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Theory on the origin of evil

The Righterzpen

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I agree. God is a Spirit. If He were to step off a curb in the path of an oncoming car, the car would pass right through.

The nature of what God is as an entity can not be confused with His knowledge and that's basically what the theory is addressing.

Was the knowledge of good and evil that God possessed brought from knowledge to reality by the act of creating something? Is it the reaction to God's action? If that is the case than this does not make God "subject to this law of physics" because the laws of physics are also only theory until there is an action.

You follow me?
 
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Kenny'sID

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I agree that the choice to transgress does; doesn't answer the beginning of Genesis though that talks about "darkness upon the face of the deep".... etc. That seems to indicate that evil exists outside of the creatures' choice to partake in it.

Isn't the transgression the actual evil?
 
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DamianWarS

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Origins of Evil Theory

I've often wondered about the origins of evil? Many church fathers and people in Christian circles believe that evil began with Satan. This may be true, depending on your definition of "Satan"; but if we look closely at the first few verses of Genesis, we'll see that this can not be. If we believe Satan is a fallen angel; (as much of church history has taught) than we know for a fact that evil did not begin with him, since it was present before angels were ever created. Darkness (destruction) was "upon the face of the deep" from the first time God had uttered "Let there be light."

The first words of Genesis start out with "In the beginning". This phrase is in "construct state" and has a "Beth" prefixed preposition to it. The construct state declares that the state of one noun is dependent upon the action of another. In this case the state of heaven and earth are dependent upon the action of God. (Yeah, I know that's an "uh duh" type of observation.) Now as for the Beth prefixed preposition, it indicates the location or instrumentality of the action. So in other words, the action of what happened "in the beginning" began with God. (Yeah, I know; another "no brainer".) This is important to understand though, because what it is really saying is that all subsequent happenings (including the presence of evil) did not exist before the beginning!

In a prior study I did concerning what had occurred "in the beginning"; I'd stated that I didn't know where evil came from. (I'm still not sure I know?) In that study, it appeared to me that evil was already present from the point that God began the creation process. I'd thought that it may have even predated creation itself. From a little closer look at this word / phrase "in the beginning" though it seems that from the very commencement of any action of God - evil appeared.

Interesting - now why is that?

Here is another point where I'm not sure I have the answer to this question but I'm gonna give it a crack with a theory that's been kicking around in my head here. Now admittedly, this theory isn't "my theory" - no, it's actually part of physics. "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Now let's back up here from "the beginning" to before the beginning. Before any action of creating ever commenced; there eternally existed God. No action brought God into existence. He was just always ...there! So because there was no "action" that created God; there was no "reaction" to His existence. He as an entity is "something" and the opposite of "something" is "nothing". So, in eternity, besides God there was nothing and so any opposite of God that would have "existed" - did so in theory only.

Of course being omniscient; God knew this. He knew that as soon as He "did" something; there would be an equal and opposite reaction to what ever He did. He knew that what ever action He took; it would bring this theoretical opposite of Him into reality. (Because to every action is an equal and opposite reaction.) This is what I believe was the knowledge of good and evil that God possessed.

So, for as much as an oxymoron as this is going to sound like: this created a "dilemma" for God. He had to come up with a plan to adequately compensate for the opposite that would come as a result of His action. Now God being good, holy, righteous, just etc - the opposite of such would be evil, sin, wickedness, injustice etc. So how could God overcome this "reaction"? Well, since God is eternally existent; it would seem to me that His incorporating His own presence into His original action (i.e. being incarnated into His own creation, sending His Spirit etc.) does not create another "reaction" because God always existed.

So thus is the nuts and bolts of my "scientific" theory. (Admittedly, likely still needs some refining!) Evil was inherent in the act of creation itself because it was the opposite reaction to God's action. Could God have created a world where there would be no reaction to His action? I don't know; maybe on some other dimension or level He has? As for us though and what we understand of our physical universe; we could not exist without these contrasting duel addition to this though; this theory also lends explanation to why God could create something He knew was going to fall and still legitimately call it good. (Which the "good" in Hebrew really means "pleasant". I.E. God was happy with what He'd made. It "pleased" Him; which there is another whole dimension to that application - which maybe I'll tackle later.) Any how; ultimately God is not responsible for the fall because He did not create evil; nor did He plant within man the seed that would lead to transgression. All that transpired was a byproduct of the act of creation itself.

