theoretical Ex Cathedra

[TwistTim]

Forgive me, but what is the purpose of this post? To me, you appear to be casting judgement upon the Catholic Church. If this is so, that the CC is the harlot, then you as a protestant are her illegitimate child.

In Grief,
Christina

as a Baptist, we were not formed in protest of the Catholic church, rather to faithfully study the Word of God, not the words of men, so we are not the children of the Catholic church, illegitimate or otherwise... also many modern groups are not formed in protest to the Catholic church... but to other churches....

if someone is Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Anglican or one of those types, then they can be considered children of the Catholic Church, as those were formed in protest to Catholic teachings...

Please release it's more than just "Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant"

 

[ScottBot]

You mean the Scriptures you posted and highlighted all pretty-like with no real context? You'll have to tell us in your own words.

The Word judges the Church just as He judges you. Then again, your own personal view of the Catholic Church and how it squares with your personal interpretation of Scripture really doesn't keep me up awake a night.

 

[ScottBot]

as a Baptist, we were not formed in protest of the Catholic church, rather to faithfully study the Word of God, not the words of men, so we are not the children of the Catholic church, illegitimate or otherwise... also many modern groups are not formed in protest to the Catholic church... but to other churches....

if someone is Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Anglican or one of those types, then they can be considered children of the Catholic Church, as those were formed in protest to Catholic teachings...

Please release it's more than just "Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant"

Please. If the Protestant reformation hadn't happened, none of the other stuff would have either. King Henry only broke from Rome amidst the chaos created by Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli. The even funnier thing is that Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and Henry VIII all had immense dislike for each other.

 

[simonthezealot]

Please. If the Protestant reformation hadn't happened, none of the other stuff would have either. King Henry only broke from Rome amidst the chaos created by Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli. The even funnier thing is that Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and Henry VIII all had immense dislike for each other.

You've nothing to back this silly sweeping statement!

 

[Asinner]

as a Baptist, we were not formed in protest of the Catholic church, rather to faithfully study the Word of God, not the words of men, so we are not the children of the Catholic church, illegitimate or otherwise... also many modern groups are not formed in protest to the Catholic church... but to other churches....

if someone is Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Anglican or one of those types, then they can be considered children of the Catholic Church, as those were formed in protest to Catholic teachings...

Please release it's more than just "Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant"

Protestantism is woven from the same cloth as Catholicism. Certainly most of protestants have departed much further and as you said continues to grow farther and farther away from Catholicism (churches protesting other churches protesting other churches . . . ); however, this still does not negate the beginnings of protestantism or from whence it came.

Love,
Christina

 

[Tonks]

as a Baptist, we were not formed in protest of the Catholic church, rather to faithfully study the Word of God, not the words of men, so we are not the children of the Catholic church, illegitimate or otherwise... also many modern groups are not formed in protest to the Catholic church... but to other churches....

The sufficiency and primacy of Scripture was (is) a uniquely Reformation idea. Correct, again, that Baptists really are not like Lutherans, Anglicans et al. However, the manner in which the study of the written word is approached is a uniquely Reformation idea. While many modern groups are not "children of the Church" they are somewhat indebted to the Reform movement insofar as the theology developed then underpins the "modern" movement (ca 500 years ago or so).

 

[ScottBot]

You've nothing to back this silly sweeping statement!

If you have paid attention one bit to anything I've ever said, you'd know that I am not prone to blind, sweeping generalizations. Pick up a history book regarding the European Renaissance, you'll learn a thing or two.

 

[Tonks]

You've nothing to back this silly sweeping statement!

The lack of evidence for these theological ideas speaks for itself. Beyond discussing the historical, political and religions reasons for the Reformation a critical study of the time proceeding WRT divergent theology is a relatively blank canvas.

It really isn't up to Catholics to disprove that these ideas did not exist (as there is a lack of evidence) but it is up to those that support such a reading of history to prove the affirmative based on a lack of evidence.

 

[sunlover1]

The sufficiency and primacy of Scripture was (is) a uniquely Reformation idea.

Uniquely a God idea rather:

What we're to live by:
Primacy:
Luke 4:4
4 And Jesus answered him, saying,
It is written,
That man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word of God.

Seems VERY important here:
Luke 8:21
21 And he answered and said unto them,
My mother and my brethren are these which
hear the word of God, and do it.

Jesus's words:
John 10:35
35 If he called them gods,
unto whom the word of God came,
and the scripture cannot be broken;

What happened when they were
filled wiht the Holy Ghost...
Acts 4:31
31 And when they had prayed,
the place was shaken where they were assembled together;
and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,
and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Acts 19:20
20 So mightily grew the word of God
and prevailed.

