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Theory on the origin of evil

Oct 21, 2003
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At least you're honest.
So the bible lies when it says that God is all-good?
God IS LOVE. 1 John 4:8

So how does a loving God create evil?
What do you mean "without being guilty"?

The way I view it is, God created all the Angels, including Lucifer, and similar to the creation of man, endowed them with a will, not an autonomous will, but neither a morally perfect will, perfect as in immutable. So there was a freedom to turn, and for reason unknown, Lucifer the Prince of Angels turned and plotted against his Creator, a coo, and a third of the Angels followed him, and as a result were cast out of Heaven. I know this is a simple understanding, but I am content to leave it here. I think most (excluding the will discussion) of this is confirmed from prophecies in the book of Isaiah. The most difficult part which I do not understand is why, why did God knowingly create Lucifer and the Angels who would rebel? Did they really have a "chance" to do otherwise? If they did, they could have proved the knowledge of God to be false, and I'll let you follow the rabbit down that hole.
 
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Cis.jd

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Don't feel so badly....
This is the unanswerable question.
If God is all-good and omnipotent, why does evil exist?
I think man is actually more evil than the devil.. or has shown to be. When we start looking back in history, whether world history or just something as small as domestic history.. we've beaten Satan on it.
 
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Kenny'sID

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For example: Jesus says anyone who looks upon a woman in order to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart. So for example to say - Oh I can look at porn and fantasize all I want, so long as I don't commit the act. That's sin because the attitude is amiss from the get go.

That would be the exception I mentioned, and there are very few if any other sins that work that way. Whether we do the act or only fantasize, one is deriving pleasure from it so that is sin, but again, that is one type sin that works that way out of a billion that do not. meaning the rule would be, not a sin until it's, well...sin. Or we don't sin until we've sinned. it is what it is when it becomes what it is, but not before.

So, evil's origin is when evil is evident, but the main point should be, it originates from us.
 
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eleos1954

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(Actually Part I) - They are kinda posted "backwards".

Explanation of Creation / good and evil in this world


Genesis:

In His first task God set the format for the universe. He decided the structure of the matter the planets would be made up of and set the frame work of the "space" they would take up. (Sort of like formatting a hard drive for a computer - nothing is on the hard drive but the spaces are set up for what information will go where.)

We are discovering in science that all matter has a basic structure in which it's framed upon. In outer space there is "stuff" in the "space". We can't measure it, but it keeps the objects in the universe where they "are suppose to be". This is God's format. With in God's format came the basic elemental structures that would come to make up planets and suns. This could be the protons, neutrons and electrons that would eventually make up elements such as hydrogen, oxygen etc.

Before God came along and decided to put His creation in this "spot", what was already here was a perpetually destructive evil existence. The "personification" or the spirit of that evil is what the Scripture calls Satan. Where that evil came from - I would like to know myself! Is Satan a fallen angel? I know churches teach that; I haven't found enough in Scriptures to be convinced that is actually true though. Reason would have it that if this evil predated the creation it's-self than the origins of evil could not be of some fallen angel God had made. Since nothing God would create was even in existence yet. Any ways; God was greater than that evil though, so He was able to put in that evil's existence a creation that the perpetually destructive evil could not pollute. That is until Adam sinned.

In science fiction writing, we see the concept of "anti-matter". Whether or not there is an actual scientific theory behind it - I don't know. "Anti-matter" though is the perpetually destructive counter force to the matter of the material world. In physics we have "the law of entropy" Entropy is things going from a state of order to a state of chaos. This decay is the work of this perpetually destructive evil existence that God superseded with His creative work. This evil got it's foot hold in God's creation when Adam transgressed. The destruction this evil brings upon the creation ultimately manifests as death.

In the Hebrew the words "heaven" and "earth" are definite articles. This means they are speaking of a certain heavens and a certain earth. Even though these words are not plural, we know God created more than one set of solar systems. The universe is filled with galaxies, composed of solar systems, which are composed of stars, planets, moons etc. The nature of the definitive article of the Hebrew here could be just referring to our planet and our solar system.

This universe that God created is immense! There is a reference in one of the epistles to "the worlds" (plural) God has created and the "world" (singular) He has redeemed. It is of my opinion that there is probability life on other planets. If the world God has redeemed is singular (meaning our world), reason would have it that what ever life may be elsewhere either is not prone to sin or does not hold the capacity to be redeemed.

We do know there are entities that God created that are aware of Him (angels, beasts) that are not created in His image, yet appear to have been affected by the fall. Apparently, the entire universe was affected by the fall, for it will all be destroyed and recreated an incorruptible universe. And the perpetually destructive evil existence (and it's spirit - Satan) that God put His creation into will be cast into the lake of fire.