The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

What of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil than? The tree was just the vehicle that clued man into what was already present in his world. It simply opened the door to the knowledge of both good and evil; but it didn't create either! Remember it's the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"; not the "tree of good and evil".

The tree was necessary for that knowledge though; and that knowledge was necessary in order for humanity to truly know God. You see it was still possible for Adam and Eve to behave in ways that displeased God; they just had no knowledge of it because they had no commandments. The only instruction they'd had from God was to take care of the garden and not to eat the fruit off this tree. See "evil" had entered into the world even though sin had not, because sin is disobedience to God! So long as Adam and Eve didn't disobey; sin didn't enter, even though "evil" was still present.

Kinda weird huh

In regards to sin itself. Even if there was no tree; God would eventually given them a commandment that they wouldn't have kept. Think of all the trouble a person could get themselves into out of sheer ignorance. God is not simply going to sit back and ignore actions that offend Him. So, as long as they obeyed; the knowledge of any offense of action they may have done was hidden from them. As far as any offenses they'd committed against God? Up until the point they actually disobeyed; apparently they had done (or failed to do) something that warranted God to tell them to care for the garden. Once He had instructed them to do so; obviously they obeyed, so still sin hadn't entered.

The word "good" in Genesis:

OK, now that we know "good" in Genesis didn't mean "unable to be corrupted". What did it mean? "Now I didn't really plan on putting "this" "here" but it's a good place for it. I'll explain what the word "good" means in the Hebrew and how the applied to Genesis and even the current underpinnings of how this creation is constructed.

This word "good" basically means "pleasing"; although pleasing in a natural way, not so in the connotation of lust or perverse desire for something. It's the same word used to describe Abraham's wife Sarah; she was "beautiful" she was "pleasant (or pleasing) to look at". She appealed to other men as an object of physical beauty. This word, or derivatives there of; is used in description of attractive men too and even other living things; i.e. physical qualities that would make them attractive - like health, strength, vigor, vitality of complexion / hair etc.

We see this concept of "good / pleasing" being inherent in the biology of the physical world. Some researchers at one point did an international study to come up with a composite of what human beings considered to be physically attractive or desirable in other human beings. The point of the study was to see if there was an underlying consistency in who people would consider to be the opposite parent to their individual future offspring. Of course, on account of the nature of this study - it only included heterosexual individuals of a probable reproductive age.

The questions were posed with line drawings of human forms and the findings were interesting. The consensus was that people preferred a reproductive mate that was not too fat or too thin, who's body was symmetrically proportional and who's skin and hair had a healthy appearance. The next most important attribute for both genders was the appearance of the face and head. Was the face symmetrical and did the head appear to have the proper skull capacity to be associated with good intelligence. Another attribute that was some what of a surprise to the researchers, yet none the less important to both genders was the appearance of a person's hands. Hands were generally thought of in relation to a person's propensity to be industrious.

Contrary to what the western fashion industry portrays to us; men generally were not attracted to women who were too much taller than they, who's breasts were either too large or too small and who's hips appeared too narrow. Both these portions of anatomy were considered vital to reproductive capacity: a pelvis who's breadth was adequate to safely deliver a baby and breasts that would produce the appropriate amount of milk to feed the child. The "universal ratio" came out to be an hour glass figure where the waist was roughly 10 inches smaller than the bust and hips.

For women, proportion was also of notable interest. Women ranked higher in considering the size and shape of a man's head as intelligence was generally believed to be related to temperament. (An ill-tempered strong man doesn't make a good mate.) That ranked just as high for women as a man who's body appeared to be healthy and physically fit. The "ideal shape" for men was the diamond (or kite) shape; head, neck, shoulders being the top of the diamond and chest, abdomen, hips being the bottom. Interestingly enough, even in industrial societies the size and shape of man's pelvis were considered important too. Even though women in industrial societies couldn't identify why a man's ability to run well seemed important; they considered it to be an attractive attribute. In hunter gatherer type societies - obviously this was attributed to a man's ability to catch food.

Now as for the reproductive attractiveness of people who have less than perfect bodies; this is where personality became much more important. This was especially true of people born with handicapping genetic defects. Here is where perseverance and the development of a specific skill set became vital to these individuals' survival.

