Theory on the origin of evil

childeye 2

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And Satan only has "the power of death" because of human sin. You're condemned by the law as a sinner. The law was written by God. If you never sin, the power of death can not reign over you. This is why Jesus said: "No one takes my life from me. I lay it down freely..."
What good is saying if you never sin the power of death can not reign over you, when we all die due to sin in Adam? Jesus does lay his life down freely precisely because he can, and we can't. The law was written to condemn all as sinners so as to gather all up in grace. Hence the atonement is about grace.

The "wicked servants" could not kill Christ unless He allowed it to happen. (So therefore they didn't actually kill him; they were but mere tools in a process.) Why did He allow it to happen? He allowed it to happen - which has to do with atoning for sin.
Just because Christ allowed it to happen doesn't mean the wickedness and the cruelty being performed is God's Spirit. God's Spirit is on the cross forgiving those who are scorning him with a contempt and vile hatred that is carnal and depraved. That's the God my heart bears witness with through the Gospel.

Why did he allow it to happen? that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Which gets back to atonement has to do with satisfying the wrath of God.

Now will you ever admit that?
Why would I admit that, when the scripture says the law was meant to condemn all as sinners so as to gather all up in grace? The atonement is therefore about grace and mercy. Respectfully, I ask you to admit things scripture says, you ask me to admit things scripture doesn't say.
 
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childeye 2

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you don't seem to be able to grasp that mercy is only possible because sin is atoned for and the penalty for sin is made manifest by God's wrath.
You're right I don't get that at all. I think the penalty of sin is death through carnal servitude, not God's wrath. God's wrath is that we take Him for granted in vanity, making us subject to the same vanity that is of the prince of the air. So I don't see that mercy is only possible because sin is atoned for, I see the atonement as the mercy. And when I carry my cross and forgive others I am showing them the same mercy as Jesus did.
You also don't seem to understand that the darkness or "vanity" as you call it that you experience is because you are a sinner; and that is what Romans is talking about.
Romans 1 is talking about thinking we're wise and righteous of our own selves, and in doing so we are unthankful to God and become vain. That's what it says. It doesn't say we become vain because we're sinners.

Your fundamental problem appears to me to be that you don't believe you are worthy of wrath because you honestly don't believe you are a sinner.
Why do you keep restating what is clearly untrue? I'm on record stating we're all sinners. I even put forth this scripture as absolute verification.
Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
 
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The Righterzpen

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What good is saying if you never sin the power of death can not reign over you, when we all die due to sin in Adam? Jesus does lay his life down freely precisely because he can, and we can't. The law was written to condemn all as sinners so as to gather all up in grace. Hence the atonement is about grace.

Again, you missed the point. Death can not reign over someone who doesn't sin. JESUS DID NOT SIN! DEATH DID NOT REIGN OVER HIM! HE DID NOT HAVE TO DIE!

That was a choice He made. Will you at least agree with that?

"Jesus does lay his life down freely precisely because he can, and we can't."

Why not? Why can't we atone for our own sin?

Yes, the law was written to condemn all sinners. JESUS TOOK THE PLACE OF SINNERS. THAT IS WHY HE DIED! What about that don't you understand?

Romans 5:9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The atonement was about satisfying God's wrath! There, there is a verse for you that states it very clearly! Can you see it yet?

There are a ton more verses. (that I'd already given to you) Do you want to see them again?

Just because Christ allowed it to happen doesn't mean the wickedness and the cruelty being performed is God's Spirit. God's Spirit is on the cross forgiving those who are scorning him with a contempt and vile hatred that is carnal and depraved. That's the God my heart bears witness with through the Gospel.

Again, I've pointed to "Why have You forsaken me." But you don't want to hear that verse either. The Father forsook Jesus as part of the atonement because (again) enduring wrath has to do with being cast out of God's presence. That's ultimately what the lake of fire is.

God's Spirit was not on the cross forgiving anyone. The Holy Ghost was not the one being crucified. The Son and the Spirit are two different persons. The Father or Spirit did not pay for anyone's sin.

When Jesus said "Father forgive them because they know not who it is they do this to." That statement was directed at the Roman soldiers. That wasn't a statement of universal forgiveness.

Why did he allow it to happen? that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The word "power" (of death) in that verse is not the word "dynamos". "Dynamos" means power of authority that is intrinsic in the entity that possesses it. "Dynamos" is used in reference to God's power and authority to accomplish or decree something.

This word "power" that is in Hebrews 2:14 is the Greek word "kratos" which means "strength".

1 Corinthians 15:56 "The sting of death is sin and the strength of sin is the law."

What is Satan. Satan is the "accuser o the brethren"

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

What is Satan accusing them of. He's accusing them of breaking the law. What is the consequence of breaking the law. The consequence of breaking the law is the wrath of God.

Romans 4:15 "Because the law worketh wrath...."

