient of the taunt is a literal person.

This is really about understanding how people use language. Its more of an art than assuming everything is literal unless it is proven to be figurative.

The rule of the plain sense, good sense, nonsense, other sense sounds good and has nice repetition but ultimately it more important to understand what the writer means.

I am not using subterfuge, you and I just disagree about the meaning of some of the passages in a much loved book.
 
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Der Alte

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Jesus never said "eternal punishment." the word "eternal" is a millennium removed from Jesus.

That is what false religious groups which came into existence after 1845 teach, e.g. JW, LDS, SDA, UPCI, UU, OP, proto-WWCG, anti-trin MJ, kristadelfian, etc. But the truth is the word αιωνιος has always included the meaning "eternal!"

Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictinary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.

Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166.
αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).
Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​
166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​
2. &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.

"Aionios is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."
From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​
67.96 &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.

The most frequent use of aijwvnio" in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, aijwvnio" evidently carries certain implications associated with aijwvnio" in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.
Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​
&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”). For a more temporal use, see Rom. 16:25; Phlm. 15.
Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​
&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.
Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​
166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;
from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​
CL The Gk. word &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; aion, which is probably derived from aei, always, is distinguished from its Indo-European parallels (Lat. aevum and Eng. aye are cognate) in that it is thought of not so much from the point of view of an abstract period of time as from the point of view of the time in which one has lived. In Hom. aion is often parallel with psyche, soul, life (e.g. Il. 16, 453); in Hesiod (Frag. 161, 1) it denotes a life-span, and in Aeschylus (Sept. 742) a generation. Thence it can mean the time which one has already lived or will live, i.e. it can relate to past as to future. It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).

Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: "When the father who begot it* perceived that the image made by him of the eternal (aidion) gods moved and lived, he was delighted with his work; and, led by this delight, thought to make his work much more like that first exemplar." Inasmuch therefore as it (the intelligible universe) is an eternal (aidion) animal (living being), so he set about to make this (the sensible) universe such with all his power. The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, that which in fact we call time; that is, days and nights, and months and years, which did not subsist before the heaven began to be, then with its being established he operates their birth" (beginning to be, genesin auton). And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... Time therefore began with heaven. that they having begun with it may be dissolved with it, if there be indeed any dissolution of them, and according to the pattern of eternal (diaionias, in some MSS. aionion or -as) nature that it might be as like as possible to it. For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." And then he goes on to speak of stars and planets, etc., as connected with what was created in time. It is impossible to conceive any more positive statement that aion is distinct, and to be contrasted with what has a beginning and belongs to the flux of time. Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages. It is a careful opposition between eternity and ages; and aion and also aionios mean the former in contrast with ages. ]

In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *
NIDNTT Colin Brown​
Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). For this expression (name) has been divinely uttered by the ancients; for the completeness which embraces the time of the life of each, outside which there is nothing, according to nature, is called the aion of each. According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios. Aristotle has not the abstract thoughts of Plato as to ideas, and the paradeigma of what is visible, the latter being a produced image of the eternal paradeigma. He rests more in what is known by the senses; and makes this the eternal thing in itself. But the force of aion for both is a settled point; and Aristotle's explanation of aion as used for finite things, I have long held to be the true one; that is, the completeness of a thing's existence, so that according to its natural existence there is nothing outside or beyond it. It periechei the whole being of the thing. 126
 
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Der Alte

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Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. To say that they do not mean it in Greek, as Jukes and Farrar and S. Cox, and those they quote, is a denial of the statements of the very best authorities we can have on the subject. If Plato and Aristotle and Philo knew Greek, what these others say is false. That this is the proper sense of aionios in Scripture, is as certain as it is evident. In 2 Corinthians 4: 18, we have ta gar blepomena proskaira, ta de me blepomena aionia. That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.