So as interesting as all this research was - what does it have to do with the word "good" in Genesis? It goes to show us that what we find to be naturally "pleasing" or "attractive" is inherent in the make up of creation itself. Our inclinations and natural drives toward these things are there in us because they first existed in God. The good pleasure of God was made inherent in the world He created. (It's reflected in the reproductive process of every thing on this planet.) What is "good" gives us joy, just as the creation God had made gave Him pleasure. This goodness and joy we see extended even in areas of our lives that have nothing to do with our own sexuality. We find good pleasure in our children, our pets, our friends and family, our hobbies, the outdoors - what ever gives us pleasure.

Of course there is a "flip side" to this too. Our "good pleasure" can be corrupted into something perverse. This is where there is addiction to substances, sexual behavior, the pursuit of wealth or power and prestige. None of these things (drugs, alcohol, sex, money, authority, respect) are evil in and of themselves; but the corrupted desire for them is. This corrupted desire is what makes evil apparent in this world. Born out of corrupted desires comes hatred, jealousy, malice, envy, strife, prejudice, greed etc. Their manifest deeds being: criminal violence, theft, lies, unjust treatment, inequality, immoral behavior etc. These culminate in death and destruction; the final say of it all being the wrath of God.

The knowledge of good and evil had a profound impact upon this universe!

a "beginning" is an abstract concept, something that ancient Hebrew is not good at doing. "create" is also an abstract concept. beginning more concretely is "at the head" and create is actually concretely is about "filling" or "shaping" and even more concretely "fattening"

This is also consistent with the days of creation, you will notice days 1-3 God does not create but he speaks "let there be..." often by separating that which is already there. In days 4-6 God has finished these base layers (days 1-3) now he fills them up or shapes them (create) in days 4-6. Compare the days and you will notice a pattern in days 1 & 4, days 2 & 5 and days 3 & 6 go together. For example, did you ever wonder why God spoke light on day 1 but created the sun on day 4? Perhaps this arrangement has a different order than that which can be reconciled with a strict timeline.

When the text is read concretely what it suggests is that the heavens and the earth predate this account which is affirmed in v2 saying the earth was formless and void. other translations (NIV) actually say it was empty. So if "create" has a concrete meaning (ancient Hebrew) of filling or shaping then read the passage again keeping this in mind how this "create" word in a concrete context is used contrasting the "formless and empty" state of the land and see they are essentially opposites.

What verse 2 shows us is a universe existing in chaos and what the preceding days 1-3 show are gathering this chaos and organizing it, then days 4-6 show filling these spaces with life and this is the account that verse 1 describes and saying, in the beginning, God organized the chaos and filled it up.... but the "chaos" seems to have been pre-existent of this account.

The text also shows us that God speaks light into being then he separates the light from the darkness. The darkness was preexistent and God does not speak it into being. He also makes sure it is distinct from the light by separating it and he calls the light good, implicitly calling the darkness "not good".

These are metaphors for good and evil and even for the incarnate Word of God. Col. 1:15 tells us Jesus is the firstborn of all creation and that everything is created through him. The days 1 light appears to be the first example of at the very least an image of God as he is true light and Jesus is called the light of the world. Could the light be the incarnate Word penetrating darkness, separating and overpower it? It certainly points to Christ but when we read it like this we are shedding off this silly strict timeline and demand for it to be scientifically reconciled and read it knowing the creation account is prophetic, it points to Christ and has more important things it's focused around.

I would think the account shows us whatever "darkness" is, it is a part of this chaos and unformed void of the universe which is the backdrop of the account and already established before v1.
 
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The Righterzpen

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I added the above^.

His Holy One did not see corruption...He Who we are to be One with, therefore, what has seen corruption?

Jesus was fundamentally different than any other human being, because He had a Divine nature inseparably joined to a human nature. Adam on the other hand was created in God's (Jesus's) image. The second person of the Trinity, in turn was incarnated in the likeness of Adam to accomplish what Adam could not because of the temporal nature of how he was created. This is why Adam was corruptible to begin with.

Now could Jesus have transgressed? the answer to that is both "yes" and "no". He could have chose to transgress because He was human, but also He could not transgress because he was also God. The Divine nature made him incorruptible as a created entity. Kind of hard to wrap our brains around - I know!

If Jesus had sinned in His humanity, that would have meant instantaneous death; (as well as instantaneous destruction for the rest of us) because the Divine nature could not remain attached to the human nature. And the Divine nature being God can not die. So although Jesus the human would be destroyed, the Divine nature would just return back to God.

Now there have been two arguments presented about this.

1. If Jesus could sin, than He still can sin
2. If Jesus couldn't sin than He was other than human and the temptations meant nothing to Him and He really can't relate to us.