Why would I admit that, when the scripture says the law was meant to condemn all as sinners so as to gather all up in grace? The atonement is therefore about grace and mercy. Respectfully, I ask you to admit things scripture says, you ask me to admit things scripture doesn't say.

Yet you clearly don't know what Scripture actually does say!
 
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The Righterzpen

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I think the penalty of sin is death through carnal servitude, not God's wrath. God's wrath is that we take Him for granted in vanity

What's the point of the lake of fire then?

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

If you are by nature a child of wrath, than how can you say you don't think you deserve His wrath?
 
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sparow

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Origins of Evil Theory

I've often wondered about the origins of evil? Many church fathers and people in Christian circles believe that evil began with Satan. This may be true, depending on your definition of "Satan"; but if we look closely at the first few verses of Genesis, we'll see that this can not be. If we believe Satan is a fallen angel; (as much of church history has taught) than we know for a fact that evil did not begin with him, since it was present before angels were ever created. Darkness (destruction) was "upon the face of the deep" from the first time God had uttered "Let there be light."

The first words of Genesis start out with "In the beginning". This phrase is in "construct state" and has a "Beth" prefixed preposition to it. The construct state declares that the state of one noun is dependent upon the action of another. In this case the state of heaven and earth are dependent upon the action of God. (Yeah, I know that's an "uh duh" type of observation.)

Now as for the Beth prefixed preposition, it indicates the location or instrumentality of the action. So in other words, the action of what happened "in the beginning" began with God. (Yeah, I know; another "no brainer".) This is important to understand though, because what it is really saying is that all subsequent happenings (including the presence of evil) did not exist before the beginning!

In a prior study I did concerning what had occurred "in the beginning"; I'd stated that I didn't know where evil came from. (I'm still not sure I know?) In that study, it appeared to me that evil was already present from the point that God began the creation process. I'd thought that it may have even predated creation itself. From a little closer look at this word / phrase "in the beginning" though it seems that from the very commencement of any action of God - evil appeared.

Interesting - now why is that?

Here is another point where I'm not sure I have the answer to this question but I'm gonna give it a crack with a theory that's been kicking around in my head here. Now admittedly, this theory isn't "my theory" - no, it's actually part of physics. "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Now let's back up here from "the beginning" to before the beginning. Before any action of creating ever commenced; there eternally existed God. No action brought God into existence. He was just always ...there! So because there was no "action" that created God; there was no "reaction" to His existence. He as an entity is "something" and the opposite of "something" is "nothing". So, in eternity, besides God there was nothing and so any opposite of God that would have "existed" - did so in theory only.

Of course being omniscient; God knew this. He knew that as soon as He "did" something; there would be an equal and opposite reaction to what ever He did. (Note I'm not saying "equal an opposite reaction" to what God is!) He knew that what ever action He took; it would bring this theoretical opposite of Him into the created reality. (Because to every action is an equal and opposite reaction.) This is what I believe was the knowledge of good and evil that God possessed.

So, for as much as an oxymoron as this is going to sound like: this created a "dilemma" for God. He had to come up with a plan to adequately compensate for the opposite that would come as a result of His action. Now God being good, holy, righteous, just etc - the opposite of such would be evil, sin, wickedness, injustice etc.

So how could God overcome this "reaction"?

Well, since God is eternally existent; it would seem to me that His incorporating His own presence into His original action (i.e. being incarnated into His own creation, sending His Spirit etc.) does not create another "reaction" because God always existed.

So thus is the nuts and bolts of my "scientific" theory. (Admittedly, likely still needs some refining!) Evil was inherent in the act of creation itself because it was the opposite reaction to God's action.

Could God have created a world where there would be no reaction to His action?

I don't know; maybe on some other dimension or level He has? As for us though and what we understand of our physical universe; we could not exist without these contrasting duel addition to this though; this theory also lends explanation to why God could create something He knew was going to fall and still legitimately call it good. (Which the "good" in Hebrew really means "pleasant". I.E. God was happy with what He'd made. It "pleased" Him; which there is another whole dimension to that application - which maybe I'll tackle later.) Any how; ultimately God is not responsible for the fall; because He did not create evil, nor did He plant within man the seed that would lead to transgression. All that transpired was a byproduct of the act of creation itself.

The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

What of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil than? The tree was just the vehicle that clued man into what was already present in his world. It simply opened the door to the knowledge of both good and evil; but it didn't create either! Remember it's the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"; not the "tree of good and evil".

The tree was necessary for that knowledge though; and that knowledge was necessary in order for humanity to truly know God. You see, it was still possible for Adam and Eve to behave in ways that displeased God; they just had no knowledge of it because they had no commandments. The only instruction they'd specifically had from God was to take care of the garden and not to eat the fruit off this tree. (All of carbon based creation was commanded to be fruitful and multiply.) See "evil" had entered into the world even though sin had not, because sin is disobedience to God! So long as Adam and Eve didn't disobey; sin didn't enter, even though "evil" was still present.

