theoretical Ex Cathedra

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Uphill Battle

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[bible]hebrews 11:1[/bible]
shoot, given your logic, you could apply that to anything.

I have faith (hope for things unseen) that a million dollars is under my pillow.

:D

That doesn't work.
 
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Asinner

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how is this sort of thing verified?

It's very weird to me. On surface value, it looks like things being attributed to be more like Christ, regardless of whether or not it's true.

http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Holy_Relics/index.shtml

Are we not called to be Christ-like? The saints testify to this possibility! Christianity is not a philosophy or idea, but a transformation into Holiness and a putting away of filth. Christ came to restore us back to our original purpose. Communion with Him.

Love,
Christina
 
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Uphill Battle

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http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Holy_Relics/index.shtml

Are we not called to be Christ-like? The saints testify to this possibility! Christianity is not a philosophy or idea, but a transformation into Holiness and a putting away of filth. Christ came to restore us back to our original purpose. Communion with Him.

Love,
Christina
Christ like in action. That does not mean we receive the same as he, such as no decompostion, etc....

now, what is it about the mummified remains of a man makes it holy?




Here is an example of another corpse that has no putrifaction. Not a saint of the church, however.
 
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Asinner

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Christ like in action. That does not mean we receive the same as he, such as no decompostion, etc....

Christ not only received no decomposition, but a Resurrection. As will we, be resurrected on the day of Judgement. What does it mean to be Christ-like only in action? I have met a Holy man. Divine Grace was evident without him opening his mouth. His eyes were brighter than the sun and it was as though he was already in Heaven with Christ and the angels.


now, what is it about the mummified remains of a man makes it holy?


From the article:
The holiness of the Saints—both the holiness of their souls and of their bodies—derives from their zealous grace- and virtue-bestowing lives in the Body of the Church of Christ, of the God-Man. In this sense, holiness completely envelopes the human person—the entire soul and body and all that enters into the mystical composition of the human body. The holiness of the Saints does not hold forth only in their souls, but it necessarily extends to their bodies; so it is that both the body and the soul of a saint are sanctified.

Love,
Christina
 
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PassthePeace1

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Christ like in action. That does not mean we receive the same as he, such as no decompostion, etc....

now, what is it about the mummified remains of a man makes it holy?


http://exchanges.state.gov/culprop/peru/human/sect.htm

Here is an example of another corpse that has no putrifaction. Not a saint of the church, however.


Most of ours look better..^_^ , oh sure we have a few leathery looking ones, but many are plump...:)
 
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Uphill Battle

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Christ not only received no decomposition, but a Resurrection. As will we, be resurrected on the day of Judgement. What does it mean to be Christ-like only in action? I have met a Holy man. Divine Grace was evident without him opening his mouth. His eyes were brighter than the sun and it was as though he was already in Heaven with Christ and the angels.
don't suppose you have a photo of HIM.



From the article:
The holiness of the Saints—both the holiness of their souls and of their bodies—derives from their zealous grace- and virtue-bestowing lives in the Body of the Church of Christ, of the God-Man. In this sense, holiness completely envelopes the human person—the entire soul and body and all that enters into the mystical composition of the human body. The holiness of the Saints does not hold forth only in their souls, but it necessarily extends to their bodies; so it is that both the body and the soul of a saint are sanctified.

Love,
Christina
then tell me how the same conditions can be found in the corpses of others not even remotely associated with the Church?

makes no sense.

I have extreme skepticism for this. WE are promised no such thing on this earth, in fact scripture states that we are in tents, not mansions. that our FUTURE imperishable bodies, post resurrection are what we will recieve.... not in these shells we walk around in now.
 
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Asinner

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don't suppose you have a photo of HIM.

Yes I do. :)




then tell me how the same conditions can be found in the corpses of others not even remotely associated with the Church?

makes no sense.

They are not in the same condition. There is no fragrant myhr flowing from that body you showed.

Love,
Christina
 
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Uphill Battle

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Yes I do. :)






They are not in the same condition. There is no fragrant myhr flowing from that body you showed.

Love,
Christina
post it then.



no fragrant Myhr? how can that be asserted from a photo?

And, of course, the "relics" have been tucked away again, there is no way to verify the scent of Chrism. (which, of course, could be manufactured anywho.)
 
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sunlover1

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so that we don't have hundreds of little interpeters argueing about what the real intended meaning of Scripture is. You know, kinda sorta like what happens here hundreds of times every day....^_^

That means nothing.
Shoot, even the Apostles who were taught
face to face by Jesus Christ Himself, got
things wrong.

If your pope or Jesus Himself
told 20 people the same thing
they because they are human, can hear
it differently.

If 20 people see an accident, you will get20
different eyewitness accounts.

sunlover
 
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Asinner

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post it then.



no fragrant Myhr? how can that be asserted from a photo?

And, of course, the "relics" have been tucked away again, there is no way to verify the scent of Chrism. (which, of course, could be manufactured anywho.)