The earth was without form and void. It existed as a desolate wasteland and was vacant. At this point what was here was basically the "skeleton" of the universe. The elements that would come to make up living structures didn't exist yet. This fact made the "big bang" impossible. There were no elements present to create life with.

And darkness was upon the face of the deep. This pervasive evil existence so permeated the "skeleton" of the universe that God had created that it tried to withhold the light of truth. This "light" was the fact that God was stronger than the evil. This evil was agitated and it continuously revolted against God's creative power. The "abyss" of what is mentioned here very well could be the "format" of what God would later designate as hell. The nature of the Hebrew word seems to imply hell.

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. The Spirit of God was dispersed to this dead universe. The byproduct left by the entrance of the Spirit of God into this dead universe was water. Ironically, astronomy has witnessed where meteors and asteroids will impact upon dry planets and actually create lakes. It is believed that this is where planets get their water sources from. It's brought in the form of ice on meteors. This is also believed to be a factor in the flood of Noah. God's "opening up the fountains of the deep" is believed to have left this planet with much more water than it originally had.

Water is the first element in the creation of life. The presence of the Spirit of God profoundly shifted the balance of power in the creation. God "imposed" upon this evil existence His will; not only to create a framework for a universe, but to put life in that universe. Life being the total antithesis to this evil existence. It gives some context to the understanding of why evil is always in revolt. It by nature is destructive because that's all it's capable of doing. The manifestation of it's destruction in this fallen world is sin. Sin is so pervasive because the existence this universe was created into, is by nature perpetually destructive. In the end, God will cut off and punish that destructive evil. It will never again haunt His creation. Amen!

John

The first chapter of John gives us a little more information about what was "here"- "in the beginning". From looking at this account, I can understand where the Jehovah's Witnesses went wrong. They assumed that the first word "God" mentioned in verse one is "God" when in fact it isn't. It's "god". Their second assumption is "the word was a god" is somewhat along the lines of what it actually says in that second verse of John. The problem is that the word wasn't "a god" - the Word was "the God".

(Vs 1) "At the fixed point of where all commenced, continuously existed the Word; and the Word continuously existed superseding god. (the Word superseded the perpetually destructive evil existence that God had created His universe into.)

(Vs 2) And the Word continuously existed as the God. And the (plural masculine) they continuously existed when the fixed point commenced superseding god.

(Vs 3) The whole of the world (created universe) came through the channel of Him (the Word) and apart from Him not a single of any created thing which existed at it's height as a universe, did so without Him.

(Vs 4) At the fixed point (commencement of creation) by Him continuously existed life and that life continuously exists as the manifest luminescence of men. (The goodness of God shown forth in humans created in His image, even in the presence of their fallen state.)

(Vs 5) And that luminescence (the source of life) appears now in this shadow (of darkness) and this shadow (of darkness) seeks not to snatch it up now.

So as we see, God was able to create this world because He superceded the god (evil) that was already here. He could overtake the dominion of evil because He is eternally existent where as evil is not.

The "fixed point" of the commencement of creation; or "the beginning" as it's stated; is probably the point in which evil made it's-self manifest in God's "space". God's solution in dealing with this evil was to create. Creation and life is the total antithesis to death and destruction. Evil certainly existed before the creation was influenced and impacted by it. God's response to this perpetual death and destruction was to create life that would ultimately be eternal. God could have "destroyed" this destruction, but that would just perpetuate the presence of that destruction. He had to overcome it and that's why He created.

Now enters the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God has a creation untainted by this evil. This evil that He has to overcome; for if He does not "deal" with it - it will potentially haunt anything He creates. So hence evil has a venue into His created world through this tree. In this venue is access to those who are the highest of His order of creation; those created in His own image.

Just as God has a will to pick and choose what course of action He'd like to take; He has granted this to His creatures. Note though that it's just not humans who have an independent will, the whole of the animal kingdom does also. Animals have differing degrees of "cognitive functioning" to be able to make choice independent of the actions of other individual animals (or humans) and also independent of the "action of instinct". (Good example is animals (wild and domesticated) that travel hundreds or thousands of miles to find their way "back home" - back to their human or animal families. That type of behavior goes contrary to "common sense instinct".)

So here we have a creation that has a will to carry out the good pleasure / nature of God and their maintaining of this "free will" all hinges upon the decisions made by one man named Adam. When Adam ate this fruit, not only did he open Pandora's box; so to speak in regards to evil it's-self. He "let it in" upon the whole of the rest of creation too. Not only did Adam enslave his own will to the power of this perpetually destructive evil existence; he impacted the wills of the entire animal kingdom. Animals can go contrary to the rightful desires of God, they just can't be held accountable to "sin" in the same sense humans are because the destruction brought upon them was not due to their own choice, since they are not created in God's image.

