• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

There is no Free Will PERIOD

HarleyER

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2024
903
341
74
Toano
✟51,915.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
You forgot about Augustine and his Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints:

Once Augustine understood about Predestination, he asked for all his books to be recalled and burned. The reason being is that the idea of free will chanllenges the sovereignty and God's divine will.

Augustine's views on the sovereignty of God and Predestination was accepted at the Council of Orange. Pelagius views on Free Will was rejected as heresy. Cassian, a student of Pelegius, offered a second version of Pelagius view. Around 600AD some Pope decided to let both Augustine's and Cassian's view to coexist until the 1600 when the Council of Trent rejected Augustine's view and accepted Cassian's view.

Free will is nothing more than a water down version of Pelagius view, taken from the Catholic Church.

But we don't need to look at history to prove there is no such thing as "free will". If you really, really believe that man can make a choice and live for God, then for the next week always choose not to sin. It's that simple. Don't sin since you feel that everything is based upon choice. Let me know how that goes.
 
Upvote 0

Rose_bud

Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...
Apr 9, 2010
1,148
496
South Africa
✟82,444.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married

Hey HarleyER
IMO, Paul had no choice in being born into the chosen nation of Israel or as a Benjamite, with all its heritage. He most likely had a choice in becoming a Pharisee, but his heritage probably shaped this decision.
However, he did have a choice in rejecting or accepting Jesus as the Messiah. As we know, he initially resisted, like an ox kicking against the goads, futilely opposing the Spirit of God. As Stephen said, as your fathers resisted the Spirit, so do you. Paul being witness to the speech and the actions that followed. Thankfully, he surrendered to Gods overwhelming power, drawing him into the light, ironically through a blinding encounter first. God remains sovereign, and His grace overcomes all our stubborn attempts to refuse Him. Nonetheless, in His wisdom, He respects our decisions to either pledge allegiance to Him or not, doing so with immense long-suffering and patience.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,490
7,599
North Carolina
✟349,068.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
God's glory can be seen in creation.
Agreed. . .
What does the word of God show in Ro 9:11-24?

"Before Rebekah's twins were born or had done anything good or bad, she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' (Ge 25:23)
. . .It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
. . .Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me, 'Then why does God blame us? For who resists his will?'
But, who are you , O man, to talk back to God?
'Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" (Isa 29:16, 45:9)'
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use (human waste)?
What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--who prepared themselves for destruction?
What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy--whom he prepared in advance for glory---even
us. . .?

Ask God in prayer to work his understanding in your heart instead of your own on the matter.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
31,069
10,067
NW England
✟1,302,335.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What does the word of God show in Ro 9:11-24?

"Before Rebekah's twins were born or had done anything good or bad, she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' (Ge 25:23)
Yes - a child can't have 2 biological fathers and the chosen line, from which David and Jesus would come, was to be through Judah; Jacob's son, Isaac's grandson.

. . .It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Yes, it's all from God; not our good works.
. . .Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy,
He wants to have mercy on everyone because he is merciful, Nehemiah 9:31, 2 Peter 3:9, Luke 6:36.

and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
He doesn't want to harden people - Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God did.
If people keep rejecting God and quenching his Spirit there will come a time when they will be unable to respond to him.

Yes, God makes us all for different purposes.
He makes, and calls, some to be pastors, others to be plumbers. Some will have a higher calling with greater responsibilities than others. Some will be highly educated, others will work with their hands.
But this is about calling - as it was with Jacob and Esau - not character.
You realise that this whole passage is Paul talking to Jews who believed that they, alone, were God's people and would always be his people due to their relation to Abraham? All through the OT the Israelites believed they were above punishment because they were God's special people. They looked forward to "the day of the Lord" because then they would be vindicated and rewarded while everyone who had been outside of Israel and mocked and opposed them in some way, would receive what they deserved.
Paul is saying that Israel had a privileged background - they had the patriarchs, the law, the prophets and the promises of God. Yet they had rejected Christ; God's chosen one. And would/could be cut off from the vine so that the Gentiles could be grafted in, Romans 11:11-24, John 15:1.

None of this says that God made people sin so that he could save them from that sin.
You haven't answered the questions of my previous post; is a person who rescues others from a house fire which they, themselves, started, good or evil? What about someone who deliberately infects someone with an illness and later uses them to find a cure for that illness? Would you poison your child with drugs so that you could make them ill, cure them and allow everyone to say how great you were for doing so?
If you wouldn't treat your child - your flesh and blood - like that, how can you believe that of God? Or say that the God who IS love and who is perfect, is less loving than you are?

Ask God in prayer to work his understanding in your heart instead of your own on the matter.

You want me to ask God to show me that he has favourites, that he made people sin just so that he could save them and is less loving than the Bible says he is?
I wouldn't pray such a prayer.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,490
7,599
North Carolina
✟349,068.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Ro 9:11-24 is about God's sovereign (Ro 9:11-12) choice in election, as demonstrated in his sovereign choice of Jacob, based on nothing but his sovereign (unaccountable) choice to do so.
You realise that this whole passage is Paul talking to Jews
And you know this, how?