There are many, many testimonies to uncorrupt bodies with fragrant myrh flowing from them from the first centuries of Christianity to today. I have smelled the bones of one saint, and it was beautiful! It most certainly has been verified, Uphill Battle. Many Christians have witnessed the miracles you doubt! Do not be like Thomas. Miracles are still present with His Church. I am saddened that you choose to believe they do not exist.

As for posting a picture of someone who is Holy . . . it is a pearl to me. Perhaps if I believed your heart was opened to seeing him for what he is and not making a mockery of it with your questioning unbelief, I would post it.

Love,
Christina
 
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simonthezealot

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You can't be serious can you? I just look at the myriad of conflicting teachings in "Christianity" and understand the flaw in your premise. Jesus never endorsed unfettered sprituality. He instructed His church to go out, make disciples and teach what He commanded. Not what He recommended, or what He thought was a pretty neat idea. Christ gave commandments and entrusted their propagation to the Church.

You can't be serious can you?

I just look at the myriad of scripture conflicting doctrine in "Catholocism" and understand the flaw in your premise.

Your under the false premise that your church is "THE" church in and of itself!
 
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Uphill Battle

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There are many, many testimonies to uncorrupt bodies with fragrant myrh flowing from them from the first centuries of Christianity to today. I have smelled the bones of one saint, and it was beautiful! It most certainly has been verified, Uphill Battle. Many Christians have witnessed the miracles you doubt! Do not be like Thomas. Miracles are still present with His Church. I am saddened that you choose to believe they do not exist.

As for posting a picture of someone who is Holy . . . it is a pearl to me. Perhaps if I believed your heart was opened to seeing him for what he is and not making a mockery of it with your questioning unbelief, I would post it.

Love,
Christina
ah, so you'd be casting a pearl before swine. Fair enough.
 
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ScottBot

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You can't be serious can you?

I just look at the myriad of scripture conflicting doctrine in "Catholocism" and understand the flaw in your premise.

Your under the false premise that your church is "THE" church in and of itself!
AN example or two would be nice, or should I take your word for it that 5 years of study on the CHurch that I spend before recommitting myself to it was just wasted effort? Wait....no, then YOU would be my pope. which in and of itself would be a contradiction to the very thing you are talking about.
 
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Giver

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I would like to share a few areas where I believe the Roman Catholic Church has failed to comply with the Word of God.


(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Matthew 23:8-12) “You, however, must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor must you allow yourselves to be called teachers, for you have only one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you must be your
servant. Anyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and anyone who humbles himself will be exalted.”

(Luke 6:27-29) “But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”


(Luke 6:30-35) “Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you. Treat others, as you would like them to treat you. If you love those who love you, what thanks can you expect? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do food to you, what thanks can you expect? For even sinners do that much. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive what thanks can you expect? Even sinners lend to sinners to get back the same amount. (How did the church ever justify saying usury was excessive interest?) Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.


(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who
is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”
 
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Splayd

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I would like to share a few areas where I believe the Roman Catholic Church has failed to comply with the Word of God.
I'm sure most of these are relevant for all of us in some way or another. That's sad and in no way diminshes the seriousness, but be careful that you don't point out the speck while ignoring the log. Let's look at them in more detail.

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”
This is certainly a tricky one for most of us, regardless of our affiliation to a particular church, but it's certainly how we are to act towards our enemies. Imagine then the extent to which we are to love our brothers and sisters in Christ. After all, we're to be known by our love for each other, are we not? Incidentally - I wonder if any of the Catholics reading your posts have felt persecuted and whether they've responded by praying for you. I suspect some may have, but if they haven't, this serves as a great reminder.

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance
I'm not sure what your point is here. Perhaps you could illustrate how you are getting it right that I might better understand how they are getting it wrong.

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”
I'll assume you haven't done this either. Perhaps you could make some positive suggestions and encouraging posts about how to live in poverty and the blessings you've received as a consequence. I'm sure we'd benefit much more from that, then simply pointing out that some others are getting it wrong.


(Matthew 23:8-12) “You, however, must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor must you allow yourselves to be called teachers, for you have only one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you must be your
servant. Anyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and anyone who humbles himself will be exalted.”
I'd suggest that if your understanding of these verses is correct, it's just as big an issue for many Protestants. I don't know how many Doctors of Theology or Reverends I've met along my journeys.

(Luke 6:27-29) “But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.”
This is another one where I'm not actually sure what the implication is but I'd agree that most (perhaps all) of us could be better at this.


(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”
I confess a great respect for you here. I wish I could do what you've obviously done and give up all my possessions. It's certainly commendable. I assume you're using the internet at a local library or uni or something like that?