Jesus

So the creation, by nature of it's non-eternal existence is corruptible. Because it had a beginning; it was corruptible upon it's inception and would continue to be corruptible regardless of how long it took Adam to transgress. If there was no venue of transgression, there would be no hope of living in an eternity that eventually eliminates the possibility of being corrupted. Thus the need for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Without the tree there's no redemption!

So, in enters Jesus; the God-man existing as both eternal and created in one individual. An integral part of the experience of humans as created beings is/are our physical existence. We are not just a body and we are not just a soul; we are both a body and soul together. The soul that makes us alive is that spirit essence that's created in the image of God. Every living thing has a "soul" for without that essence of life - it would not be life.

Every living thing is not only distinctive in it's physical characteristics from other individuals; it's also distinctive in it's "soul" essence. This is why animals have different personalities and different temperaments. Plants too are "sensitive souls" to their environment. Equal factors of adequate soil, water and light are not the only elements that cause plants to thrive. They are also sensitive to sound and other factors. Plants like the company of other plants. Anyone who keeps house plants knows they can "get lonely" and do better in groups.

So, since we know the "soul / spirit / breath of life" comes from God. How does His presence in evil's domain ultimately overcome it? The presence of God's character is obvious in creation; life as opposed to death, love as opposed to hate, good as opposed to evil. Even so, that presence isn't strong enough to overcome the wiles of this destructive evil. It can't do so because of the mortal nature of the creatures' existence. As stated before, creation is corruptible.

God though, being eternally existent, can overcome anything that isn't. So the perfect way to deliver His created order from corruption is to become part of that created order. Jesus though was more than just a human body with an eternal soul. His human soul was very much in the same venue as the first Adam. This is what made Jesus "killable". Likewise though, his body was not just any old body; it was untainted by corruption. The divine (i.e. eternal) aspect of his person-hood maintained his separation from the corruption that befell the first Adam.

Here in lies one very distinct point in the difference between the nature of the Creator as opposed the nature of His creation. God is able to bear the knowledge of good and evil and not be corrupted by it because of all of what constitutes God. This includes the eternal nature of His being, His power, His knowledge, His ability to be everywhere, and the essence of love that composes Him. The components that make up this essence are comprised of justice, goodness, peace, patients, joy. This includes all and any aspect we can think of that's counter to evil. In this is the nature of God!

Evil

Last but not least comes the question of where did evil come from? We know it's not eternally existent. We know it didn't come from God or any of His creation. Ironically, we also know that God understood the potential for destruction that evil possessed before evil existed. That is part of the makeup of being omniscient. Of course the question has come to mind as to whether the thoughts of an all powerful Being could actually create something that wasn't already there. The mere knowledge of God as to the nature evil could and would take - would that in and of it's-self be enough to open the door to the invasion of evil into the realm of God's existence? Not a direction I'm particularly leaning toward. Yet, nor is it an answer I'm satisfied with. It sounds like something out of the world of science fiction though.

It's about love and freewill. God creates all His intelligent beings with freewill. True love requires choice. One can not force another to love another. Without freewill Gods' intelligent creatures would be nothing more that a bunch of robots.

The bible is quite clear ... war broke out in heaven. Therefore freewill in heaven as well.
When God created earth and His creations within ... it was untainted, perfect and without sin. Sin entered the world when satan and his minions were cast down to it. That removed sin out of heaven.

Revelation 12

7Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Revelation 12

12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Adam and Eve had freewill to either believe what God said ... they chose to disobey ... when they did the dominion (kingship of earth) that was originally given to Adam was forfeited to satan. Because of that choice ... they and all of their offspring (mankind) are born with a sinful nature (our natural tendencies being more toward sin). Sin corrupted the earth and everything in/on it.

Romans 8

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

Did God know this was going to happen? Yes, the plan of salvation (redemption through Christ) was already put in place before God created anything on earth ... but again ... that redemption would be by choice.

Titus 1

This truth gives them confidence that they have eternal life, which God—who does not lie—promised them before the world began.

We still have the same choice(s) that Adam and Eve had today.

Believe and serve Jesus/God or not. Accept and follow Jesus and be changed and redeemed (receive eternal life) through Him ... or not.

Joshua 24

15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve ...

Even so ... come Lord Jesus. Amen
 
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Tone

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In the use of the word "evil" as I think you meant it, I substituted "sin" to make a point. No, God did not create sin. Sin is not of itself worth calling a thing, but an unthing at the most. It is, perhaps, a mental construct or category of things, but that still does not qualify it as "thing". Mental constructs or thoughts are things, but what those thoughts are about may not be things.

