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The theological determinist is too far out over his intellectual skies. He is a member of the orchestra who has confused himself with the conductor.There is no free will in a world that is already predestined.
Newtonians who are more than a century out of date. Mechanistic science died when quantum mechanics was born.Even some Physicists agree in the Universe of Destiny
Feelings are thoughts. If thoughts are predestined then so are feelings which means that people are only executing what they are programmed to do by God. If He dictates everything thru predestination then we’re exactly like a computer executing its program being incapable of deviating from what God has predestined us to do. That’s the problem with your interpretation of predestination. With my interpretation God isn’t controlling people so love and disobedience are the result of our choice making us responsible for our actions and at the same time giving value to our affection towards God.Love, and especially the feeling of love, as powerful and profound and special as it is, or whatever, is still part of what we were predestined to come to know/feel/learn, etc.
If a computer had the ability to feel, it could very easily do or show or exhibit the same, etc.
God Bless.
Well if you have/are asked to choose between two things, you will need experience of those things in order to make an informed choice.This is a great post! I would agree 100% that free will does not exist within the world. When our mind is attached to the world of choices, it should rather be called "imprisoned will" for it then that all our seeming "choices" are dictated by the past.
Even Christians can choose; choose God's way, or their way, choose obedience or disobedience, choose to trust God and pray or give into fear/anger/worry and complain.They certainly SEEM like real choices, but that's the trick of the deceiver in our mind: making us think that we can be happy by have more choices in the world, when in truth we can only be happy by aligning our mind with Christ's and saying to God "not mine, but Thy Will be done."
No one forces us - we live in free countries, in democracies, have freedom of speech and freedom to practice religion.The problem is that we define free will as choice.
That's just it; God hasn't programmed us to do anything.So to summarize, there's Free Will and there's "imprisoned will". Imprisoned will is what we're experiencing when think we can make "free" choices in this world, but which are really just based on past programming
I had the freedom to get married - or not.which, as Panther said in the post, is all predetermined. No freedom there at all.
A person is free to make a choice/decision, or coerced into doing so; what other sort is there?Free will actually has nothing to do with choice.
Well if you have/are asked to choose between two things, you will need experience of those things in order to make an informed choice.
That's why it doesn't make sense for people to say, "I won't get my child baptised; I'll let them choose for themselves." How does someone know whether to choose Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism etc. or no faith at all, if they have no experience of those religions?
Even Christians can choose; choose God's way, or their way, choose obedience or disobedience, choose to trust God and pray or give into fear/anger/worry and complain.
We have to choose to say "thy will be done", especially when presented with an attractive alternative, or tempted to go our own way.
No one forces us - we live in free countries, in democracies, have freedom of speech and freedom to practice religion.
We are allowed to criticise the government and vote, or not. We are allowed to protest. If we don't like what our church teaches, we are allowed to go elsewhere. God doesn't even force us to obey him.
Not forced to do a particular thing = freedom to choose, reject, obey, follow etc.
And you know this, how?That's just it; God hasn't programmed us to do anything.
If he had, he would have made us so that we were incapable of disobeying him.
There is the sort that are slaves to sin (Jn 8:44); i.e., all mankind. . .slaves are not free.I had the freedom to get married - or not.
I had no past experience of it and was not programmed in any way. I had no past experience before I chose teacher training college, nursing or working among the homeless. These choices were not "dictated by the past".
A person is free to make a choice/decision, or coerced into doing so; what other sort is there?
Seems like common sense to me.And you know this, how?
Or more like, it was part of God's plan to show forth the glory of his goodness through the glory of his Son.Seems like common sense to me.
Unless you're saying that God wanted his perfect creation to disobey him so that he could one day send his Son to be killed.
Are you sure about that?Only a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] would make something and then be pleased when it was destroyed.
Predestination and foreknowledge are linked together. Foreknowledge is making a plan. Predestination is implementing the plan. (To put it simply.) Here it is in reverse order from Romans.
Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
God's foreknowledge and predetermined (predestined) the death of His Son before anything took place.
So, then it's your belief that Genesis 6:6-7 was predestined that the LORD would have a heart of deep regret. Suggesting He was disappointed having higher hopes for man(kind).There is no free will in a world that is already predestined.
(As vindicated by countless fulfillments and prophecies)
But it is God the Father making his appeal through us. I know you do not care about the analogy of puppets, but that is precisely what you are proposing. God, for whatever reason, decided to amuse himself with a scripted play that included children being raped and humans torturing, brutalizing, and killing one another. God, the creator of evil? I think not. I think this is a perverse distortion of God, just another of the devil's lies about Him.Because God the Spirit, and Jesus Christ, are/were all locked into all this determinism/predestination by the Heavenly Father God as well, and didn't always have 100% knowledge about how it was all always going to happen, or was always going to go as well.
