Theonomy

JM

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"Dr. Van Til taught us that "There is no alternative but that of theonomy and autonomy" (Christian-Theistic Ethics, p. 134). Every ethical decision assumes some final authority or standard, and that will either be self-law ("autonomy") or God's law ("theonomy"). While unbelievers consider themselves the ultimate authority in determining moral right or wrong, believers acknowledge that God alone has that position and prerogative. The position which has come to be labeled "theonomy" today thus holds that the word of the Lord is the sole, supreme, and unchallengeable standard for the actions and attitudes of all men in all areas of life. Our obligation to keep God's commands cannot be judged by any extrascriptural standard, such as whether its specific requirements (when properly interpreted) are congenial to past traditions or modern feelings and practices." Greg Bahnsen from What Is "Theonomy"?

Like many of you theonomy was presented to me as something negative and to be avoided but over the past 20 plus years as a student of theology I've moved from antinomianism to (general equity) theonomist. Books by Rushdoony, Boot, Bahnsen are all excellent resources but I would suggest a simple reading of the Bible with a good concordance will take you most if not all of the way to theonomy. One cannot read Psalm 119 or Paul discussing the Law and not be struck at how beautiful the Law is. Why? Because the Law of God is the expression of His attributes, His perfections and His holy, divine character.

The following video is an introduction to theonomy every Christian especially Reformed Christians should watch.


Yours in the Lord,

jm
 

Hazelelponi

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Those who believe in theonomy frighten me... the Bible gives zero indication that God's law should be forced on non-Christians against their will...

While the Christian has a King (Jesus the Messiah) and are citizens of His Kingdom, the Gospel is to be shared in love, not forced.

Paul the Apostle said in 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 that we need not concern ourselves with the actions of those outside the church, but rather, our job is to make sure we are minding how we, as Christians, are following the examples before us in Christ and the Apostles, with the aid of God's Holy Spirit. In short - let the church judge the church. Those outside the church is God's purview alone, short of us sharing the Gospel in love as we show a living faith to the world through our actions.

Democracy is found nowhere in Scripture, so it's difficult to say what our responsibility as Christians is here other than to vote according to our own conscious, allowing faith to guide us without becoming the Christian version of Da'esh...

I do think this is something every true Christian should discuss in this hour, as it's important for us to make biblical decisions now in our hour of trial.

But Christ's Kingdom is not of this world, setting one up in His name seems to me to be a false understanding of Scripture that ends only in sin.

I'll watch your video later, and then we can discuss exact points.
 
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JM

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Those who believe in theonomy frighten me... the Bible gives zero indication that God's law should be forced on non-Christians against their will...

I'm sorry I frighten you Hazelelponi but I assure you God's word should be brought to bear on every aspect of life including society. Modern evangelicals including Calvinists seem to forget the Second Use of the Law (I blame the influence of Dispensational Premillennialism) and neglect to influence culture scripturally. A note from the Reformation Study edited by Sproul, "A second function, the “civil use,” is to restrain evil. Though the law cannot change the heart, it can to some extent inhibit lawlessness by its threats of judgement, especially when backed by a civil code that administers punishment for proven offenses (Deut. 13:6-11; 19:16-21; Rom. 13:3, 4). Thus it secures civil order, and serves to protect the righteous from the unjust."

So, you would rather secularist society continue to abort babies? By giving up the public square you are essentially removing Christianity from society which is a secular belief, not a Christian one.

"One use of the law is, to inform us of the mind and will of God; it is a transcript of his holy nature and unchangeable will; and therefore is itself holy just and good,(Romans 7:12) as it must needs be, since it comes from him; it teaches us what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God; it points out to us our duty both to God and man; what should be done or not done by us; it directs us to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, and strength; and to love our neighbour as ourselves; which, in a few words, contain the sum and substance of it.

Another use of the law is, to convince of sin: for by the law is the knowledge of sin; (Romans 3:20) of sin original and actual, of the sin of our hearts and nature, as well as of the sin of our lips, lives and actions: I had not known sin, says the apostle but by the law: for I had not known lust, that is, known it to, be a sin, and sinful, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. (Romans 7:7) Not that the law can or does of itself, really and thoroughly, spiritually and savingly, convince of sin; for this is the work of the Spirit of God: but then the Spirit of God makes use of the law to work in men thorough convictions of their sinful, lost, and miserable condition by nature.