Kinda weird huh

In regards to sin itself. Even if there was no tree; God would eventually given them a commandment that they wouldn't have kept. Think of all the trouble a person could get themselves into out of sheer ignorance. God is not simply going to sit back and ignore actions that offend Him. So, as long as they obeyed; the knowledge of any offense of action they may have done was hidden from them. As far as any offenses they'd committed against God? Up until the point they actually disobeyed; apparently they had done (or failed to do) something that warranted God to tell them to care for the garden. Once He had instructed them to do so; obviously they obeyed, so still sin hadn't entered.

The word "good" in Genesis:

OK, now that we know "good" in Genesis didn't mean "unable to be corrupted". What did it mean? "Now I didn't really plan on putting "this" "here" but it's a good place for it. I'll explain what the word "good" means in the Hebrew and how the applied to Genesis and even the current underpinnings of how this creation is constructed.

This word "good" basically means "pleasing"; although pleasing in a natural way, not so in the connotation of lust or perverse desire for something. It's the same word used to describe Abraham's wife Sarah; she was "beautiful" she was "pleasant (or pleasing) to look at". She appealed to other men as an object of physical beauty. This word, or derivatives there of; is used in description of attractive men too and even other living things; i.e. physical qualities that would make them attractive - like health, strength, vigor, vitality of complexion / hair etc.

We see this concept of "good / pleasing" being inherent in the biology of the physical world. Some researchers at one point did an international study to come up with a composite of what human beings considered to be physically attractive or desirable in other human beings. The point of the study was to see if there was an underlying consistency in who people would consider to be the opposite parent to their individual future offspring. Of course, on account of the nature of this study - it only included heterosexual individuals of a probable reproductive age.

The questions were posed with line drawings of human forms and the findings were interesting. The consensus was that people preferred a reproductive mate that was not too fat or too thin, who's body was symmetrically proportional and who's skin and hair had a healthy appearance. The next most important attribute for both genders was the appearance of the face and head. Was the face symmetrical and did the head appear to have the proper skull capacity to be associated with good intelligence. Another attribute that was some what of a surprise to the researchers, yet none the less important to both genders was the appearance of a person's hands. Hands were generally thought of in relation to a person's propensity to be industrious.

Contrary to what the western fashion industry portrays to us; men generally were not attracted to women who were too much taller than they, who's breasts were either too large or too small and who's hips appeared too narrow. Both these portions of anatomy were considered vital to reproductive capacity: a pelvis who's breadth was adequate to safely deliver a baby and breasts that would produce the appropriate amount of milk to feed the child. The "universal ratio" came out to be an hour glass figure where the waist was roughly 10 inches smaller than the bust and hips.

For women, proportion was also of notable interest. Women ranked higher in considering the size and shape of a man's head as intelligence was generally believed to be related to temperament. (An ill-tempered strong man doesn't make a good mate.) That ranked just as high for women as a man who's body appeared to be healthy and physically fit. The "ideal shape" for men was the diamond (or kite) shape; head, neck, shoulders being the top of the diamond and chest, abdomen, hips being the bottom. Interestingly enough, even in industrial societies the size and shape of man's pelvis were considered important too. Even though women in industrial societies couldn't identify why a man's ability to run well seemed important; they considered it to be an attractive attribute. In hunter gatherer type societies - obviously this was attributed to a man's ability to catch food.

Now as for the reproductive attractiveness of people who have less than perfect bodies; this is where personality became much more important. This was especially true of people born with handicapping genetic defects. Here is where perseverance and the development of a specific skill set became vital to these individuals' survival.

So as interesting as all this research was - what does it have to do with the word "good" in Genesis?

It goes to show us that what we find to be naturally "pleasing" or "attractive" is inherent in the make up of creation itself. Our inclinations and natural drives toward these things are there in us because they first existed in God. The good pleasure of God was made inherent in the world He created. (It's reflected in the reproductive process of every thing on this planet.) What is "good" gives us joy, just as the creation God had made gave Him pleasure. This goodness and joy we see extended even in areas of our lives that have nothing to do with our own sexuality. We find good pleasure in our children, our pets, our friends and family, our hobbies, the outdoors - what ever gives us pleasure.

Of course there is a "flip side" to this too. Our "good pleasure" can be corrupted into something perverse. This is where there is addiction to substances, sexual behavior, the pursuit of wealth or power and prestige.

None of these things (drugs, alcohol, sex, money, authority, respect) are evil in and of themselves; but the corrupted desire for them is. This corrupted desire is what makes evil apparent in this world. Born out of corrupted desires comes hatred, jealousy, malice, envy, strife, prejudice, greed etc. Their manifest deeds being: criminal violence, theft, lies, unjust treatment, inequality, immoral behavior etc. These culminate in death and destruction; the final say of it all being the wrath of God.

The knowledge of good and evil had a profound impact upon this universe!