(There is a verse that says God creates evil, by the way, but that is contextually referring to hard things or difficulty, calamity, etc.)

Don't let words slough from one meaning into another in your reasoning. Not everything our mind can put into words is a creation.


Yeah it's like the "Nothing" of The NeverEnding Story (film) - Wikipedia.

It works (or unworks) against whatever/whoever sustains creation.

It is, perhaps, a mental construct or category of things, but that still does not qualify it as "thing". Mental constructs or thoughts are things, but what those thoughts are about may not be things.

But when spoken, as lies, they do steal, kill, and destroy things.

*Lies steal time, stealing is just stealing, and killing steals life...
 
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The Righterzpen

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I don't have the time or inclination to read the short book that is the O.P. and I seriously doubt that many have done so.

He who answers a matter before he hears it out - it is a folly and a shame unto him. Proverbs 18:13

It seems to me that you are assuming that the creation of the "heavens" include the heaven of spirit beings, as it were. I don't think it is necessary to read that into the passage in Genesis. He doesn't say that He created all of the 3 heavens when He created the earth. He does speak of 2 of the heavens - but not the 3rd, where He supposedly has His throne and where angels live.

Reason would have it that if the heavens and earth are "finished" as is declared in Genesis - this would include the "3rd heaven". At the point the 2nd person of the Trinity was incarnated, that brought the "created thing" into God's personal existence. And so thus from now into all eternity, part of the created is a permeant part of God's being. Thus the need to "create" a 3rd heaven to "accommodate" God Himself.

That's a law of physics and applies to this “physical” universe. I doubt very much that it is a law which touches on the origin of evil which is not a physical concept but a philosophical one. The manifestation of evil was always possible from the 1st that beings were created and given free will.

Part of the omniscience of God, obviously would be knowledge of the laws of physics. Yet until God "creates" something - those laws are theory only (just as evil is theory only until something is created). The presence of "darkness" existed while the earth was still without form and void. Is "darkness" the same thing as "evil" or are they defined by "cause" and "manifestation"? "Evil" is a manifestation of "darkness" enacted upon the physical world once a creature disobeys.

I can't buy into your idea that "physics" (which concern the "physical universe") have any bearing on the non physical origin of evil.

"Physics" in a physical universe become reality as soon as God "does" something. They (like evil) are a byproduct of God's action.

Evil did not predate creation. It apparently predated the creation of this universe. But it did not predate all of creation since that would make evil an attribute of God and we know that cannot be.

Agreed. Yet the creation of this universe was indeed God's "initial go around". There was not another universe that predated this one. (Which I think you would agree with.)

Good - then we are OK on that - if you mean before the creation of the physical universe.

But if you mean before any creation at all - I will disagree with you on that.

We are in agreement here.

The "Word of God" (the Son of the Father) has always from eternity reflected the glory of the His Father including all of His attributes. It has always been the Father's great pleasure to shower all that He is and all that He knows on His Son.

It has always been the great pleasure of the Son to return any glory He receives from the Father to the Father from whence comes all things.

Agreed.

While the Holy Spirit is a bit more mysterious - although He is also a "person" - I believe He is the "by product" of this mutual "love" which encompasses the entire nature of God.

If God is Triune - the Holy Ghost can not be a "by product" because He is eternally existence just as the Father and Son are. If He were a "by product" of "mutual love" than He would be "created" by the "action" of mutual love. Love is an attribute of God's being, not something He does.

The creation was spoken into being to display God and "magnify" (His word) His glory.

Speaking of the Son - the scriptures say that "all things were created by Him, for Him, and in Him all things exist. That includes all things in the spirit world and in this physical universe.

IMO - God wishes to include every aspect of Who He is in this display of Himself.

Agreed.

One of those attributes is His inherent "knowledge of good and evil". That is - not evil itself but the "knowledge" of evil as well as good. Evil - is any rebellion against God's perfect will.

:oldthumbsup: Good "working definition" of evil!

It is my opinion that, through the rebellion of Satan in heaven and mankind on earth, God is displaying "the knowledge of good and evil" in this age (at least in representative form) so that He can show in the ages to come what it is and what comes from rebellion against God's will. I believe He will wrap the “mechanism” for this display up when He moves on to "ages to come" - without having to repeat it again and again on the new earth or in any future worlds, whatever they may consist of.

Agreed. God conquered evil as part of the salvation plan.

IMO - God (being omniscient) knew full well the consequences of creating Satan and the rest of the angels as well as mankind with the ability to make "free will" choices.