Again; Another use of the law, not made void by the doctrine of faith, is, to be as a glass to believers themselves; to behold therein by the light of the divine Spirit, the deformity of their souls by sin, and the imperfection of their obedience; whereby they grow out of love with themselves, and quit all dependence on their own righteousness for justification. So the apostle Paul, comparing himself, his heart and services, with the pure and holy law of God, thus expresses himself; We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin. (Romans 7:14) In this view of things the psalmist David was able to make such an observation as this; I have seen an end of all perfection: thy commandment is exceeding broad; (Psalm 119:96) that is ” I see that the law of God is so large and broad, and my obedience to it so short of it, and so imperfect, that I despair of ever attaining perfection by the deeds of it.” It was, no doubt by the light of the Spirit, and as beholding herself in the glass of the law, that the church saw, and so said, that her righteousness was as filthy rags, and herself as an unclean thing. (Isaiah 64:6) Hence,

There is a farther use of the law to believers, and that is, to make the righteousness of Christ more dear and valuable to them for when they see how imperfect their own righteousness is, and how far short of the demands of the righteous law of God their obedience comes; and when they behold what an everlasting righteousness Christ has brought in; how perfect it is in itself, and how agreeable to the law; insomuch that it is not only fulfilled by it, but magnified and made honourable; they are at once delighted with it, fix upon it, and desire to be found in Christ not having their own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ; the righteousness which is of God by faith. (Philippians 3:9)" - John Gill

Please keep in mind that scripture places everyone under a covenant. Believers are under the New Covenant of Grace while unbelievers are condemned by the old covenant of Law, either way, we are in covenant to God. Without this understanding Romans 2 makes little sense. It would also invalidate the Cross, Christ died on the Cross as a substitutionary atonement for our Law breaking, it makes little sense to say there is no Law under which unbelievers will be condemned what you have to do is bring those ideas together. Law and Grace are not enemies to the Christian only to unrepentant sinners.

While the Christian has a King (Jesus the Messiah) and are citizens of His Kingdom, the Gospel is to be shared in love, not forced.

No one is taking about forcing non-Christians to 'believe' the Gospel and you, as a confessed Calvinist should know better. The Law restrains evil and not does force conversion. You are relying on a theonomistic bogeyman trope and in so doing prefer unbelievers to 'force' their beliefs on us.

Paul the Apostle said in 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 that we need not concern ourselves with the actions of those outside the church, but rather, our job is to make sure we are minding how we, as Christians, are following the examples before us in Christ and the Apostles, with the aid of God's Holy Spirit. In short - let the church judge the church. Those outside the church is God's purview alone, short of us sharing the Gospel in love as we show a living faith to the world through our actions.

You are misusing the passage. Paul is explaining how sexual immorality affects the church, he is concerned with the holiness of the church, not that we shouldn't concern ourselves with the actions of the world because Paul judges them as sinners in the very passage! Paul names societies sins but that isn't the point of the passage.

Democracy is found nowhere in Scripture, so it's difficult to say what our responsibility as Christians is here other than to vote according to our own conscious, allowing faith to guide us without becoming the Christian version of Da'esh...

'Let our conscience be your guide.' - Jiminy Cricket

Your conscience needs to be informed with scripture and even the unbelieving, pagan, unrepentant sinner can have the Law brought to bear on their conscience so they will be guided rightly. What frightens me is how many Christians fail to understanding that in denying the Third Use of the Law they have allowed a multitude of sins into the public square but, 'how dare we infringe upon someones conscience!' We should make abortion illegal even if the parents are committing murder. See my point?

I do think this is something every true Christian should discuss in this hour, as it's important for us to make biblical decisions now in our hour of trial.

We have allowed the secularists the place we use to inhabit and God is judging us for it. The Gates of Hell will not prevail but that doesn't mean 'Merica only' but the church in general. We have been unfaithful with what we have been given.

But Christ's Kingdom is not of this world, setting one up in His name seems to me to be a false understanding of Scripture that ends only in sin.

The Bible asserts that Christ is enthroned now and is ruling and reigning now, Christ is King over Heaven AND earth. That means the fulfillment of this prayer found in Psalm 72 takes place in history, that Christ is fulfilling His promises now. Because the Gospel has gone into literally all the world the world is a better place. Why? Because the Gospel influences where it takes root and that means it shows up in real, tangible ways. With the spread of Christianity due to the Missions Movement poverty is down, education is up, GMO's are helping to solve the world hunger problem and yes, the Gospel is being accepted and preached throughout the world.

Remember, "on earth as it is in heaven..."

I'll watch your video later, and then we can discuss exact points.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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JM

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I wanted to expand on this a little.

'Let our conscience be your guide.' - Jiminy Cricket

Your conscience needs to be informed with scripture and even the unbelieving, pagan, unrepentant sinner can have the Law brought to bear on their conscience so they will be guided rightly. What frightens me is how many Christians fail to understanding that in denying the Third Use of the Law they have allowed a multitude of sins into the public square but, 'how dare we infringe upon someones conscience!' We should make abortion illegal even if the parents are committing murder. See my point?