Both these arguments miss something very important.

1. Jesus can not sin now because post ascension into heaven; He is glorified and as King His "created" nature is now different than it was when He walked the earth.

2. So since Jesus could have sinned in the flesh, the temptations were real and He can relate.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Isn't the transgression the actual evil?

No, the transgression is the manifestation of what's in the heart playing out in the material world. Sin in the heart is an internal attitude before it is an external event.
 
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The Righterzpen

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a "beginning" is an abstract concept, something that ancient Hebrew is not good at doing. "create" is also an abstract concept. beginning more concretely is "at the head" and create is actually concretely is about "filling" or "shaping" and even more concretely "fattening"

This is also consistent with the days of creation, you will notice days 1-3 God does not create but he speaks "let there be..." often by separating that which is already there. In days 4-6 God has finished these base layers (days 1-3) now he fills them up or shapes them (create) in days 4-6. Compare the days and you will notice a pattern in days 1 & 4, days 2 & 5 and days 3 & 6 go together. For example, did you ever wonder why God spoke light on day 1 but created the sun on day 4? Perhaps this arrangement has a different order than that which can be reconciled with a strict timeline.

"Beginning" is not so abstract that it didn't have a concrete point of origin; in that before the beginning was nothing and after the beginning was something.

The same thing can be said for "create". It doesn't matter if God "spoke it", "thought it", "molded it" or stood on His head and sang "The long and winding road" backwards. It still went from not being there to being there.

As far as "time line" goes; when God separated the day from the night; that was the setting up of "time". Time as we experience it is a linear thing that only goes one direction. An omnipotent Creator does not need thousands of years to make something. "Theistic evolution" doesn't work because you don't have death until you have transgression and in order to have evolution, you have to have death.

When the text is read concretely what it suggests is that the heavens and the earth predate this account which is affirmed in v2 saying the earth was formless and void. other translations (NIV) actually say it was empty. So if "create" has a concrete meaning (ancient Hebrew) of filling or shaping then read the passage again keeping this in mind how this "create" word in a concrete context is used contrasting the "formless and empty" state of the land and see they are essentially opposites.

You are correct that "something" was in the "formless and void" before matter (made up of atomic structures) "materialized". But just because you would not be able to "see" what's there, does not mean a creative process isn't happening.

What verse 2 shows us is a universe existing in chaos and what the preceding days 1-3 show are gathering this chaos and organizing it, then days 4-6 show filling these spaces with life and this is the account that verse 1 describes and saying, in the beginning, God organized the chaos and filled it up.... but the "chaos" seems to have been pre-existent of this account.

Yes, that "chaos" (obviously some manifestation of entropy), is a result of the presence of "evil". Note God is doing things to bring order and because He's God he has the ability to bring that order. The "chaos" can't do it. This is why "the big bang" would never happen. Entropy is counteracted by God "creating".

The text also shows us that God speaks light into being then he separates the light from the darkness. The darkness was preexistent and God does not speak it into being. He also makes sure it is distinct from the light by separating it and he calls the light good, implicitly calling the darkness "not good".

Yes, also correct. God did not have to "make" the darkness because (as of my theory) it came about as a byproduct of the commencement of His creative action.

These are metaphors for good and evil and even for the incarnate Word of God. Col. 1:15 tells us Jesus is the firstborn of all creation and that everything is created through him. The days 1 light appears to be the first example of at the very least an image of God as he is true light and Jesus is called the light of the world. Could the light be the incarnate Word penetrating darkness, separating and overpower it? It certainly points to Christ but when we read it like this we are shedding off this silly strict timeline and demand for it to be scientifically reconciled and read it knowing the creation account is prophetic, it points to Christ and has more important things it's focused around.

Colossians states that Jesus is the first born from the dead. Not that he's the first created entity. Revelation says that Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So what that means is outside of time; Jesus "rose from the dead" before creation ever started. He is the entity by whom and for whom all things were created.

The "metaphor" you present of Jesus being the "light of the world" is clearly there in Genesis. But that should not surprise us because this is how the creation was set up. It testifies to God and His plan.

Hard for us to wrap our brains around, I know; but picture the created universe in a sphere that is encased in a "space" (called eternity) that has no boundaries. Now God as the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal and immortal Creator has the ability to insert Himself into the universe at any point of time and place He desires. This is how Jesus was the "lamb slain from the foundations of the world, because the atonement took place outside of time as well as inside of time.