Agreed. He would not have been omniscient and consequently, not God if He didn't.

What we see playing out in Heaven and earth - through the actions of the Son, in whom we (and everything else) live and move and have our "being" is exactly what He has done for eternity - namely receive what the Father gives to Him and return it to the Father give glory to the Father.

Theoretically I can see this would be true even outside of the initial action of creating. Yet beyond knowledge bestowed to us as created entities God is unknowable. Therefore we have no idea (and never will) what being omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal and immortal living in glory with two other entities who are of the fullness of what ever God is - would be like.

That knowledge is above our pay grades. LOL

God is sovereign in all that He does and will accomplish all that He sets out to accomplish - or, more precisely, what He sends His Son forth to do.

"My Word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent It." Isaiah 55:11

Agreed.

Now if we don’t like what He is doing - we, as believers, can bow our necks or receive it with humbleness as His servants.

I for one am happy to play a small part in His overall plan – even if I can’t understand it all (or even like it much).

This is particularly so because, in His grace, He has promised to “reward me” for that part I played (as painful as it was in this life) with unspeakable glory in the ages to come and all eternity.

That’s not a bad deal in the end – at least for the Son and for the elect of God, which are His bride and part of His "body".

The deeds believers perform were preordained from the foundations of the world because they are the works of God. Anyone who assigns a portion of this unto his own will for the sake of getting a reward, at the very least misunderstands the power of God's sovereignty. For in the end the crowns (rewards) are cast back at His feet for the understanding that is was by His power these works were accomplished to begin with.

As painful as this life is for any of us; our liking or disliking of the role played, really has no bearing on the plan. The disposition of the believer ultimately accepts that. This is not fatalism though, because the acceptance of the will is born out of love and gratitude for redemption we know we don't deserve.
 
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Tone

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Now I give you Romans 9:22-23 (ESV)

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—"

Can you expound on this verse? I read that, yes, vessels have been prepared for destruction, but it is not clear, by who. I also see vessels of mercy, which are specifically said to be prepared by Him, for glory.
 
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The Righterzpen

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It's about love and freewill. God creates all His intelligent beings with freewill. True love requires choice. One can not force another to love another. Without freewill Gods' intelligent creatures would be nothing more that a bunch of robots.

You misunderstand election, predestination and what Calvin coined as "total depravity", "irresistible grace" and "perseverance of the saints".

The bible is quite clear ... war broke out in heaven. Therefore freewill in heaven as well.
When God created earth and His creations within ... it was untainted, perfect and without sin. Sin entered the world when satan and his minions were cast down to it. That removed sin out of heaven.

Everything God created bore the potential to be corrupted and therefore is not "perfect" as to being incorruptible. The only created entity that was "perfect" was Jesus Christ.

Satan was cast out of heaven just before Jesus commenced the "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth." This followed upon the last day (Tuesday before the cross) that He preached in the temple. John 12:31

Adam and Eve had freewill to either believe what God said ... they chose to disobey ... when they did the dominion (kingship of earth) that was originally given to Adam was forfeited to satan. Because of that choice ... they and all of their offspring (mankind) are born with a sinful nature (our natural tendencies being more toward sin). Sin corrupted the earth and everything in/on it.

And thus is the reason you no longer have a "free will". You're will does not act independent of your fallen nature or your sin.

In reality, Jesus was the only human who ever fully had a free will; because His will was directed by the Divine aspect of His personhood. Adam's will was only "probationally free"; because he was not incorruptible.

Did God know this was going to happen? Yes, the plan of salvation (redemption through Christ) was already put in place before God created anything on earth ... but again ... that redemption would be by choice.

Only by the choice of Christ. He did not have to redeem any of us.

We still have the same choice(s) that Adam and Eve had today.

Believe and serve Jesus/God or not. Accept and follow Jesus and be changed and redeemed (receive eternal life) through Him ... or not.

One of the consequences of Adam's disobedience was the severance of human probational fellowship with God. Thus is why we are dead in trespass and sin with no hope of making ourselves spiritually alive. That is solely a Divine act of God.
 
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Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Look at posts # 176 and 177. What this verse means was already addressed.
 
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The way I view it is, God created all the Angels, including Lucifer, and similar to the creation of man, endowed them with a will, not an autonomous will, but neither a morally perfect will, perfect as in immutable. So there was a freedom to turn, and for reason unknown, Lucifer the Prince of Angels turned and plotted against his Creator, a coo, and a third of the Angels followed him, and as a result were cast out of Heaven. I know this is a simple understanding, but I am content to leave it here. I think most (excluding the will discussion) of this is confirmed from prophecies in the book of Isaiah. The most difficult part which I do not understand is why, why did God knowingly create Lucifer and the Angels who would rebel? Did they really have a "chance" to do otherwise? If they did, they could have proved the knowledge of God to be false, and I'll let you follow the rabbit down that hole.