One hundred years ago society in general was informed by the Law of God and had civil laws based on scripture. This is why many sins that are legal today where outlawed then. I will not name each sin but you know what I'm talking about. I'm under no delusion that one hundred years ago we had more regenerate Christians but we can point to the restraining effect the Law had on society. That's the point.

It's either God's Law or 'something' else.


Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I wanted to expand on this a little.

One hundred years ago society in general was informed by the Law of God and had civil laws based on scripture. This is why many sins that are legal today where outlawed then. I will not name each sin but you know what I'm talking about. I'm under no delusion that one hundred years ago we had more regenerate Christians but we can point to the restraining effect the Law had on society. That's the point.

It's either God's Law or 'something' else.



Yours in the Lord,

jm

One hundred years ago society in general was informed by the Law of God???

While like many of my fellow Christians I wish our nation would be and could be thoroughly Christian, I think it's highly debatable that the U.S. has EVER been specifically Christian. Think of all of the 'nice white, respectable Christian men' who 100 years ago would sit in the pews of local churches across America...but then would covertly sneak off to K.K.K. meetings or rallies ... and such.

Yeah, I'm not so sure just how 'Christian' the U.S. ever has been or ever really could be. And Theonomy isn't going to help. It'll take more than that.
 
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JM

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Still new to this, but it seems that it comes down to this. Is Christ king of just the church, or is He king of everything?

Exactly. Why pray, "on earth as it is in heaven...?"

The problem is, and even Mark Dever is guilty of this, people will not look into theonomy and present straw-men only ^_^ The video deals with the objections presented but the posters commenting haven't watched it.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Exactly. Why pray, "on earth as it is in heaven...?"

The problem is, and even Mark Dever is guilty of this, people will not look into theonomy and present straw-men only ^_^ The video deals with the objections presented but the posters commenting haven't watched it.

I watched the video. However, I will decline further comments about either it or your OP focus since this is a thread situated in a specific denominational grouping. So, rather than offer a counterpoint, I'll just say, "Over and out!" :cool:
 
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Hazelelponi

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I'm sorry I frighten you Hazelelponi but I assure you God's word should be brought to bear on every aspect of life

As far as frightening me it's no big deal. I'm trying to get into the right frame of mind for this discussion and will get back...
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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Calvinists in America are, historically, theonomists. Before them, the Catholics and other Orthodox were the predominant theonomists. I could point to how badly such theonomy worked under the Catholics, et al., with all of their abuses, but the fact remains that all laws are based on some manner of morality. In fact, the purpose of any law is to enforce that morality upon people who, by their very actions, demonstrate that they are unbelievers of that morality. Yes, laws are how we impose our beliefs on you. That's what they're for.

The only question is whose morality decides these laws. They can either be based on the absolute morality of God, in part or in whole, or they can be based on something irrelevant and subjective.

Unfortunately, not all laws made in the name of God are really of God.
 
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JM

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What happens when you allow the State to decide what is right and moral...you get modern child sacrifices to Molech and don't get it twisted, the far reaching aspects of politicized abortion strikes at the heart of God's creation, watch and learn.

"Modern Child Sacrifice This episode will leave you mind blown as we take an in depth look at the demonic statist religion behind @b0rti0n. You will see shocking evidence of how modern child sacrifice relates directly to global totalitarianism. However, we will also look at the supremacy of Christ, and we will see how @b0rti0n will be successfully ended once and for all through the public proclamation of the gospel and the application of biblical law."


Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Till Schilling

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Don’t really have time to watch these very long videos, but I would be interested to hear more about those theonomists‘ ideas of practical application. Any other, more approachable resources?

A first glimpse this seems pretty close to the natural law approach to public laws and morality. So not a new idea. But to my mind the chance to change public laws is continuously decreasing in an ever more neopagan society.
 
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JM

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Don’t really have time to watch these very long videos, but I would be interested to hear more about those theonomists‘ ideas of practical application. Any other, more approachable resources?

A first glimpse this seems pretty close to the natural law approach to public laws and morality. So not a new idea. But to my mind the chance to change public laws is continuously decreasing in an ever more neopagan society.

Common examples:

When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, so that you will not bring bloodguilt on your house if anyone falls from it. Deut 22:8

The general principle drawn from the text is that a person would be guilty if someone were harmed by falling off the roof.