I am a person who likes to disagree; but what an incredible post; I cannot keep track of what I disagree with; it is a Pandora's box. What you are talking about seems to the mechanics of the mind; the limitations of cognition.

You talk of evil as though it was something that has an existence; as though it is made of a substance and is commensurate. I believe evil is an adjective that describes something or anything.

One thing I have learned from scripture is all things come in different forms, that is a thing or mostly an action, may be good or evil or anywhere in between; that evil could exist as an entity distinct from an application is something I would not give consideration to. To me evil is the absence of God or the absence of righteousness; this brings us to “does God exist” or what is the form called righteousness; does righteousness have a tangible existence; is the Law written on stone.

An idea that I came across while studying UFOs is that when the mind encounters an incomprehensible anomaly, say to do with light and sound, the mind does not know how to handle the situation and malfunctions and conjurers up something that is absurd, like a cigar flying backwards through the air glowing at the wrong end; the mind does have limitations of function and always needs reference points or axioms to function properly.

I agree with your last paragraph, yet still not revealed is the difference between good and evil which is probably spiritual in nature; the Law is spiritual.
 
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The Righterzpen

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You talk of evil as though it was something that has an existence; as though it is made of a substance and is commensurate. I believe evil is an adjective that describes something or anything.

Your belief that evil is an adjective has been brought up by other posters in this thread. And though it is true in a philosophical sense that evil can not be "defined" until there is a tangible action to define it by; yet the Scripture does tell us that one can "sin in the heart" before that sin becomes manifest in the real world. And here I think lays the justification for defining evil as a "conceptual thing" and not strictly an adjective.

that evil could exist as an entity distinct from an application is something I would not give consideration to. To me evil is the absence of God or the absence of righteousness; this brings us to “does God exist” or what is the form called righteousness; does righteousness have a tangible existence; is the Law written on stone.

Now your definition of evil being "absence of God" or "absence of righteousness". I'm not sure what you mean by "absence of righteousness"; but the lake of fire being a place of punishment does constitute "the absence of God"; at least in a certain sense.

Granted that absence isn't complete, but it certainly is the absence of God's mercy and manifest goodness. So would you define the place of eternal punishment as the state of "evil" committed upon "evil". Probably not in the sense of "sin" against "sin", because obviously God can not sin. Could it be defined as the place of "just calamity" (other definition of "evil" - yet being a different Hebrew word) upon sin? That I would agree to be a valid definition.

As for the second philosophical question you raise: "Does God exist"? Just like the philosophical definition of evil has no parameters until an "action" is manifest; "righteousness" is only a concept until there is an entity to attach its definition to. In this sense, out side of any of God's actions, "righteousness" is simply an adjective of His character, because what we understand of God's righteousness is defined by His actions.

So, philosophically we define "evil" by tangible action and "righteousness" as an adjective of an entity's (God's) character. One becomes the "juxtaposed mirror reflection" of the other.

If both righteousness and evil are adjectives, they have to be adjective of some noun. God as an entity is undefinable except for adjectives of His essence; (omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, infinite (having no beginning and no end) immortal, righteous, just etc.). Evil the "noun" being a "ghost reflection" of God; who is "undefinable" except by adjective.

Does that constitute a followable logic? LOL - talk about opening Pandora's Box? I concede to the possibility that you are correct; we may have reached the limits of (created things) cognition here. LOL

the mind does have limitations of function and always needs reference points or axioms to function properly.

True in the sense of, as created entities we are not omniscient. "Theoretically" though, (at least from our perspective) for a mind that is omniscient, the possible reference points are endless. So in reality, this probably does have an answer that is currently beyond our point of reference.

I agree with your last paragraph, yet still not revealed is the difference between good and evil which is probably spiritual in nature; the Law is spiritual.

I think you're on to something here. As God is a spiritual entity, the "opposite reaction to His acton" as a "juxtaposed mirror image of the adjectives we used to describe His essence"; (because we are speaking of something (evil) that only exists in the created realm - i.e. not being inherent in God's nature) would also be spiritual.

So.....

Now this has me wondering about the spiritual created essence of angels, since Satan was the first created entity to fall. God apparently created lesser entities of a "spiritual nature". (Or at least what we would define as "spirit" given our limited point of reference.) Are they a different reflection of some sort of attribute of God such as the material world declares His glory?

(This stuff keeps pouring out of Pandora's Box. LOL)

Well, I suppose it's possible given the limitless nature of God.
 
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sparow

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Your belief that evil is an adjective has been brought up by other posters in this thread. And though it is true in a philosophical sense that evil can not be "defined" until there is a tangible action to define it by; yet the Scripture does tell us that one can "sin in the heart" before that sin becomes manifest in the real world. And here I think lays the justification for defining evil as a "conceptual thing" and not strictly an adjective.