I would think the account shows us whatever "darkness" is, it is a part of this chaos and unformed void of the universe which is the backdrop of the account and already established before v1.

Agreed!
 
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Sanoy

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But how did the water come into being?
I must say that I don't question this anymore...I used to many years ago. I've come to just accept that evil exists and we don't know why or where it comes from. I do like the topic to hear others' views.

And sure, free will give us the choice.

But if you believe in exorcisms, don't you also believe that the evil in the person is a being?
There's a priest (more than one really) here in Italy that is very famous for performing exorcisms...he says that he's dealing with an entity.
Well the water is choice. Before God created beings with free will there was just God and He can only act according to his nature.

I believe that in an exorcism there is a being, and that beings nature is evil. A blue flower doesn't actually have the characteristic of being blue, blue is something we experience when we are in contact with a blue flower. So the evil presence is something we experience when we are in contact with something of an evil nature. I don't mean to suggest it is as trivial as color, it could also be an emanation.
 
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Kenny'sID

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No, the transgression is the manifestation of what's in the heart playing out in the material world. Sin in the heart is an internal attitude before it is an external event.

But is it a sin before it plays out? You sound like you are stating that as a fact, are you?

With a few exceptions , I was always under the impression it wasn't sin until we actually did the deed/sin. I mean if our process of deciding not to do the deed were counted against us as the deed it self, it seems to me, it wouldn't be fair.
 
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DamianWarS

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Well at least we agree on something. You seem to be approaching the text based on a very abstract world view, may I suggest we approach it first based on the context it would have been received. If you can't uniquely smell, taste, see, feel, or hear it, then it is an abstract. The Hebrew word translated as "beginning" is actually developed from a word for summit as in the top of the mountain is the first to come fourth. A summit of a mountain is a concrete, at the very least you can see and touch it but you cannot uniquely see a beginning, or feel it, touch it, see it or smell it. A beginning is an indeed an abstract.
 
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GodsGrace101

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"In the beginning God...." and "In the beginning was God..." Nothing existed but God before God created anything. This is how I know evil did not predate creation.
Are you saying evil appeared when God created earth and man?
 
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GodsGrace101

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I don't have the time or inclination to read the short book that is the O.P. and I seriously doubt that many have done so.

But I think I have the general idea and I'll take a crack at it or at least some of it.

It seems to me that you are assuming that the creation of the "heavens" include the heaven of spirit beings, as it were. I don't think it is necessary to read that into the passage in Genesis. He doesn't say that He created all of the 3 heavens when He created the earth. He does speak of 2 of the heavens - but not the 3rd, where He supposedly has His throne and where angels live.

That's a law of physics and applies to this “physical” universe. I doubt very much that it is a law which touches on the origin of evil which is not a physical concept but a philosophical one. The manifestation of evil was always possible from the 1st that beings were created and given free will.

I can't buy into your idea that "physics" (which concern the "physical universe") have any bearing on the non physical origin of evil.

Evil did not predate creation. It apparently predated the creation of this universe. But it did not predate all of creation since that would make evil an attribute of God and we know that cannot be.

Good - then we are OK on that - if you mean before the creation of the physical universe.

But if you mean before any creation at all - I will disagree with you on that.

Absolutely. God is omniscient.

Which brings us to what I "think" is going on here.

The "Word of God" (the Son of the Father) has always from eternity reflected the glory of the His Father including all of His attributes. It has always been the Father's great pleasure to shower all that He is and all that He knows on His Son.

It has always been the great pleasure of the Son to return any glory He receives from the Father to the Father from whence comes all things.

Scriptures are available. But I'll bet that everyone here knows what they are or can find them if they try.

While the Holy Spirit is a bit more mysterious - although He is also a "person" - I believe He is the "by product" of this mutual "love" which encompasses the entire nature of God.

The creation was spoken into being to display God and "magnify" (His word) His glory.

Speaking of the Son - the scriptures say that "all things were created by Him, for Him, and in Him all things exist. That includes all things in the spirit world and in this physical universe.

IMO - God wishes to include every aspect of Who He is in this display of Himself.

One of those attributes is His inherent "knowledge of good and evil". That is - not evil itself but the "knowledge" of evil as well as good. Evil - is any rebellion against God's perfect will.