The recipients of the letter were the people of the church at Rome (1:7), who were predominantly Gentiles, while Jews did make up a substantial minority of the congregation (4:1, chps 9-11).
who believed that they, alone, were God's people and would always be his people due to their relation to Abraham?
The Jews in the Gentile church of Rome were Christians.

Paul wrote the letter to present the whole system of salvation to a church that had not received the teaching of an apostle before, where
he explained the relationship between Jew and Gentile in God's over-all plan of redemption. It seems the Jewish Christians were being rejected by the larger Gentile group in the church (14:1) because the Jewish believers still felt constrained to observe dietary laws and sacred days (14:2-6).
You want me to ask God to show me that he has favourites, that he made people sin just so that he could save them and is less loving than the Bible says he is?
Read that misrepresentation again. . .misrepresentation is not a "good look."

I want you to ask God to show you his understanding of it.
I wouldn't pray such a prayer.
You desire an understanding other than God's?
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,104,086.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Truth is all that should matter here, not our own interpretations or what we would want to be true based on our either liking it, or elses not liking it, etc.

God Bless.
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,104,086.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
That's because your analogies simply aren't true of a God like this.

For some reason evil temporarily was necessary, etc, and this God knew that from the very beginning or from before He ever even made anything, etc. I have my theories about those reasons, but will talk about that more later, or at another time, etc.

So it had to be made with evil in it or a part of it, etc, and so, that's the way He made it, etc. But He never steps in somewhere in-between and makes or causes evil to happen, etc. But He did see all the evil that would happen in it before He ever even made it, and made it that way anyway, etc. But this was at or from the beginning, and He does not step in somewhere in the middle or somewhere in-between and cause evil to happen, etc. But He just made it with evil in it, and saw every single thing (evil) that would all happen in all of it long before He ever even made it, and then set it in motion or made it all to happen that way anyway, etc.

And I'll tell you about what I think might be His reasons for doing this or making it this way or the "why" of this at another time, ok.

It was not just all simply for His "amusement", but is for a goal and purpose and aim much, much higher and greater, and ultimately much, much better than that, etc.

God Bless.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,856
8,382
Dallas
✟1,091,033.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So when Jesus asked “why are you persecuting Me” Paul’s reply should’ve been “because you’re the One controlling me”?

Obviously the vision was not for everyone.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,856
8,382
Dallas
✟1,091,033.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Truth is all that should matter here, not our own interpretations or what we would want to be true based on our either liking it, or elses not liking it, etc.

God Bless.
We can go to the scriptures if you want.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why are these people refusing to repent if God’s kindness is leading them to repentance?

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭20‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why did Jesus give Jezebel time to repent?

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Is Jesus trying to save these people?

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why is the outcome of whether or not the tree will bear fruit still uncertain despite Jesus’ efforts to give special attention to the tree to save it?
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,104,086.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
All those who do not or may not know everything completely has to try and give everyone else the benefit of the doubt that they can be saved still, etc. But it is only due to not knowing absolutely everything completely, etc.

Jesus didn't/doesn't know if those people can be absolutely saved or not completely, which is why he still tries to save them still, etc.

I know that may come as a shock to some, but it is scriptural that there is/are some things Jesus didn't know, or doesn't know 100% completely, etc.
 
Upvote 0

HarleyER

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2024
903
341
74
Toano
✟51,915.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Hi Rose_Bud

Notice carefully what Paul states:

Gal 1:15 But when He who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,​
On the one hand, I can understand your interpretation of thinking that Paul had been set apart to be of the Jewish nation. But Paul goes on to say that God, through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son. And the reason God was pleased to do so is so that Paul would preach His gospel to the Gentile. God didn't reveal Himself to anyone else on the Damacus Road that we're aware of. Only to Paul. In Galatians we see that God had a specific purpose for Paul and directly saved him for this purpose. This then goes back to the first part "But when He...", that God had set Paul apart for this specific task.

So just when did God set Paul apart to reveal His Son to him? It was before the foundation of the world when it was determined that Christ would die for our sins.

1 Peter 1:20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you​

David says exactly the same thing in Psalm 22 about his salvation:

9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;​
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.​
10 I was cast upon You from birth;​
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.

God was David's God before he was even born.

We are saved by the grace of God, and this is not of yourself. Notice what John states:

John1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born,​

1) not of blood,​
2) nor of the will of the flesh,​
3) nor of the will of a man, (man's free choice)​

but of God.​

It's just the way it is. That is why when you witness to one person you get nothing but a cold shoulder. When you witness to someone else, the light bulb comes on and they are brought to repentence. It is simply the way the Spirit moves. Why God works like this I don't know. It is part of His mysterious will.

Just one more note. Some people think this is view of God is TOTALLY unfair of God. Everyone should have a choice. Well, not everyone does. People on islands, in distant lands, and even your next door neighbor might never heard the gospel or simply don't care to hear the gospel.

The real truth of the matter is that none of us deserves to be saved. We are all sinners and deserve Hell. That God saves a remnant shows to us that 1) God is merciful, and 2) God is gracious. We should thank and praise God that we have been rescued out of the bondage of sin. We shouldn't be questioning, "Why not Mary or Joe?"
 