Now your definition of evil being "absence of God" or "absence of righteousness". I'm not sure what you mean by "absence of righteousness"; but the lake of fire being a place of punishment does constitute "the absence of God"; at least in a certain sense.

Granted that absence isn't complete, but it certainly is the absence of God's mercy and manifest goodness. So would you define the place of eternal punishment as the state of "evil" committed upon "evil". Probably not in the sense of "sin" against "sin", because obviously God can not sin. Could it be defined as the place of "just calamity" (other definition of "evil" - yet being a different Hebrew word) upon sin? That I would agree to be a valid definition.

As for the second philosophical question you raise: "Does God exist"? Just like the philosophical definition of evil has no parameters until an "action" is manifest; "righteousness" is only a concept until there is an entity to attach its definition to. In this sense, out side of any of God's actions, "righteousness" is simply an adjective of His character, because what we understand of God's righteousness is defined by His actions.

So, philosophically we define "evil" by tangible action and "righteousness" as an adjective of an entity's (God's) character. One becomes the "juxtaposed mirror reflection" of the other.

If both righteousness and evil are adjectives, they have to be adjective of some noun. God as an entity is undefinable except for adjectives of His essence; (omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, infinite (having no beginning and no end) immortal, righteous, just etc.). Evil the "noun" being a "ghost reflection" of God; who is "undefinable" except by adjective.

Does that constitute a followable logic? LOL - talk about opening Pandora's Box? I concede to the possibility that you are correct; we may have reached the limits of (created things) cognition here. LOL



True in the sense of, as created entities we are not omniscient. "Theoretically" though, (at least from our perspective) for a mind that is omniscient, the possible reference points are endless. So in reality, this probably does have an answer that is currently beyond our point of reference.



I think you're on to something here. As God is a spiritual entity, the "opposite reaction to His acton" as a "juxtaposed mirror image of the adjectives we used to describe His essence"; (because we are speaking of something (evil) that only exists in the created realm - i.e. not being inherent in God's nature) would also be spiritual.

So.....

Now this has me wondering about the spiritual created essence of angels, since Satan was the first created entity to fall. God apparently created lesser entities of a "spiritual nature". (Or at least what we would define as "spirit" given our limited point of reference.) Are they a different reflection of some sort of attribute of God such as the material world declares His glory?

(This stuff keeps pouring out of Pandora's Box. LOL)

Well, I suppose it's possible given the limitless nature of God.


There is the English meaning of evil then there is the Hebrew and Greek words which may mean something different. Evil is a generalisation, Hebrew is more specific and it is interesting to see what the Hebrew could mean. Regarding the knowledge of Good and evil; the word is numbered by strong as 7451 and besides evil can mean bad, adversity, affliction, grief, harm, hurt, misery, nought, mischief, sore, sorrow, trouble, wickedness, and wrong. Good also has many uses or meanings such as; beautiful, best, better, bountiful, sweet, wealth, welfare and pleasure. The scripture seems to refer to the contrast between these two sets.

My perception is that God defines good and evil with his Law; righteousness is keeping the commandments; evil is also defined as what not to do. But keeping the commandments are a line in the sand. It is like the parable of the talents; a person who merely keeps the commandments is the person who buries his talents and has no increase; so what is the nature of the required increase; I suspect it is to do good over and above the call of duty.

I would not call righteousness a concept, which suggests righteousness is someones idea and not God's commandment. Isaiah prophesies in the last days there will be many forms of righteousness, that is besides the righteousness of God; and somewhere else, good will be called evil and evil will be called good.

For human expression, Jesus Christ is a definition of God; the word God is a rank or title like king, prince, Lord or General.

Reality is strange; There is a reality out there or in here, so vast man could not consider it all, and in as far as man considers it we use our senses, eye sight, hearing, smell, taste, sensation and imagination and the experience and memory of these over our lifetime; and then there is the second reality which is our conclusions and reasoning which is not necessarily real in the first sense.
 
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There is the English meaning of evil then there is the Hebrew and Greek words which may mean something different. Evil is a generalisation, Hebrew is more specific and it is interesting to see what the Hebrew could mean. Regarding the knowledge of Good and evil; the word is numbered by strong as 7451 and besides evil can mean bad, adversity, affliction, grief, harm, hurt, misery, nought, mischief, sore, sorrow, trouble, wickedness, and wrong. Good also has many uses or meanings such as; beautiful, best, better, bountiful, sweet, wealth, welfare and pleasure. The scripture seems to refer to the contrast between these two sets.

The Hebrew definition of this particular word "evil" as well as "darkness" was covered in this thread. There are multiple Hebrew words translated as both "evil" and "darkness".

My perception is that God defines good and evil with his Law; righteousness is keeping the commandments; evil is also defined as what not to do. But keeping the commandments are a line in the sand. It is like the parable of the talents; a person who merely keeps the commandments is the person who buries his talents and has no increase; so what is the nature of the required increase; I suspect it is to do good over and above the call of duty.

