There are Two Creation Stories in Genesis

[Dale]

And what scripture do you use to backup this position?

If it is indeed you saying that. If this came from another member can you please state who you are quoting?

Did you read the OP? Or maybe you read it a while back and you’ve forgotten it. To summarize, in the first creation account, God creates some number of men and women in His own image. In the second creation account, He creates Adam and later creates Eve. It is in the second creation account that God makes Adam from dust and breathes in the “breath of life.” In the first creation account, God creates plants, then animals, then people. In the second creation account. God creates Adam, then plants and animals, and then, almost as an afterthought, He creates Eve from Adam.



Both of these accounts cannot be literally true but they can both have spiritual meaning.

Since they can’t both be literally true, it follows that they are parables.

 

[Philip_B]

Since they can’t both be literally true, it follows that they are parables.

or perhaps symbol stories, that may well serve as vehicles of truth, even though they mat be specifically history as we understand it.

 

[GenemZ]

Did you read the OP? Or maybe you read it a while back and you’ve forgotten it. To summarize, in the first creation account, God creates some number of men and women in His own image. In the second creation account, He creates Adam and later creates Eve. It is in the second creation account that God makes Adam from dust and breathes in the “breath of life.” In the first creation account, God creates plants, then animals, then people. In the second creation account. God creates Adam, then plants and animals, and then, almost as an afterthought, He creates Eve from Adam.



Both of these accounts cannot be literally true but they can both have spiritual meaning.

Since they can’t both be literally true, it follows that they are parables.

You are assuming the same kind of creating took place in both chapters. One was an act of creating (Chapter One) The Second Chapter was not an act of creating. Matter of fact, Chapter Two begins by telling us that at that point God rested from any more creating.


Also.. Why go through the trouble in describing the "molding and forming (not creating) of a lifeless body," in the second chapter? A body that had no life? And not mention the same thing in Chapter One?

Man's souls - male and female - were what was created [bara] out from nothing in Genesis 1:27. God can see the soul. And, it says..."And, God saw."

In Genesis 2 we see it start with?

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating [bara] that he had done. Genesis 2:1-3

No more "bara" from God. No more creating [bara] something out from nothing!

No man was created in Genesis 2!

Only a body was provided (molded and formed) from the elements of the earth, so that the soul that was created in Genesis 1:27 would have a home in this created material world.

If not shown the facts that I presented from the Hebrew? We can understand why the speculation. But, once shown? And, refuses correction?

.... I will let the Word of God tell us what that person is...


Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid." Psalm 12:1


enuf already.

 

[coffee4u]

Did you read the OP? Or maybe you read it a while back and you’ve forgotten it. To summarize, in the first creation account, God creates some number of men and women in His own image. In the second creation account, He creates Adam and later creates Eve. It is in the second creation account that God makes Adam from dust and breathes in the “breath of life.” In the first creation account, God creates plants, then animals, then people. In the second creation account. God creates Adam, then plants and animals, and then, almost as an afterthought, He creates Eve from Adam.



Both of these accounts cannot be literally true but they can both have spiritual meaning.

Since they can’t both be literally true, it follows that they are parables.

I'm sure I did read the OP back when this thread was started but I was making sure of your position because for some reason I was thinking you were one of the flat earth believers here-I tend to get people mixed up. Unless you are but I didn't think they generally go together. Maybe the other guys name is Dave.

Of course I completely disagree with your belief in two creations.
I firmly believe that there was one creation and that it was literal, as written.

 

[Dale]

Dave, this is your point of view and you are welcome to it. But other people like myself who have also studied on this for many years 100% believe there to be one creation and believe that you are sincerely mistaken. Can you learn to respect us or will you continue with the disrespect?

"deliberate to thwart those of the future who are filled with knowledge."
Indicates that we not only have no knowledge but are preventing others finding it.
Would you like us to turn around and say the same thing back to you?

Romans 12:10
Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honour.

"More people have left Christianity because of creationism"
That isn't the fault of creationism, it's due to the overwhelming lie of evolution. People these days don't want faith, they want proof of everything. We also know that is the way things are destined to go.
Luke 18:8
Nevertheless when the Son of man comes, shall he find faith on the earth?

Coffee,

I am not the one who said “deliberate to thwart those of the future …”

That was Sheila Davis in post #240. I only quoted that in a reply.

 

[Dale]

That is what I said. Genesis 5 is the genealogy.

I am. Genesis 5 is one while Genesis 4 is the other.

Take a look at this passage.

As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in
Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach
false doctrines any longer
nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies.
These promote controversies rather than God’s work —
which is by faith.
I Timothy 1:3-4 NIV


Here Paul warns against “endless genealogies,” which he associates with “myths” and “false doctrines.” Paul sees little value in dwelling on the genealogies in the OT but says that they
can all too easily be a source of confusion.

 

[Philip_B]

endless genealogies

I quite like the begatitudes. They remind us of the authenticity with which the stories were received. God's presence with his people is continuing, from one generation to another, it is not the story of an alien presence.