Upvote 0

HarleyER

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2024
903
341
74
Toano
✟51,915.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
So when Jesus asked “why are you persecuting Me” Paul’s reply should’ve been “because you’re the One controlling me”?

Obviously the vision was not for everyone.
This comes up all to frequently; "I'm not God's robot?" in the free will debate.

Fact of the matter is that I wish that I could be God's robot. I wish that the Holy Spirit would seize my mind and heart, and everything that I did was according to God's will. Then I would be walking as Christ walked. Sadly, this is not how it works. God works His Will through our imperfections.

Jonah wanted to go to Tarish. God want Jonah in Nineveh. Guess who won? Jonah, in his rebellion, brought the sailors on the ship to repentence as well as the city of Nineveh.

As far as the "vision" not being for everyone, doesn't it seem a bit odd that God would not want those people to make the same choice as Paul? This isn't how salvation works. The Spirit moves here and there. Why we don't know but it isn't because God liked Paul better then the rest in his group. God shows no partiality. We are all sinners deserving of Hell. God just signal out Paul for a specific purpose just like He did Samson according to His Will.
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
31,069
10,067
NW England
✟1,302,335.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And you know this, how?
I've read it.
He is concerned about the Jews.
The recipients of the letter were the people of the church at Rome (1:7), who were predominantly Gentiles, while Jews did make up a substantial minority of the congregation (4:1, chps 9-11).

The Jews in the Gentile church of Rome were Christians.
They were Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah; they didn't stop being Jewish when they believed - and still don't.
They seemed to be asking how Jews who didn't believe fitted into God's plan - were they still his people because of Abraham? Had God chosen somebody else?

Paul wrote the letter to present the whole system of salvation to a church that had not received the teaching of an apostle before,
Paul wrote a letter to the church at Rome before he had visited them.
There is nothing to say that no Apostle had yet been to Rome - you've just said that they were Christians, so they had heard the Gospel from someone.
Read that misrepresentation again. . .misrepresentation is not a "good look."
With respect then, I'd say please will you stop misrepresenting our God of love and mercy by claiming that he makes people sin - or plans that they will - so that he can show everyone his glory by rescuing them.
I want you to ask God to show you his understanding of it.
So if I come back here in a few days and say "I've asked God and he said ...." and then repeat what |I've just written, you'll believe me?
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,856
8,382
Dallas
✟1,091,033.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I really don’t know a whole lot about Augustine’s work because I didn’t study it very much. The reason being is that he retracted a lot of his own work and it’s really hard to find that piece of literature. Furthermore I would suggest looking to the earliest writings of the church to find evidence of how the scriptures were intended to be interpreted, not fourth century writings.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,856
8,382
Dallas
✟1,091,033.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
This is nonsense
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,490
7,599
North Carolina
✟349,068.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I've read it.

He is concerned about the Jews.
He is stating his love and grief for the Jews before he goes into God's condemnation and cutting off of them because of their rejection of Christ (Ro 11:16-23), just as Christ wept over Jerusalem because of its coming destruction due to the same unbelief in him.
Is there any historical or Biblical evidence that an apostle had been to Rome?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,104,086.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
God the Heavenly Father is the only One who always knew all from the very beginning 100% completely. And God in the OT and Jesus didn't always know absolutely everything 100% completely, etc.

They knew fully knew about all this determinism or predeterminism/predestination/predetermining from or by the Father 100% completely, and knew that even They were a part of that 100% completely, and those Two knew "nearly everything", or a lot about most things, etc, but there was also some restrictions that God the Heavenly Father was putting on them both on what They could know about absolutely everything 100% completely.

Like knowing the exact times and seasons of everything, and of who all could be saved completely. These things were not in their complete knowing or ability to know always for 100% sure completely, etc. And this was so They could still be who They are 100% completely, etc, and so that They would still do what They needed to do, and would still try to save all 100% completely, etc.

If They would have had full knowledge of all, then They would not be able to be who They are, or would not do what They needed to do, or would always try to do, 100% completely, etc.

God Bless.
 
Upvote 0

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Site Supporter
May 10, 2011
11,529
4,030
Twin Cities
✟867,533.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

This verse indicates that we come to repentance, we are not forced into repentance

John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

This verse directly says that we can choose to do the will of God. So I don't know which Bible you are reading but the one that I read says we have free will. The concept of predestination didn't come along until a lawyer dreamed it up 1500 years after Christ walked the Earth. I think it's better to believe what the followers of the living Christ said rather than a French lawyer.

From the Old Testament Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.

This verse directly says that we have the choice to serve God or not. Are you sure that you are getting your information from the Holy Bible?

But wait, there's more.....

Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

There are a large number of Bible verses that confirm our gift of free will. Turn away from false teaching and embrace the truth.
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,104,086.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Because there were some things God in the OT and Jesus didn't know, like who or how many specifically could be saved.

Matthew 19:25–26 (NKJV): "When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved? But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Matthew 24:36 (NKJV): “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, (nor the Son) but My Father only."

Acts 1:7 (NKJV): "And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority."

John 14:28 (NKJV): "You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I (am)."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0