I think the simple answer to your question is obviously Satan is not omniscient.

Did Satan know when he made the decision to transgress, what that would do to him? (That it would make him unable from that point on to do any good.) Reason would have it that the answer to that question would be yes; because Adam knew.

Now Adam knew there were serious consequences to transgressing, yet I don't think Adam fully knew the result those consequences would bring about. Adam had no point of reference to know what death was.

Now angels are not created in God's image so therefore do not have the capacity to be redeemed. Yet we can see in Scripture from what Satan says and does that he understands the redemption plan better than we do.

So assuming Satan had that knowledge before the fall; (which is a Scripturally valid assumption) the onus is totally on him! He's not the hapless soldier in the battle that makes a mistake. He's the general with the full knowledge of the battle plan that commits treason! I don't feel sorry for Satan at all! LOL What he did is the epitome of cowardice!

Now Satan not having the omniscience, or omnipotence of God, apparently didn't "know" the power wherewith the darkness that Satan as a created entity existed in. This is despite the fact that Satan knows (intellectually speaking) that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal and immortal when Satan is not.

Now for what ever reason (the actual reason being "evil") this made Satan angry and jealous of God - and pride is the crux of why Satan chose to disobey.

Now if Satan hadn't disobeyed, the process by wherewith God would ultimately vanquish that evil would have not been set in motion (at least yet). The very nature of the corruptibility of the creation made disobedience inevitable. And of course God knew this because He's omniscient!

So why'd God do it? Because all of this it to His glory. He demonstrates to us His created entities His love through this plan.

It really is a genius plan - BOSS!

Ya follow me?
 
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Tone

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And thus is the reason you no longer have a "free will". You're will does not act independent of your fallen nature or your sin.

In reality, Jesus was the only human who ever fully had a free will; because His will was directed by the Divine aspect of His personhood. Adam's will was only "probationally free"; because he was not incorruptible.

Which is why He says:

Luke 4:18
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"

Below, is from a couple of other threads that I believe lends to the idea of a captive will and its relation to illusion (darkness):

So, all weapons are valid, even if one person will refuse to consider their opponents' weapon choice as being real. Maybe this is the root of "choice" itself...being the most basic and ultimately unique device of the individual. Or, it really can be just an illusion...
On the futility of evidence-based apologetics

I think these posts from another thread fit in with the above:

Maybe it's in the darkness where we cling desperately and resolutely to our shields and swords, until the light shines brightly upon us, and we can clearly see that our weapons were but a passing illusion...and then, for the first time, our wills are free to choose.



The light shows that our weapons are, but, the illusion of freewill...we see that our wills are captive...as more is revealed...freedom is gained.


I would say that we are unnatural (post "Fall"), so the "condition of our nature" is twisted in deep darkness (profound confusion).

Before the light shines, man is lost in a sea of subjectivity, if you will, with no way to orient himself...adrift...so deluded, that all he can do, to have some sense of peace, is cling to illusion.

After the light shines, there is resistance within and without...objects present themselves and they must be dealt with--no longer deniable...fear surges more powerful and pervasive than ever before...it is a real fear, of exposure...

*We are castaways...no longer sailing...adrift at sea...traveling the length of our dreams...

**And as the light continues in its undying glorious shine, the castaway looks around and suddenly sees that, the illusion he so desperately clung to, was, in fact, an unknown rock...that grows and grows gradually into a land he has never known...a land of true peace...

*From Darkness and light and man’s nature
 
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childeye 2

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Only problem with this, is that a creation that doesn't exist yet, can not be ignorant of its Creator. Knowledge requires a conscience and in relation to the created entity; it needs some form of substance to have a conscience.
Respectfully, you are forgetting that there indeed is a consciousness of creation in heaven known as angels. Scripture indicates that angels sang and shouted the day the earth was created. Also evil began in heaven with Lucifer, a son of the morning, and where vainglory first manifests in the creation.
I have no idea what you mean by this statement.
This statement is to state what God's manifold purpose for the creation is from the beginning to the end, so as to see a big picture of the creation that includes all dispensation of time and times as a means to an end.

Again, you need a created thing with a consciousness before it actually has the capacity to be unthankful. So this can not answer the issue raised by the language in Genesis.
Again, the angels are created things with the capacity to become unthankful.
This verse means that the creation itself is not what caused itself to be subject to death. Man's transgression did that. "
Respectfully, the verse says the creation was made subject to vanity (Void of Truth/knowledge of God). Man's transgression was prompted by Satan's cunning lie which appealed to vanity and subtly introduced a false and corrupt image of god.
 