 

[(David)DD]

In the first creation story, Genesis 1, plants are created on the third day.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
Genesis 1:11-13 NIV

Still in the first creation story, God creates fish, sea creatures and birds on the fifth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
Genesis 1: 20-23 NIV

Then God creates land animals and an undetermined number of people on the sixth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.”
And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
Genesis 1: 24-28 NIV

The second creation account starts in Genesis 2:4.

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
Genesis 2:4 NIV

We are specifically told that there is "no shrub" and "no plant" when Adam, the first man, is created.

5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Genesis 2:5-7 NIV

The second creation story gives the impression that plants are made to make Adam comfortable. The tenses here are confusing and I'll say more about that later.

8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2:8-9 NIV

In the first creation story, birds (and fish) are created before land animals while in the second creation story, land animals and birds are created at the same time. In the first story, plants and animals are created before people while in the second, Adam is created before plants and animals. Again, the creation of animals is related to Adam's comfort, since the text distinguishes between "livestock" and "wild animals." The creation of land animals and birds is closely connected with their presentation to Adam.

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.
Genesis 2:19-20 NIV

God announces the intention to create Eve, to create the first woman, in verse 18. He does not actually do so until verses 21-23, after the creation and presentation of birds, livestock and wild animals.

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
...
21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
Genesis 2:18-25 NIV


In summary, in the first creation story, God creates plants, then animals, then people. In the second creation story, God first creates the man, Adam, then plants, then animals, and then the woman, Eve. Each of these stories has its purpose but as literal story they can't be reconciled.

In the first creation story, Genesis 1, plants are created on the third day.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
Genesis 1:11-13 NIV

Still in the first creation story, God creates fish, sea creatures and birds on the fifth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
Genesis 1: 20-23 NIV

Then God creates land animals and an undetermined number of people on the sixth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.”
And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
Genesis 1: 24-28 NIV

The second creation account starts in Genesis 2:4.

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
Genesis 2:4 NIV

We are specifically told that there is "no shrub" and "no plant" when Adam, the first man, is created.

5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Genesis 2:5-7 NIV

The second creation story gives the impression that plants are made to make Adam comfortable. The tenses here are confusing and I'll say more about that later.

8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2:8-9 NIV

In the first creation story, birds (and fish) are created before land animals while in the second creation story, land animals and birds are created at the same time. In the first story, plants and animals are created before people while in the second, Adam is created before plants and animals. Again, the creation of animals is related to Adam's comfort, since the text distinguishes between "livestock" and "wild animals." The creation of land animals and birds is closely connected with their presentation to Adam.

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.
Genesis 2:19-20 NIV

God announces the intention to create Eve, to create the first woman, in verse 18. He does not actually do so until verses 21-23, after the creation and presentation of birds, livestock and wild animals.

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
...
21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
Genesis 2:18-25 NIV


In summary, in the first creation story, God creates plants, then animals, then people. In the second creation story, God first creates the man, Adam, then plants, then animals, and then the woman, Eve. Each of these stories has its purpose but as literal story they can't be reconciled.

Only one Creation but its written in the two chapters of the Genesis 1 and 2. Maybe helpful thing to know more. If we try to look carefully the passage of the sixth day event and note the timing and the places written in the sixth day.

 

[JulieB67]

Only one Creation but its written in the two chapters of the Genesis 1 and 2.

Yes, but there were no chapters in the manuscripts. So what you're saying is the creation story was written and then rewritten but completely different.

 

[(David)DD]

Yes, but there were no chapters in the manuscripts. So what you're saying is the creation story was written and then rewritten but completely different.

In the translated, Holy Bible.

Genesis 1 King James Version
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Genesis 2 King James Version
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

 

[coffee4u]

In the translated, Holy Bible.

Genesis 1 King James Version
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Genesis 2 King James Version
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

And then it focuses in on the garden. Nothing odd about that.

The Gospels also often repeat the same events and each look slightly different.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Only one Creation but its written in the two chapters of the Genesis 1 and 2. Maybe helpful thing to know more. If we try to look carefully the passage of the sixth day event and note the timing and the places written in the sixth day.

The Bible has the same history written from different viewpoints: Two examples are 1 and 2 Kings compared with 1 and 2 Chronicles (Kings written during the exile; Chronicles, after the return) and the four gospels. Moses does the same thing in Genesis by describing the Creator's relationship with his creation and the personal relationships he has with the "crown" of his creation, humans.

 

[GenemZ]

Its the first Chapter of Genesis where we see the Hebrew word - 'bara.'

Bara means to 'create.' It means to "create something out from nothing." That kind of creating can only spoken of God in that context.

Now... Chapter two begins with a summation of what took place in Chapter One. It begins by tellingl us that God rested and ceased from anymore creating - 'bara.'

Genesis 2:1-3

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so
on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the
seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the
work of creating [bara] that he had done."​

That says? No more creating from God before the Genesis Two account is given!

There were no two creation accounts.

First Chapter is about God creating [bara]. Second chapter is about the Lord utilizing what had already been created to make something out from it.

The body of Adam was not created - 'bara.' Instead, it was like what an artist does when making statue out from clay. In this case, the Lord breathed Adam's soul into this lump of clay which gave it animation.