Again, just as in the philosophical realm, "evil" needs an action to define it by. So as would be with our understanding of "righteousness".

You are correct that the words in Hebrew are defined by the Scripture. It would take some time and probably a good amount of digging to delineate the various definitions though.

I would not call righteousness a concept, which suggests righteousness is someones idea and not God's commandment. Isaiah prophesies in the last days there will be many forms of righteousness, that is besides the righteousness of God; and somewhere else, good will be called evil and evil will be called good.

Yet the original context of the conversation was not speaking of righteousness as a commandment, it was used in context of describing God. God as an internally consistent entity does not need a command to follow.

And this is what's funny about peoples' assertion that Jesus came simply to teach us how to live right. LOL - God doesn't need to prove to Himself or us that He can follow His own commands. The first point would be moot and the second point is that fallen humanity doesn't give a rat's butt to begin with!

So, the incarnation obviously meant more than Jesus just not sinning. Although obviously that's totally consistent with God's character; there was much more to His purpose and point than just to be a good example.

For human expression, Jesus Christ is a definition of God; the word God is a rank or title like king, prince, Lord or General.

How is Jesus Christ merely a "definition" of God? (Are you a modalist?) The word God can not be simply a rank or title, because it defines an entity. The word "king" does not explain to you what a king is. Neither does "Prince", "Lord" or "General". All of those have earthly correspondents. What we generally define "God" as though, does not have an earthly correspondent.

Reality is strange; There is a reality out there or in here, so vast man could not consider it all, and in as far as man considers it we use our senses, eye sight, hearing, smell, taste, sensation and imagination and the experience and memory of these over our lifetime; and then there is the second reality which is our conclusions and reasoning which is not necessarily real in the first sense.

I agree, there is much more just to this created universe than we are capable of perceiving in this current state of mortality.
 
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The Hebrew definition of this particular word "evil" as well as "darkness" was covered in this thread. There are multiple Hebrew words translated as both "evil" and "darkness".



Again, just as in the philosophical realm, "evil" needs an action to define it by. So as would be with our understanding of "righteousness".

You are correct that the words in Hebrew are defined by the Scripture. It would take some time and probably a good amount of digging to delineate the various definitions though.



Yet the original context of the conversation was not speaking of righteousness as a commandment, it was used in context of describing God. God as an internally consistent entity does not need a command to follow.

And this is what's funny about peoples' assertion that Jesus came simply to teach us how to live right. LOL - God doesn't need to prove to Himself or us that He can follow His own commands. The first point would be moot and the second point is that fallen humanity doesn't give a rat's butt to begin with!

So, the incarnation obviously meant more than Jesus just not sinning. Although obviously that's totally consistent with God's character; there was much more to His purpose and point than just to be a good example.



How is Jesus Christ merely a "definition" of God? (Are you a modalist?) The word God can not be simply a rank or title, because it defines an entity. The word "king" does not explain to you what a king is. Neither does "Prince", "Lord" or "General". All of those have earthly correspondents. What we generally define "God" as though, does not have an earthly correspondent.



I agree, there is much more just to this created universe than we are capable of perceiving in this current state of mortality.


I do like this explanation for the fall of Lucifer and the third of the angels. This sure seems to fit with the scriptures on this event. (My apologies if I have already posted this here somewhere)?

Dr. Richard Eby's Near-Death Experience and the Second Coming of Christ
Jesus hesitated as I tried to capture the immensity of his explanations.

"You must understand, my son, that original creation mirrored the composition and perfection of Person-God. All creation vibrated in unison with us! There was total accord and harmony everywhere as the whole creation was resonating with and in God!

"Each separate thing or being thus carried out an appointed task in our scheme for the universe. A heaven-form of music resulted as even the stars sang in their appointed circuits. Here in paradise you are hearing these melodious vibrations directly upon your new mind, undistorted. On Earth you heard distorted sounds through the air waves. Throughout heaven the music flows from my throne, uninterrupted, undefiled, and peace-giving."

Jesus paused again.

"My book tells of the time when Lucifer's rebellion in heaven changed some things. He sought to usurp my Father's throne, assume his position as the most high God, and to rule the universe. For that blasphemy Lucifer was cast from heaven to Earth; in fact, I saw him fall as a bolt of lightning! In a tantrum of hate and rage over being deposed so fast he and his fallen angels disfigured our perfect Earth. It became void and uninhabitable. For punishment befitting his enemy of God, Lucifer was given a new name, Satan, since he was the self-appointed 'adversary' of the Almighty. Anything that God had made, Satan would attempt to destroy from then on. As Lucifer he had been created the highest angel about the throne, one of his assignments and talents being the chief musician in charge of worship and music. In his rebellious anger he set about destroying harmony on and in the Earth from then on. That is why the Earth where he operates now is out of harmony with God's other creations. In my book we call this disharmony 'sin', because it defies God's will that even the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork.