So we sometimes see Them appealing to humanity to choose what is right and best for them sometimes, etc.
If They always fully knew everything, it would not be necessary, etc. But because we do see it happening sometimes, it means They "didn't know", or didn't always know everything, etc.
Look, we can split word hairs until the cows come home. You seem to want to drum up "foreknowledge" as God predicting something. This isn't the way foreknowledge is used in the scriptures any more than the "hope that is within us" means "Boy, I really do hope that I'm right."“this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.”
Acts 2:23 NASB1995
Foreknowledge is not making a plan. You need to check the definition of the word prognosis. Prognosis is predicting a situation before it happens. It is used in order to determine the best course of action.
God's glory can be seen in creation.Or more like, it was part of God's plan to show forth the glory of his goodness through the glory of his Son.
I'm sure about God.Are you sure about that?
But he is love.His ways are not our ways, rather his ways are higher than our ways (Isa 55:8-9).
When Adam sinned, sickness and death also came into the world.Likewise, his creation was not "destroyed," it remained in existence for him to redeem, for the love of those born of him (Jn 1:12-13) and to the glory of his Son. . .the rejectors of God's beloved Son being to the glory of God's justice.
I feel I should apologize for my rather sippy post to you.“this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.”
Acts 2:23 NASB1995
Foreknowledge is not making a plan. You need to check the definition of the word prognosis. Prognosis is predicting a situation before it happens. It is used in order to determine the best course of action.
Paul absolutely had a choice, Jesus revealed Himself to Paul and Paul finally realized who Jesus is. Now think about what you’re saying here because if there is no free will then it was God controlling Paul when he was persecuting and murdering Christians then Jesus had to appear before him in order to reveal the truth about who Christ is so that Paul would repent. If there is no free will then why would Jesus have needed to appear before Paul in the first place if it was God who has been controlling him the whole time? I’m actually glad you brought the road to Damascus up because it gives a perfect example of free will. Jesus appeared before Paul in order to make him repent and believe. If free will isn’t true then Jesus would’ve never had to do that in order to persuade Paul.Look, we can split word hairs until the cows come home. You seem to want to drum up "foreknowledge" as God predicting something. This isn't the way foreknowledge is used in the scriptures any more than the "hope that is within us" means "Boy, I really do hope that I'm right."
But I'm curious. How do you define "predetermine plan"?
And if you are so insistent that man has a "choice" in the matter, I sure would like to hear your explanation of the Apostle Paul's Damacus trip. That certainly didn't go the way of his "choice".
Every single testimony that I've ever heard was, "I was going my own way, BUT GOD..." I suspect that would be your testimony as well.
Total depravity is a false doctrine and was refuted 1300 years before Calvin was even born in 170AD by Iranaeus in his refutation of Gnosticism.I feel I should apologize for my rather sippy post to you.
Predestination and God's foreknowledge (omniscience) are probably the most difficult doctrines to understand. Charles Wesley never could accept it even though he penned these words in that great hymn "And Can It Be".
- Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quick’ning ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
This is what salvation is all about. We are dead, imprisoned, in sin until God shines His light to us. But God must shine the light.
Does it not glorify God when we love Him? (Sorry I didn't acknowledge your reply before, but although I am following this thread, I didn't get the usual notification.)I would’ve expected that our love for God would’ve been included into the equation.
I appreciate your apology but I wasn’t offended by any of your posts my friend.I feel I should apologize for my rather sippy post to you.
Predestination and God's foreknowledge (omniscience) are probably the most difficult doctrines to understand. Charles Wesley never could accept it even though he penned these words in that great hymn "And Can It Be".
- Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quick’ning ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
This is what salvation is all about. We are dead, imprisoned, in sin until God shines His light to us. But God must shine the light.
I dunno maybe I just misunderstood the correlation. I don’t believe we were created for the specific purpose of glorifying God. I believe we were created to have a relationship with Him. The point I was trying to make is that without free will we cannot have a relationship with God.Does it not glorify God when we love Him? (Sorry I didn't acknowledge your reply before, but although I am following this thread, I didn't get the usual notification.)
Paul did not think so...Paul absolutely had a choice, Jesus revealed Himself to Paul and Paul finally realized who Jesus is. Now think about what you’re saying here because if there is no free will then it was God controlling Paul when he was persecuting and murdering Christians then Jesus had to appear before him in order to reveal the truth about who Christ is so that Paul would repent. If there is no free will then why would Jesus have needed to appear before Paul in the first place if it was God who has been controlling him the whole time? I’m actually glad you brought the road to Damascus up because it gives a perfect example of free will. Jesus appeared before Paul in order to make him repent and believe. If free will isn’t true then Jesus would’ve never had to do that in order to persuade Paul.
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