Our Weapon which we're told to take up.
Ephesians 6:17
17 And take the helmet of salvation,
and the sword of the Spirit,
which is the word of God

Hebrews 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that
the worlds were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen were
not made of things which do appear.

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful,
and sharper than any twoedged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder
of soul and spirit,
and of the joints and marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts
and intents of the heart.

 

[Tonks]

Uniquely a God idea rather:

What we're to live by:
Primacy:

Please demonstrate where in the first 1500 years of Christian history the above interpretation was consistently applied and where a body of theology that supported such interpretation can be found.

 

[ScottBot]

Uniquely a God idea rather:

What we're to live by:
Primacy:
Luke 4:4
4 And Jesus answered him, saying,
It is written,
That man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word of God.

Seems VERY important here:
Luke 8:21
21 And he answered and said unto them,
My mother and my brethren are these which
hear the word of God, and do it.

Jesus's words:
John 10:35
35 If he called them gods,
unto whom the word of God came,
and the scripture cannot be broken;

What happened when they were
filled wiht the Holy Ghost...
Acts 4:31
31 And when they had prayed,
the place was shaken where they were assembled together;
and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,
and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Acts 19:20
20 So mightily grew the word of God
and prevailed.

Our Weapon which we're told to take up.
Ephesians 6:17
17 And take the helmet of salvation,
and the sword of the Spirit,
which is the word of God

Hebrews 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that
the worlds were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen were
not made of things which do appear.

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful,
and sharper than any twoedged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder
of soul and spirit,
and of the joints and marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts
and intents of the heart.

Those passages talk about the importance of Scripture, nbut hardly convey the sufficiency of it.

 

[Asinner]

Uniquely a God idea rather:

Sunlover ,

No one disagrees that Holy Scriptures are not Truth. Many of us, though, know that Truth transcends the written word. I would ask any protestant to point me in the direction of the manifestation of the Holy Scriptures. Where are the Holy Scriptures being made known? Where are those Christians who have attained perfection? Where is there Virtue and Grace? There is where Christ is.

Love,
Christina

 

[Uphill Battle]

Sunlover ,

No one disagrees that Holy Scriptures are not Truth. Many of us, though, know that Truth transcends the written word. I would ask any protestant to point me in the direction of the manifestation of the Holy Scriptures. Where are the Holy Scriptures being made known? Where are those Christians who have attained perfection? Where is there Virtue and Grace? There is where Christ is.

Love,
Christina

you mean Heaven? There are no Christians who have obtained perfection on this earth.

 

[ScottBot]

Vatican II's Dei Verbum 2.10 (quoted by the Catechism in CCC 86) explicitly says that the Church's Magisterium is the servant of the Word of God. And while I know that Catholicism doesn't teaching that only Scripture is the Word of God, it is certainly true that Scripture is the Word of God.

No educated, self-respecting Catholic would disagree with this. The difference being that the Church considers the Magisterium to be a servant of the word, whereas, in many cases, people make the word a servant to their private interpretation of it, particularly when they begin their dissertations with pithy little quotables like, "Scripture clearly states..." or "The bible teaches us that....."

 

[Uphill Battle]

No educated, self-respecting Catholic would disagree with this. The difference being that the Church considers the Magisterium to be a servant of the word, whereas, in many cases, people make the word a servant to their private interpretation of it, particularly when they begin their dissertations with pithy little quotables like, "Scripture clearly states..." or "The bible teaches us that....."

as opposed to "the Church has always taught...."?

 

[sunlover1]

Those passages talk about the importance of Scripture, nbut hardly convey the sufficiency of it.

Sufficient for what?

(It better be sufficient if Jesus told us
to live by it!)

 

[ScottBot]

you mean Heaven? There are no Christians who have obtained perfection on this earth.

Jesus, "Be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

So, Jesus gave us an unobtainable goal?

What about, "For men, it is impossible, but with God, all things are possible."

 

[simonthezealot]

Those passages talk about the importance of Scripture, nbut hardly convey the sufficiency of it.

These do!

Psalm 19:7-11

7 The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.
8 The precepts of the LORD are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the LORD are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is pure,
enduring forever.
The ordinances of the LORD are sure
and altogether righteous.
10 They are more precious than gold,
than much pure gold;
they are sweeter than honey,
than honey from the comb.
11 By them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_vers...blegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2

2 Timothy 3:15-17

15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[Asinner]

you mean Heaven? There are no Christians who have obtained perfection on this earth.

There are MANY, who have achieved perfection. This is our purpose in life, communion with God. I met one such man several years ago.

Love,
Christina

 

[ScottBot]

as opposed to "the Church has always taught...."?

Who did the Church get the mandate to teach from?

(its at the end of the Gospel of Matthew, in case you're looking)