It is my opinion that, through the rebellion of Satan in heaven and mankind on earth, God is displaying "the knowledge of good and evil" in this age (at least in representative form) so that He can show in the ages to come what it is and what comes from rebellion against God's will. I believe He will wrap the “mechanism” for this display up when He moves on to "ages to come" - without having to repeat it again and again on the new earth or in any future worlds, whatever they may consist of.

IMO - God (being omniscient) knew full well the consequences of creating Satan and the rest of the angels as well as mankind with the ability to make "free will" choices.

What we see playing out in Heaven and earth - through the actions of the Son, in whom we (and everything else) live and move and have our "being" is exactly what He has done for eternity - namely receive what the Father gives to Him and return it to the Father give glory to the Father.

God is sovereign in all that He does and will accomplish all that He sets out to accomplish - or, more precisely, what He sends His Son forth to do.

"My Word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent It." Isaiah 55:11

Now if we don’t like what He is doing - we, as believers, can bow our necks or receive it with humbleness as His servants.

I for one am happy to play a small part in His overall plan – even if I can’t understand it all (or even like it much).

This is particularly so because, in His grace, He has promised to “reward me” for that part I played (as painful as it was in this life) with unspeakable glory in the ages to come and all eternity.

That’s not a bad deal in the end – at least for the Son and for the elect of God, which are His bride and part of His "body".
Flaws galore.
If God is all-good,,,,how does He have evil in Him to think about?

If God thinks something...does it happen?

You're getting your theology into the discussion...
We know God is sovereign and will do what He wishes to do. Also you have free will in quotation marks so you theology is coming through even there.

So if God knew the consequences,,WHY did He create these beings (us) who would have to suffer so much?

We all know God is sovereign -- not just you ---
but is He also a wicked and mean God?
Most of us would say NO.
God IS LOVE.
God IS MERCIFUL.
God IS JUST.
God IS HOLY.

I don't know any theology that teaches God is ONLY a just God with little concern for His beings...except one.
 
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GodsGrace101

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satan is the hardest thing to believe out of all the elements in the christian faith. I just can't get any logical and scriptural reasoning for him. Everything is just so incoherent and makes less sense than anything. I admit on my ignorance but I have to say more than 50% thinks he doesn't exist.
Don't feel so badly....
This is the unanswerable question.
If God is all-good and omnipotent, why does evil exist?
 
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GodsGrace101

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God created good and evil because he defined what is good and what is evil.
The N.T. says that in God there is no evil.
God is all-good.
God is Holy.

There is no evil in God.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Yes, I did read the post. Call it what you want. But what you are suggesting is dualism. Very similar to the Eastern beliefs of Yin and Yang. That good is at odds with evil. That there cannot be one without the other. Therefore, because God created good, evil must exist too. Its dualism.
That's not the description of dualism....
Dualism means there's
a good god and a bad god.
 
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Zachm531

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Your premise that God created hell and the lake of fire as "part of the plan" to punish evil is correct. That was preordained from the foundations of the world.

Evil as a "thing" though is confined to this universe and is not eternal because the creation is not eternal. Another aspect of this too is that "creation" (the new heavens and new earth) will "outlive" evil. Evil was able to be conquered by God in His becoming part of the creation. The plan really is genius.

Yet here is the fundamental difference. God did not "create" evil; because the entities that He did create that transgress and are eventually eternally lost, God did not create them for that purpose. If He had created them for the purpose of destruction than that would indeed make God evil.

Now you do raise a valid question with the statement "designated hellfire, hopelessness and overall destruction that is the “eternal flame” of “hell” talked about in revelations". Some people do think that people under God's wrath continue to sin and this is what makes the lake of fire a continuous torment. I don't believe that is true; but I'd have to ponder an answer to that; outside of those who suffer that condemnation are "going forward forever" condemned because they too are raised "going forward forever" beings.

The "mechanism" that causes "evil" to corrupt, (how ever one would define that) has been dealt with as part of the atonement and this is why the new heavens and new earth are not corruptible.

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Yeah that makes sense for sure. But i guess this is where you start going into predestination vs foreknowledge vs compatibility. Because on the one hand if the Lord didnt havs a Satan figure pre planned in his creation, the entire Bible would be different. Satan has a specific role that he needs to fill in order for the Bible to end the way it does. Because it is very clear that the new jeruselam, new eartt, His uktinate kingdom is not just foreknown but, planned.
 
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The Righterzpen

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But is it a sin before it plays out? You sound like you are stating that as a fact, are you?