Adam was not created 'bara' in Chapter Two.

Its was in Chapter One where we read that God created both "male and female" in His image. God is invisible. It was the male and female souls that God created 'out from nothing' in His Image!

Now... those souls created in Genesis 1:27 needed a body.

Guess what happened in Chapter Two? God did not create anything out from nothing like we see in Genesis One. For God rested from 'bara' on the seventh day.

Instead, the Lord took out from the earth what was needed and "molded and formed' (jatsar) a body for Adam.

Molded with what He extracted out from "the elements" of the earth. The same soil that had been created 'bara' out from nothing in Chapter One!

Without knowing what the Hebrew says? Interpretation becomes open season for creative writing class. Becoming a proverbial subjective food fight amongst God's children.

We need to know God's Word as it was written. Not only a translation that can too often leave us scratching our heads, yet making some sure of ourselves if they have a tendency to be naturally stubborn, argumentative, and opinionated by nature.

Bara = to create something out from nothing. To bring something into existence. (Gen 1)

Jatsar = to mold and form something out from something that has already been created! (Gen 2)

grace and peace!

grace and peace.......

 

[Philip_B]

Its the first Chapter of Genesis where we see the Hebrew word - 'bara.'

Bara means to 'create.' It means to "create something out from nothing." That kind of creating can only spoken of God in that context.

Now... Chapter two begins with a summation of what took place in Chapter One. It begins by tellingl us that God rested and ceased from anymore creating - 'bara.'

Genesis 2:1-3

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so
on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the
seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the
work of creating [bara] that he had done."​

That says? No more creating from God before the Genesis Two account is given!

There were no two creation accounts.

First Chapter is about God creating [bara]. Second chapter is about the Lord utilizing what had already been created to make something out from it.

The body of Adam was not created - 'bara.' Instead, it was like what an artist does when making statue out from clay. In this case, the Lord breathed Adam's soul into this lump of clay which gave it animation.

Adam was not created 'bara' in Chapter Two.

Its was in Chapter One where we read that God created both "male and female" in His image. God is invisible. It was the male and female souls that God created 'out from nothing' in His Image!

Now... those souls created in Genesis 1:27 needed a body.

Guess what happened in Chapter Two? God did not create anything out from nothing like we see in Genesis One. For God rested from 'bara' on the seventh day.

Instead, the Lord took out from the earth what was needed and "molded and formed' (jatsar) a body for Adam.

Molded with what He extracted out from "the elements" of the earth. The same soil that had been created 'bara' out from nothing in Chapter One!

Without knowing what the Hebrew says? Interpretation becomes open season for creative writing class. Becoming a proverbial subjective food fight amongst God's children.

We need to know God's Word as it was written. Not only a translation that can too often leave us scratching our heads, yet making some sure of ourselves if they have a tendency to be naturally stubborn, argumentative, and opinionated by nature.

Bara = to create something out from nothing. To bring something into existence. (Gen 1)

Jatsar = to mold and form something out from something that has already been created! (Gen 2)

grace and peace!

grace and peace.......

I think this is a contentious exegesis of the text. I think reading invisible souls into Genesis 1 account of creation is a less than natural reading of the text.

 

[ewq1938]

Now... those souls created in Genesis 1:27 needed a body.

They were created with bodies which is why they are male and female and could start having children and on that same day.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Bodiless souls cannot reproduce, eat food and have dominion over the animals and fish. These clearly are fully human people.

 

[GenemZ]

I think this is a contentious exegesis of the text. I think reading invisible souls into Genesis 1 account of creation is a less than natural reading of the text.

Thank you....

Its so wonderful to have someone as informative and knowledgeable as you are amongst us.

grace and peace

 

[GenemZ]

They were created with bodies which is why they are male and female and could start having children and on that same day.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Bodiless souls cannot reproduce, eat food and have dominion over the animals and fish. These clearly are fully human people.

God was reading the blueprint and declaring what man was designed to do. Of course they were to go forth and multiply. God was declaring His design purpose. Don't forget He was speaking to angels who were watching and listening while the creating was going on.

Adam and the woman did not start having children right away. You say they did. Please show us where it reveals that in Scripture.

 

[ewq1938]

God was reading the blueprint and declaring what man was designed to do. Of course they were to go forth and multiply. God was declaring His design purpose. Don't forget He was speaking to angels who were watching and listening while the creating was going on.

Adam and the woman did not start having children right away. You say they did. Please show us where it reveals that in Scripture.

I said they could begin doing that because the text says that.

 

[GenemZ]

I said they could begin doing that because the text says that.

What the Scriptures teach is that no children were born until after Adam named all the animals (alone - with no female)... Yet, in Genesis One, both male and female souls were created at the same time.

Adam and Eve had no children until after the fall. They did not have children right away before they fell.

You need to work it out.

 

[ewq1938]

What the Scriptures teach is that no children were born until after Adam named all the animals (alone - with no female)... Yet, in Genesis One, both male and female souls were created at the same time.

The text doesn't say "souls". They were male and female humans...that means they had bodies and God told them to multiply and that is through childbirth.