0166 aionios &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
aijwvnio" (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. oi[khsi"; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ej" mnhvmhn aij.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 aij. cavri"=a gracious gift for all future time; Dit., Or. 383, 10 [I bc] eij" crovnon aij.; ECEOwen, oi\ko" aij.: JTS 38, ’37, 248-50) of the next life skhnai; aij. Lk 16:9 (cf. En. 39, 5). oijkiva, contrasted w. the oijkiva ejpivgeio", of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. diaqhvkh (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.) Hb 13:20. eujaggevlion Rv 14:6; kravto" in a doxolog. formula (=eij" tou;" aijw`na") 1 Ti 6:16. paravklhsi" 2 Th 2:16. luvtrwsi" Hb 9:12. klhronomiva (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; aij. ajpevcein tinav (opp. pro;" w{ran) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod. S. 4, 63, 4 dia; th;n ajsevbeian ejn a{/dou diatelei`n timwriva" aijwnivou tugcavnonta; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) kovlasi" aij. (Test. Reub. 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; krivma aij. Hb 6:2; qavnato" B 20:1. o[leqron (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. pu`r (4 Macc 12:12.—Sib. Or. 8, 401 fw`" aij.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (IQS 2, 8). aJnavrthma Mk 3:29 (v.l. krivsew" and aJmartiva"). On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; Sib. Or. 2, 336) in the Kingdom of God: zwh; aij. Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21 al.; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36 al.; 1J 1:2; 2:25 al.—D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also basileiva aij. 2 Pt 1:11 (cf. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Dit., Or. 569, 24 uJpe;r th`" aijwnivou kai; ajfqavrtou basileiva" uJmw`n; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life dovxa aij. 2 Ti 2:10 (cf. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—Sib. Or. 8, 410). aijwvnion bavro" dovxh" 2 Cor 4:17; swthriva aij. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of heavenly glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses ta; mh; blepovmena aijwvnia 2 Cor 4:18.—carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.
Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​
BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;
• Strong's - Greek 165

• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds

• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever); Aeon (personified as an evil force); existence, the present life (Mt 13:22; Mk 4.19)

• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.

In Hellenistic philosophy the concept of aeons contributed towards a solution of the problem of the world-order. The aeons were assumed to be mediating powers which bridge the infinite qualitative distinction between God and the world. They are an emanation of the divine pleroma, the fullness of the divine Being….

The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, which cannot always be pinned down with absolute certainty of meaning.., Heb., where the meaning is quite clear .. and naturally those cases where aion is used in the plural, all reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…

http://www.bibletexts.com/sh/hg/g0165.htm

aion - &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.

• aionion, aionios – &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;, &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.

• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)

• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – &#949;&#953;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#969;&#959;&#957; - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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What you should try to do is to understand when the prophet is speaking figuratively and when he is speaking literally. There are no subterfuges. A taunt can use figures of speech even when the recipient of the taunt is a literal person.

This is really about understanding how people use language. Its more of an art than assuming everything is literal unless it is proven to be figurative.

The rule of the plain sense, good sense, nonsense, other sense sounds good and has nice repetition but ultimately it more important to understand what the writer means.

I am not using subterfuge, you and I just disagree about the meaning of some of the passages in a much loved book.

What you need to understand is, in neither passage Isaiah 14, nor Ezekiel 32 is the prophet himself speaking. In both passages the words are clearly identified as "Thus saith the Lord," God himself is speaking. As I said God says what he means and means what he says! If you want to dismiss Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 32 as figurative you must prove that God was using false information about the state of the dead and what he "really" meant, FROM scripture! Good luck on that!
 
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Timothew

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On the day the Lord gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
The graveb below is all astir
to meet you at your coming
So who is speaking the taunt? God, Isaiah, or the people of the House of Jacob?

So your reply is irrelevant. I don't think "God was using false information," I think that you have trouble understanding what is written.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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So who is speaking the taunt? God, Isaiah, or the people of the House of Jacob?

So your reply is irrelevant. I don't think "God was using false information," I think that you have trouble understanding what is written.

God is commanding the people what to say!
Isa 14:3-4
(3)
And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee [Jacob and Israel, vs. 1] rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
(4) That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Isa 14:22-24
(22)
For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
(23) I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.
(24) The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:​
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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Originally Posted by MichaelTheeArchAngel
doh.gif
I pass!
Good move!
:D
Any others pass? :)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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0166 aionios &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY

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Great link! Thanks.

I do have a small study on that and one thing I saw in Revelation 14:11 was that there was no article "the" between the words "ages", as there were in the other verses. What is the significance of that, if any?

Reve 1:18
and the living One! And I became dead and behold! I am living into the Ages of the Ages amen. And I am having the Keysof the Hades and of the Death
eiV <1519> touV aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 14:11
And the smoke of the tormenting of them into Ages of Ages is ascending.
And not they are having rest of Day and of Night the Ones worshipping the Beast ....................
eiV <1519> aiwnaV <165> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 19:3
and a second time They have declared "Hallelujah and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages"
&#12288;
eiV <1519> touV aiwnaV twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 20:10
And the Devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the Lake of the fire and of sulfur, the where also the Beast and the False-prophet.
And they shall be being tormented of day and of night into the Ages of the Ages.
&#12288;
eiV <1519> touV <3588> aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 22:5
And night not is being there and need not they are having of a lamp and light of sun.
That Lord the God shall be lighting them, and they shall reigning into the Ages of the Ages.
&#12288;
eiV <1519> touV <3588> aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>




.
 
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