With a few exceptions , I was always under the impression it wasn't sin until we actually did the deed/sin. I mean if our process of deciding not to do the deed were counted against us as the deed it self, it seems to me, it wouldn't be fair.

Depends on one's motivation. If you're struggling with something not to do it - you don't carry through on the thought - God honors that if you earnestly seek Him to help you turn. He will help you.

Yet if you justify your thoughts that are amiss saying "oh, well they aren't actions" - that's the wrong attitude.

For example: Jesus says anyone who looks upon a woman in order to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart. So for example to say - Oh I can look at porn and fantasize all I want, so long as I don't commit the act. That's sin because the attitude is amiss from the get go.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Yeah that makes sense for sure. But i guess this is where you start going into predestination vs foreknowledge vs compatibility. Because on the one hand if the Lord didnt havs a Satan figure pre planned in his creation, the entire Bible would be different. Satan has a specific role that he needs to fill in order for the Bible to end the way it does. Because it is very clear that the new jeruselam, new eartt, His uktinate kingdom is not just foreknown but, planned.

Yes, you are correct. How this works out in "real time" is a mystery to us because choices we make are still independent of "programed response". You've still independently picked out what clothing you put on this morning, what college you attended, who you married, whether or not you went to the grocery store today etc.

God does interact in "real time" to accomplish His purposes and He can do that because He's omniscient. How He does it, we're probably never going to figure out.

The ability to have independent volition to make choices in this life is a different issue than the concept of "free will" as it applies to "choosing" God. Our will isn't "free" because it's encumbered by both our own sin as well as the fall. We are corruptible / corrupted creatures living in a corrupted universe.

So, in the realm of belief, we don't "believe" unless God enacts upon us first. Belief / faith requires a supernatural opening of the understanding, changing of the heart, changing of the will, which leads to repentance and believing and walking in faith, etc.

And who becomes believers was preordained before creation ever began. How God chose who would be redeemed - none of us got the foggiest clue. All we know is that was not determined by anything we did or did not do.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Well at least we agree on something. You seem to be approaching the text based on a very abstract world view, may I suggest we approach it first based on the context it would have been received. If you can't uniquely smell, taste, see, feel, or hear it, then it is an abstract. The Hebrew word translated as "beginning" is actually developed from a word for summit as in the top of the mountain is the first to come fourth. A summit of a mountain is a concrete, at the very least you can see and touch it but you cannot uniquely see a beginning, or feel it, touch it, see it or smell it. A beginning is an indeed an abstract.

How some Israelite in the wilderness 3500 years ago, hearing this read to them would have "received it" has no bearing on us in the current.

For those God redeems, there will always be some ambiguity or "abstraction" of our understanding. God's "word" (the word made flesh, the logos, the written revelation); all of that as God applies it to us, is a living "thing" and what ever understanding we have of it comes from the Holy Ghost anyways.

In this sense it will always be "abstract" because it's not confined to culture or time. Humanly speaking, an American who studies this will have a variant of take on it than a Japanese person who studies it, because they come from very different cultures. That doesn't matter to God though because the foundation of truth that the Holy Spirit reveals to both, is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Both the American and the Japanese person are going to say: "Oh I get it because of.... " and the "because of" is going to be a different set of influences for each of them, both coming from different cultures and their own personal experience. The Holy Spirit reaches across time, culture and language to bring truth to God's elect.

The cultural historical information the Scripture was written from can be useful and is certainly interesting; but that is not what saves us. And none of us, regardless of how well we know the ancient history or culture knows the whole of truth and God honors the humility to admit that.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Are you saying evil appeared when God created earth and man?

From what ever point the "beginning" of what God did - "commenced" - "evil" came from the point of "theoretical knowledge" into reality. This was a reaction to what God "did", but not to what God "is". Do you see the difference?

God as the Creator is far more subtenant than the "evil" that came about as a reaction to His action. This is why this is not "duelist" because the "forces" are not equal. Evil's influence is confined to the corruptible creation and this is why God conquered it. He is greater than all.

And from the language in Genesis, this happened before the earth was "formed" and "un-void".

You follow me?
 
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Ken C.

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The nature of what God is as an entity can not be confused with His knowledge and that's basically what the theory is addressing.

Was the knowledge of good and evil that God possessed brought from knowledge to reality by the act of creating something? Is it the reaction to God's action? If that is the case than this does not make God "subject to this law of physics" because the laws of physics are also only theory until there is an action.

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Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
 
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