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Sorry, they are not in a "new state of existence," they are spiritually dead.
The bible clearly states one goes down to sheol or hades upon death, whether righteous or not. The bible also states that people become "the weak" (rephaim) in Isiah 14, Psalm 88 and Job 3. Do your research!
That is not a changed state from a fallen spirit,.. do your research yourself.
Chapter and verse?
In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.
9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)Also in the NT Jesus speaking about a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Your point?
Don't forget the talking trees in Isiah 14:8!
No, no, no,... you go look that up and educate yourself. The dead don't change being the dead, unless GOD wills it in Christ.
Sorry, the bible teaches all people go to sheol, stay in the grave until the resurrection (dan 12:2, John 5:28, 1 cor 15). Everyone goes before the judgement thrown. There is a seperation of 'sheep and goats'. Those who are in the book of life will receive eternal life and those not found in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire (rev 20)
Why do you not agree with that?
If you can't debate with scripture and theology, you have no more clout than saying 'I am right and you are wrong' without qualifying your position.
Der Alter,Did you even read my post? My point was stated in my comments which appear at the top of my post and just before the Ezekiel and Luke passages!
In Isaiah 14[:9-11] there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc. Here is another passage [Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31] where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc. Also in the NT Jesus speaking about a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, cried and said, asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.Do you have a point? The fact that one figure of speech is used in a passage is not license to interpret everything in the passage as figurative. Isaiah 14:4-20 is about the king of Babylon and we know that he did actually die, vs. 4, he was actually buried, v. 9, 11, and the worms covered his body, vs. 11. So, unless something can clearly be shown to be figurative, such as the talking trees, then it should be interpreted literally! And FYI the ancient Jews, remember them they actually spoke and read Hebrew, understood Isaiah 14:9-11 to be literal.
Jewish Encyclopedia -Gehenna
When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).
JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
The point is that we know Isaiah used figures of speech so it is misleading at best to insist that the rest of the passage must be taken literally. Isaiah said "you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon."
So these passages don't prove that dead people walk around and speak. It has also been my experience that dead people don't get up and move around.
Der Alter,
I merely stated one is is a rephaim in sheol. Then ypu posted your often copied and pasted view which is not relevant to the discussion. If you look in Isiah 14, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
The wording 'become weak' actually is translated from the Hebrew word 'rephaim' which is what people become after they have died and decomposed in the grave.
We are not discussing whether or not people are concious or unconscious, but the point is that when in sheol, people become 'rephaim' (the weak, or 'shadows', 'shades')
I'm sorry, you were the one who said they changed once they died, not I.
And this is NOT the first time you have mentioned "rephaim," is it? Pot-kettle? The passages I posted give more information on the condition/state of the dead in Sheol. The topic of this thread is "There is no hell." So my post was in fact relevant! The word "rephaim" does not occur in Isaiah 14:10, the word translated weak is חלה/chalah.
They changed into 'rephaim in sheol.
snip,..
Read more: JewishEncyclopedia.com - SHEOL
I highlighted the important part!
I find it interesting that you would use a Jewish resource that discounts the evidence of Christ,.........!?!
I'm sorry, but I won't consider that even remotely worthy of contemplating friend. You are on your own little wavelength there with this subject of yours.
Since we have the Hebrew scriptures, and is part of the bible, are saying there are parts of the bible we should throw out?
This is what the Jews believe and believe it or not, Jesus and Paul were both Jews and frequently quoted from the Old Testamaent.
And it is not a revelation that Jews rejected Jesus; they have been for nearly 2,000 years, but that does not mean the Old Testament is not valid scripture.
It merely proves again you don't or can't qualify your arguments.
Sorry friend, they on that site are stuck in the shades of the truth without Christ. You want to use that as a resource? Go ahead, but it will always be second best to a Christian source.
So here are 3 non Jewish sources which speak about rephaim in the context of a dead person between physical death and the resurrection.
Complete with biblical references and OT theologians' references..
H7496
ָרָפא
rāp̱ā‛: A masculine noun meaning shades, departed spirits, deceased ones, dead ones. The term always occurs in the plural form (rep̱āiym) and consistently denotes those who died and entered into a shadowy existence within šeôl (H7585) (Job_26:5; Pro_9:18; Isa_14:9). Three times the word is employed in direct parallelism with the Hebrew term for dead ones (mēṯiym, from mûṯ [H4191], to die) (Psa_88:10 [11]; Isa_26:14, Isa_26:19). "Shades" or deceased ones do not rise (Isa_26:14). They reside in a place of darkness and oblivion (Psa_88:10 [11]). They cannot praise God (Psa_88:10 [11]). The smooth words of the adulteress bring her victims down to death, to the place of the shades, never to return (Pro_21:16; cf. Pro_2:16-19; Pro_9:13-18). Yet even in the Old Testament, a confident resurrection hope was gloriously and joyously held out to those in Sheol who obeyed God while alive (Isa_26:19).
A lot of that you posted is just completely overboard with personal opinions. Sometimes just a decent word study is sufficient,.
.rāp̱ā‛: A masculine noun meaning shades, departed spirits, deceased ones, dead ones. The term always occurs in the plural form (rep̱ā’iym) and consistently denotes those who died and entered into a shadowy existence within še’ôl (H7585) (Job_26:5; Pro_9:18; Isa_14:9). Three times the word is employed in direct parallelism with the Hebrew term for dead ones (mēṯiym, from mûṯ [H4191], to die) (Psa_88:10 [11]; Isa_26:14, Isa_26:19). "Shades" or deceased ones do not rise (Isa_26:14). They reside in a place of darkness and oblivion (Psa_88:10 [11]). They cannot praise God (Psa_88:10 [11]). The smooth words of the adulteress bring her victims down to death, to the place of the shades, never to return (Pro_21:16; cf. Pro_2:16-19; Pro_9:13-18). Yet even in the Old Testament, a confident resurrection hope was gloriously and joyously held out to those in Sheol who obeyed God while alive (Isa_26:19).
I can't see any contradiction in your copy paste. It describes rephaim as departed or deceased ones...this is what I have been stating all along that dead people become rephaim in sheol/hades before the resurrection.
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