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DamianWarS

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How some Israelite in the wilderness 3500 years ago, hearing this read to them would have "received it" has no bearing on us in the current.

For those God redeems, there will always be some ambiguity or "abstraction" of our understanding. God's "word" (the word made flesh, the logos, the written revelation); all of that as God applies it to us, is a living "thing" and what ever understanding we have of it comes from the Holy Ghost anyways.

In this sense it will always be "abstract" because it's not confined to culture or time. Humanly speaking, an American who studies this will have a variant of take on it than a Japanese person who studies it, because they come from very different cultures. That doesn't matter to God though because the foundation of truth that the Holy Spirit reveals to both, is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Both the American and the Japanese person are going to say: "Oh I get it because of.... " and the "because of" is going to be a different set of influences for each of them, both coming from different cultures and their own personal experience. The Holy Spirit reaches across time, culture and language to bring truth to God's elect.

The cultural historical information the Scripture was written from can be useful and is certainly interesting; but that is not what saves us. And none of us, regardless of how well we know the ancient history or culture knows the whole of truth and God honors the humility to admit that.
it has every bit of bearing on the text. What was written or spoken 3500 years ago to an Israelite audience had a purpose and meaning and this meaning is important when understanding it today, this is called a good exegesis. How we apply the text is abstract and from HS inspiration but that's not necessarily the meaning of the text which remains the same as it did 3500 years ago, especially when we are talking about between the line assertions.

To start "beginning" is a translated word so if you want to grasp the true meaning you would have to study ancient Hebrew and with that study must come a firm grasp on how these words were understood. "beginning" is a good translation because English is a very abstract language and it does not read well when it's just full of strict concretes like "at the summit God fatten the skies and the land" this doesn't make sense to use because we don't think this way so it would be fruitless and confusing. But if we are to enter into the unwritten thoughts of the account we must enter into the written thoughts first and give them high value, not our superimposed abstract ideas.

You gloss over words that have clear contrasts in the text such as the difference between the speaking into being, separating and organizing in the first 3 days and the latter 3 days using a different word to envoke a filling up of the things in the first 3 days. By doing this you miss the parallels in the text between day 1 and 4, day 2 and 5 and day 3 and 6 and miss the focus.

The Ancient Hebrew mind reasoned in something called block logic, where thoughts are arranged in blocks and may actually conflict other blocks or other ideas. in Hebrew block logic two thoughts may be held at the same time that opposes each other yet both are true. These accounts are written with a purpose in mind and this is what the blocks of information are geared toward and agree with and to understand them we must first understand the goal.

Western thinkers think in step logic where each thought progresses to the next until a conclusion is made without conflicts. You seem to be superimposing your western thinking over the creation account looking at day 1 leading to day 2 leading to day 3... but this is not how the account is actually written.

Each day is a block of information and together they all point to the same goal and this is what they agree on but this goal doesn't care how it disagrees with scientific thought because that's not the point of the text. For example, day 1 light is made and day 4 the sun and all celestial objects are created. This doesn't make sense if we demand the text to reconcile itself with western step logic. How these events actually unfolded is not the purpose of the text, the purpose of the text to establishing a monotheistic God over all things using a contextualized account but in a manner that is highly prophetic as well. Each word is very intentionally crafted. The text shows us there was a preexistent formless universe in chaos and darkness that God brought light into, organized, reshaped and filled it up with life then established his rest over this creation and this itself is a great metaphor to the spiritual change of life in Christ in the Christian.

Who created the formless universe or the darkness? Well the text doesn't address this but that's not the point of the text. You're trying to force something in the text to reconcile it to fit your abstract step logic world view by saying "the very commencement of any action of God - evil appeared." (very step logic based) this may very well be true but this has nothing to do with the text. The text is not about how the darkness came, there simply was darkness and God spoke light into it. This points to not only creation through God but salvation through God as well because he still speaks light into the darkness today in all believers.
 
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The Righterzpen

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That would be the exception I mentioned, and there are very few if any other sins that work that way. Whether we do the act or only fantasize, one is deriving pleasure from it so that is sin, but again, that is one type sin that works that way out of a billion that do not. meaning the rule would be, not a sin until it's, well...sin. Or we don't sin until we've sinned. it is what it is when it becomes what it is, but not before.

So, evil's origin is when evil is evident, but the main point should be, it originates from us.

The desire for pleasure isn't sin. Failure to glorify God in the pursuit of pleasure by transgression, is what sin is. And this is why sin in born in the heart before it ever becomes manifest in the real world. The chief end of man is to glorify God; so what ever isn't of faith is sin. And this is why if you bring a temptation to God for His assistance, He honored that because you seek to glorify Him.