"But be of good cheer, my son. The Father has permitted me to overcome Satan's world system of sin, and to destroy the works of Satan, and to re-establish righteousness in the hearts of my friends. Eventually in his chosen time he will restore all creation as it once was, in him!"
 
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I do like this explanation for the fall of Lucifer and the third of the angels. This sure seems to fit with the scriptures on this event. (My apologies if I have already posted this here somewhere)?

Dr. Richard Eby's Near-Death Experience and the Second Coming of Christ

Only problem here is - if you read my theory and the Scripture; both contradict this guy's "near death experience". Like I've said many times. There's no truth to be sought out in NDE's because they are not Scripture.
 
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Only problem here is - if you read my theory and the Scripture; both contradict this guy's "near death experience". Like I've said many times. There's no truth to be sought out in NDE's because they are not Scripture.

But they are a testimony.....
and testimonies change lives.....

Rev 12:11

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
 
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But they are a testimony.....
and testimonies change lives.....

Rev 12:11

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A false witness does not change lives unto the glory of God.
 
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That is logical.....
but I suspect that you and I might vote differently in the following poll....

Friends of yours watch Heaven Is For Real and ask you about it?

I voted no. He is not a credible witness. It doesn't line up with Scripture and it doesn't point to the God of the Scripture. That sort of testimony does not point anyone to Jesus Christ. That is not what the Scripture is talking about when it speaks of a believer's testimony.

What do believer's testify of? Answer: The death burial and resurrection of Christ and how He has changed them!

Note the verse you claim supports this NDE: "They overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto death." Nothing in that story even comes close to what this verse is saying.
 
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I voted no. He is not a credible witness. It doesn't line up with Scripture and it doesn't point to the God of the Scripture. That sort of testimony does not point anyone to Jesus Christ. That is not what the Scripture is talking about when it speaks of a believer's testimony.

What do believer's testify of? Answer: The death burial and resurrection of Christ and how He has changed them!

Note the verse you claim supports this NDE: "They overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto death." Nothing in that story even comes close to what this verse is saying.

Or... you might be ignorant of scripture yourself.... much as I certainly was back in 1988 when I began to ask and pray for WISDOM with pretty extreme chutzpah.

For the record the following writing will probably offend you profoundly so you might NOT want to read this?

My conversation with the Rabbi.....
 
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I voted no. He is not a credible witness. It doesn't line up with Scripture and it doesn't point to the God of the Scripture. That sort of testimony does not point anyone to Jesus Christ. That is not what the Scripture is talking about when it speaks of a believer's testimony.

What do believer's testify of? Answer: The death burial and resurrection of Christ and how He has changed them!

Note the verse you claim supports this NDE: "They overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto death." Nothing in that story even comes close to what this verse is saying.


If you were to take The Cyrus Challenge your opinions on many subjects might tend to become less rock solid at first....... and then you might just make some serious shifts in your thinking on the likely meaning on many scriptures in the Jewish and Christian Bibles?

That is how it worked out in my own life anyway?!

The Cyrus Challenge Experiment proposed....
 
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Or... you might be ignorant of scripture yourself.... much as I certainly was back in 1988 when I began to ask and pray for WISDOM with pretty extreme chutzpah.

You can accuse me of being ignorant of the Scripture but just because you say so; doesn't mean it's true.

Remember, it was you who came to me telling me (oh how intelligent) I was and that I was the perfect person to help you with your project - and now that I tell you what I think of these matters - suddenly I'm "ignorant of the Scriptures"?

There's a whole lot of warnings in the Scripture about those who use flattery.

What Does the Bible Say About Flattery?

For the record the following writing will probably offend you profoundly so you might NOT want to read this?

I read that thread. You're entitled to do and believe what you want. If you want to believe some rabbi above the Scripture; that's between you and God. I've done what God has commanded me to. I've warned you to seek the truth in the Scriptures alone.

If you were to take The Cyrus Challenge your opinions on many subjects might tend to become less rock solid at first....... and then you might just make some serious shifts in your thinking on the likely meaning on many scriptures in the Jewish and Christian Bibles?

Everything that happens in this world happens with in the providence of God's working out His salvation plan. That still doesn't mean that there isn't retribution to pay for those who inevitably fulfill God's will by they wicked actions.

Where does Cyrus (or Trump) end up in eternity? The unrepentant are certainly capable of doing God's will; but that does't save them; nor does it indicate to us that we should heed their sayings or actions as trustworthy.

Jesus said to Pilate "You'd have no authority over me if it wasn't given unto you by my Father; but those who've delivered me to you are guilty of the greater sin." In the end, Pilate "carried out the plan"; and the Scripture actually says that Pilate was afraid of Jesus. Why? Because who is this man making a stir in Jerusalem who's said to heal the sick and raise the dead? I see this Sanhedrin has brought him to me out of their envy. (Scripture says that too.) My wife tells me to have nothing to do with this just man; yet I'm the "buck stops here" guy. I'm the last stop in the road of who makes the decision. Do I stand for what I know is actual justice; or do I play the politician and let popular opinion determine my actions?