For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages." 1Tim 5:18 (see also Leviticus 19:13, Deuteronomy 24:14-15, Matthew 10:10, 1 Corinthians 9:9)

So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel. 1 Corinthians 9:14

The principle drawn from the above scriptures is simple, if you work, you are owed compensation.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Till Schilling

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Common examples:

When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, so that you will not bring bloodguilt on your house if anyone falls from it. Deut 22:8

The general principle drawn from the text is that a person would be guilty if someone were harmed by falling off the roof.

For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages." 1Tim 5:18 (see also Leviticus 19:13, Deuteronomy 24:14-15, Matthew 10:10, 1 Corinthians 9:9)

So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel. 1 Corinthians 9:14

The principle drawn from the above scriptures is simple, if you work, you are owed compensation.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Thanks, JM.

This is not new though. It is the Hebrew ethics which attracted many Greek and Roman pagans already 2000 years ago and let them to join or be close to Judaism. And later - in the form of Christian morals and ethics - impacted and eventually changed the public law of the empire and the Christian kingdoms and countries of Europe after the empire and - to a lessening degree but always recognizable - until well into the second half of the 20th century.

What I would be interested to know is, if those North-American Reformed theonomists came up with a new idea of how to influence the politics and the law-making of 21st century democracies with a predominantly neopagan citizenship? In the US they had things like the moral majority snd the Christian right for almost 40 years. And nothing to show for it. Not even speaking of the embarrassment of Trump. My question is: what’s the point of contemplating what laws could be derived from Scriptures if there is no chance whatsoever to ever turn them into public law?
 
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JM

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You are correct theonomy is not new, not new at all and post #10 points that out. The Magna Carta was based on biblical law!

Christians should hope that the Gospel will continue to go into all the world and affect and change society. This is the blessed hope of biblical eschatology grounded in the fact that Christ is ruling and reigning now. We should not get our eschatology, our hope from the news headlines but from the promises of scripture. There will be setbacks, we will lose some ground at times, but don't give up the fight.

The Return of Christ feileadhmor jm.png


The underlying presupposition of modern Protestants is pessimism due to their eschatological opinions namely Amil and Premil. It's easy to look around and judge the world as 'getting worse' but it takes faith to boldly continue to preach the Gospel and affect society for Christ.

Don't lose hope! Christ is on His throne NOW.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Till Schilling

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You are correct theonomy is not new, not new at all and post #10 points that out. The Magna Carta was based on biblical law!

Christians should hope that the Gospel will continue to go into all the world and affect and change society. This is the blessed hope of biblical eschatology grounded in the fact that Christ is ruling and reigning now. We should not get our eschatology, our hope from the news headlines but from the promises of scripture. There will be setbacks, we will lose some ground at times, but don't give up the fight.

View attachment 295191

The underlying presupposition of modern Protestants is pessimism due to their eschatological opinions namely Amil and Premil. It's easy to look around and judge the world as 'getting worse' but it takes faith to boldly continue to preach the Gospel and affect society for Christ.

Don't lose hope! Christ is on His throne NOW.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

I can’t speak for Premil but I don’t see how Amillenialism takes away hope. Our hope is in the second coming of Christ, the resurrection of the dead and the creation of a new world. Our hope is to be found among the sheep and to be allowed eternity in the new world in the presence of God. How is that hopeless?

As for the time here on earth and until then, whilst I would prefer for Cesar, for the government to oppose the forces of sin and perversion, I know that it is not necessary for the Gospel to spread and for the church to grow. It happened in the pagan Roman empire, it happens today in atheist China, happens all over Africa, it even happens increasingly in the Muslim world. Christ reigns, you are correct. Alas, I don’t expect that to mean that we will see a revival in Europe anytime soon. Too rich, too self-satisfied. What Paul wrote to the Corinthians applies to us as nations:

“For behold your calling, brethren, how that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;“
 
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JM

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I can’t speak for Premil but I don’t see how Amillenialism takes away hope. Our hope is in the second coming of Christ, the resurrection of the dead and the creation of a new world. Our hope is to be found among the sheep and to be allowed eternity in the new world in the presence of God. How is that hopeless?

As for the time here on earth and until then, whilst I would prefer for Cesar, for the government to oppose the forces of sin and perversion, I know that it is not necessary for the Gospel to spread and for the church to grow. It happened in the pagan Roman empire, it happens today in atheist China, happens all over Africa, it even happens increasingly in the Muslim world. Christ reigns, you are correct. Alas, I don’t expect that to mean that we will see a revival in Europe anytime soon. Too rich, too self-satisfied. What Paul wrote to the Corinthians applies to us as nations:

“For behold your calling, brethren, how that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;“
Amil teaches, usually, that things will get worse before Christ's return.
 
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