(Luke 6:30-35) “Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you. Treat others, as you would like them to treat you. If you love those who love you, what thanks can you expect? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do food to you, what thanks can you expect? For even sinners do that much. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive what thanks can you expect? Even sinners lend to sinners to get back the same amount. (How did the church ever justify saying usury was excessive interest?) Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.
I guess this is the manner in which you surrendered all your possessions? Perhaps you could share some guidelines and practical advice. Did you just go with the "first in, best dressed" approach when giving away your stuff or did you seek those most in need?


(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who
is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”
Sound advice indeed. I wonder if it might be the reason Catholics have closed communion?

Peace
 
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Giver

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Splayd, I don’t believe this thread is about me, if I follow the Word of God or not. No! It is about what the Catholic Church teaches and practices, or doesn’t teach and practices.

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

My point here is that Jesus tells us not to even offer the wicked man any resistance. Now you tell me does not the church teach a “Just War”?

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

When have you ever heard the church teach against savings or saving up for your retirement?

(Matthew 23:8-12) “You, however, must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor must you allow yourselves to be called teachers, for you have only one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you must be your
servant. Anyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and anyone who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Here is a scripture that is so plain, but is totally ignored, by the church.

(Luke 6:27-29) “But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

Does the church believe Luke got it wrong? It sure doesn’t teach this.


(Luke 6:30-35) “Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you. Treat others, as you would like them to treat you. If you love those who love you, what thanks can you expect? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do food to you, what thanks can you expect? For even sinners do that much. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive what thanks can you expect? Even sinners lend to sinners to get back the same amount. (How did the church ever justify saying usury was excessive interest?) Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.


(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who
is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

The Bishops sure should really take this scripture to heart. If they had, those priests who did those horrible things would not have been around for so long.

 
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Uphill Battle

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Splayd, I don’t believe this thread is about me, if I follow the Word of God or not. No! It is about what the Catholic Church teaches and practices, or doesn’t teach and practices.

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

My point here is that Jesus tells us not to even offer the wicked man any resistance. Now you tell me does not the church teach a “Just War”?

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

When have you ever heard the church teach against savings or saving up for your retirement?

(Matthew 23:8-12) “You, however, must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor must you allow yourselves to be called teachers, for you have only one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you must be your
servant. Anyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and anyone who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Here is a scripture that is so plain, but is totally ignored, by the church.

(Luke 6:27-29) “But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

Does the church believe Luke got it wrong? It sure doesn’t teach this.


(Luke 6:30-35) “Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you. Treat others, as you would like them to treat you. If you love those who love you, what thanks can you expect? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do food to you, what thanks can you expect? For even sinners do that much. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive what thanks can you expect? Even sinners lend to sinners to get back the same amount. (How did the church ever justify saying usury was excessive interest?) Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.


(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who
is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

The Bishops sure should really take this scripture to heart. If they had, those priests who did those horrible things would not have been around for so long.

Actually, this thread isn't about what the Catholic church practices or teaches either. go back and read the OP.

 
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ScottBot

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Splayd, I don’t believe this thread is about me, if I follow the Word of God or not. No! It is about what the Catholic Church teaches and practices, or doesn’t teach and practices.

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

My point here is that Jesus tells us not to even offer the wicked man any resistance. Now you tell me does not the church teach a “Just War”?

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

When have you ever heard the church teach against savings or saving up for your retirement?

(Matthew 23:8-12) “You, however, must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor must you allow yourselves to be called teachers, for you have only one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you must be your
servant. Anyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and anyone who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Here is a scripture that is so plain, but is totally ignored, by the church.

(Luke 6:27-29) “But I say this to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

Does the church believe Luke got it wrong? It sure doesn’t teach this.


(Luke 6:30-35) “Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you. Treat others, as you would like them to treat you. If you love those who love you, what thanks can you expect? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do food to you, what thanks can you expect? For even sinners do that much. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive what thanks can you expect? Even sinners lend to sinners to get back the same amount. (How did the church ever justify saying usury was excessive interest?) Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.


(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who
is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

The Bishops sure should really take this scripture to heart. If they had, those priests who did those horrible things would not have been around for so long.
If you have an issue with the pederasty scandal in the Catholic Church, why don't you go start a separate thread on it in Hamartiology.

2.8 No Off-Topic

You will not 'de-rail' or 'hijack' threads by making posts unrelated to the original post or other posts in the thread. You will not create threads unrelated to the topic of a forum or subforum.
 
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Giver

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If you have an issue with the pederasty scandal in the Catholic Church, why don't you go start a separate thread on it in Hamartiology.

2.8 No Off-Topic

You will not 'de-rail' or 'hijack' threads by making posts unrelated to the original post or other posts in the thread. You will not create threads unrelated to the topic of a forum or subforum.
Wow! I stepped on somebody’s toes. I am sorry, please forgive me. You may be right I will take your advice and start another thread.
 
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Wow! I stepped on somebody’s toes. I am sorry, please forgive me. You may be right I will take your advice and start another thread.
That's all I asked. I'll be glad to respond in there. This thread was headed in the wrong direction from the OP and I wanted to try to get it back on track. Thanks. God bless. :)
 
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