Although we don't know where Pilate's conscience landed in the end; we know what the outcome was!

And Jesus said specifically to the soldiers: "Father forgive them, for they know not who it is they do this to."

Yet the centurion declared. "Truly this was the son of God."

1 Corinthians 2:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

So.... if you feel no need to obey the Scripture. That's not my problem.
 
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You can accuse me of being ignorant of the Scripture but just because you say so; doesn't mean it's true.

Remember, it was you who came to me telling me (oh how intelligent) I was and that I was the perfect person to help you with your project - and now that I tell you what I think of these matters - suddenly I'm "ignorant of the Scriptures"?

There's a whole lot of warnings in the Scripture about those who use flattery.

What Does the Bible Say About Flattery?



I read that thread. You're entitled to do and believe what you want. If you want to believe some rabbi above the Scripture; that's between you and God. I've done what God has commanded me to. I've warned you to seek the truth in the Scriptures alone.



Everything that happens in this world happens with in the providence of God's working out His salvation plan. That still doesn't mean that there isn't retribution to pay for those who inevitably fulfill God's will by they wicked actions.

Where does Cyrus (or Trump) end up in eternity? The unrepentant are certainly capable of doing God's will; but that does't save them; nor does it indicate to us that we should heed their sayings or actions as trustworthy.

Jesus said to Pilate "You'd have no authority over me if it wasn't given unto you by my Father; but those who've delivered me to you are guilty of the greater sin." In the end, Pilate "carried out the plan"; and the Scripture actually says that Pilate was afraid of Jesus. Why? Because who is this man making a stir in Jerusalem who's said to heal the sick and raise the dead? I see this Sanhedrin has brought him to me out of their envy. (Scripture says that too.) My wife tells me to have nothing to do with this just man; yet I'm the "buck stops here" guy. I'm the last stop in the road of who makes the decision. Do I stand for what I know is actual justice; or do I play the politician and let popular opinion determine my actions?

Although we don't know where Pilate's conscience landed in the end; we know what the outcome was!

And Jesus said specifically to the soldiers: "Father forgive them, for they know not who it is they do this to."

Yet the centurion declared. "Truly this was the son of God."

1 Corinthians 2:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

So.... if you feel no need to obey the Scripture. That's not my problem.


"A film devoid of conflict is boring' (R. W.)

i actually still think that you are perfect for what happens next..... just not from the angle that I had hoped at first........


Should Christians support Rebuilding of Jerusalem Third Temple.
 
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You can accuse me of being ignorant of the Scripture but just because you say so; doesn't mean it's true.

Remember, it was you who came to me telling me (oh how intelligent) I was and that I was the perfect person to help you with your project - and now that I tell you what I think of these matters - suddenly I'm "ignorant of the Scriptures"?

There's a whole lot of warnings in the Scripture about those who use flattery.

What Does the Bible Say About Flattery?



I read that thread. You're entitled to do and believe what you want. If you want to believe some rabbi above the Scripture; that's between you and God. I've done what God has commanded me to. I've warned you to seek the truth in the Scriptures alone.



Everything that happens in this world happens with in the providence of God's working out His salvation plan. That still doesn't mean that there isn't retribution to pay for those who inevitably fulfill God's will by they wicked actions.

Where does Cyrus (or Trump) end up in eternity? The unrepentant are certainly capable of doing God's will; but that does't save them; nor does it indicate to us that we should heed their sayings or actions as trustworthy.

Jesus said to Pilate "You'd have no authority over me if it wasn't given unto you by my Father; but those who've delivered me to you are guilty of the greater sin." In the end, Pilate "carried out the plan"; and the Scripture actually says that Pilate was afraid of Jesus. Why? Because who is this man making a stir in Jerusalem who's said to heal the sick and raise the dead? I see this Sanhedrin has brought him to me out of their envy. (Scripture says that too.) My wife tells me to have nothing to do with this just man; yet I'm the "buck stops here" guy. I'm the last stop in the road of who makes the decision. Do I stand for what I know is actual justice; or do I play the politician and let popular opinion determine my actions?

Although we don't know where Pilate's conscience landed in the end; we know what the outcome was!

And Jesus said specifically to the soldiers: "Father forgive them, for they know not who it is they do this to."

Yet the centurion declared. "Truly this was the son of God."

1 Corinthians 2:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

So.... if you feel no need to obey the Scripture. That's not my problem.


I am trying to obey the scriptures but......
I regard near death experience accounts that include a Life Review as the most likely fulfillment of this promise so........

I have gone in a different direction since 1990 than somebody who is skeptical of NDE accounts and feels that most of them could be with Satan.... appearing as an angel of light......

Jhn 16:25

These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
 
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