Jesus did this and this is how he (in human nature) overcame temptation. This is why He says to Satan "You shall worship God alone!" Now Jesus had a particular advantage that we don't in that He had a Divine nature; but the unique manner in which Christ was created does not absolve us of our guilt when we do disobey.

Now "evil" as it pertains to our personal sin does manifest from our own hearts. Yet "evil" (or maybe rather "darkness") preexisted our existence.

Follow me here?
 
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childeye 2

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Yeah it's like the "Nothing" of The NeverEnding Story (film) - Wikipedia.

It works (or unworks) against whatever/whoever sustains creation.



But when spoken, as lies, they do steal, kill, and destroy things.
If I may point out concerning this issue about what sustains all things and what tears down, that all things were built upon faith.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Which is why He says:

Luke 4:18
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"

Below, is from a couple of other threads that I believe lends to the idea of a captive will and its relation to illusion (darkness):


On the futility of evidence-based apologetics

I think these posts from another thread fit in with the above:

:oldthumbsup: :oldthumbsup: :oldthumbsup:

That's DEEP!

Thanks for the link!










*From Darkness and light and man’s nature
 
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The Righterzpen

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Which is why He says:

Luke 4:18
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"

Below, is from a couple of other threads that I believe lends to the idea of a captive will and its relation to illusion (darkness):

On the futility of evidence-based apologetics

I think these posts from another thread fit in with the above:


*From Darkness and light and man’s nature

:oldthumbsup: :oldthumbsup: :oldthumbsup:

That's DEEP!

Thanks for the link!
 
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Tone

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it has every bit of bearing on the text. What was written or spoken 3500 years ago to an Israelite audience had a purpose and meaning and this meaning is important when understanding it today, this is called a good exegesis. How we apply the text is abstract and from HS inspiration but that's not necessarily the meaning of the text which remains the same as it did 3500 years ago, especially when we are talking about between the line assertions.

To start "beginning" is a translated word so if you want to grasp the true meaning you would have to study ancient Hebrew and with that study must come a firm grasp on how these words were understood. "beginning" is a good translation because English is a very abstract language and it does not read well when it's just full of strict concretes like "at the summit God fatten the skies and the land" this doesn't make sense to use because we don't think this way so it would be fruitless and confusing. But if we are to enter into the unwritten thoughts of the account we must enter into the written thoughts first and give them high value, not our superimposed abstract ideas.

You gloss over words that have clear contrasts in the text such as the difference between the speaking into being, separating and organizing in the first 3 days and the latter 3 days using a different word to envoke a filling up of the things in the first 3 days. By doing this you miss the parallels in the text between day 1 and 4, day 2 and 5 and day 3 and 6 and miss the focus.

The Ancient Hebrew mind reasoned in something called block logic, where thoughts are arranged in blocks and may actually conflict other blocks or other ideas. in Hebrew block logic two thoughts may be held at the same time that opposes each other yet both are true. These accounts are written with a purpose in mind and this is what the blocks of information are geared toward and agree with and to understand them we must first understand the goal.

Western thinkers think in step logic where each thought progresses to the next until a conclusion is made without conflicts. You seem to be superimposing your western thinking over the creation account looking at day 1 leading to day 2 leading to day 3... but this is not how the account is actually written.

Each day is a block of information and together they all point to the same goal and this is what they agree on but this goal doesn't care how it disagrees with scientific thought because that's not the point of the text. For example, day 1 light is made and day 4 the sun and all celestial objects are created. This doesn't make sense if we demand the text to reconcile itself with western step logic. How these events actually unfolded is not the purpose of the text, the purpose of the text to establishing a monotheistic God over all things using a contextualized account but in a manner that is highly prophetic as well. Each word is very intentionally crafted. The text shows us there was a preexistent formless universe in chaos and darkness that God brought light into, organized, reshaped and filled it up with life then established his rest over this creation and this itself is a great metaphor to the spiritual change of life in Christ in the Christian.

Who created the formless universe or the darkness? Well the text doesn't address this but that's not the point of the text. You're trying to force something in the text to reconcile it to fit your abstract step logic world view by saying "the very commencement of any action of God - evil appeared." (very step logic based) this may very well be true but this has nothing to do with the text. The text is not about how the darkness came, there simply was darkness and God spoke light into it. This points to not only creation through God but salvation through God as well because he still speaks light into the darkness today in all believers.

:hoho:
 
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Tone

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If I may point out concerning this issue about what sustains all things and what tears down, that all things were built upon faith.

Will you elaborate?
 
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