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Theology = Science

Do you think science and theology are the same thing?

  • Yes.

  • No.


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Mallon

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mark has been equating theology with science lately, and I'm wondering how people here feel about his views. Do you agree? Do you disagree? This view certainly disagrees with the modern distinction between science and theology, so for those who agree with mark's assessment, I wonder if you might be able to elaborate on the following after you have voted:
  1. What definition of science are you using? (Note: I am not asking for the etymology of word "science.")
  2. Does the equation work both ways? Does theology = science, and science = theology? Or is theology simply a subset of science, as with biology, physics, chemistry, etc.?
  3. Is Muslim, Islamic, Jewish, or Hindu theology also scientific? Or must one be Christian in order to do science?
Play nice! :wave:
 

vossler

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Here are a few of the Dictionary.com definitions for science:

4. systematized knowledge in general.
5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
6. a particular branch of knowledge.
7. skill, esp. reflecting a precise application of facts or principles; proficiency.

While Webster's 1828 dictionary defines it:

1. In a general sense, knowledge, or certain knowledge; the comprehension or understanding of truth or facts by the mind. The science of God must be perfect.

2. In philosophy, a collection of the general principles or leading truths relating to any subject. Pure science, as the mathematics, is built on self-evident truths; but the term science is also applied to other subjects founded on generally acknowledged truths, as metaphysics; or on experiment and observation, as chimistry and natural philosophy; or even to an assemblage of the general principles of an art, as the science of agriculture; the science of navigation. Arts relate to practice, as painting and sculpture.
I personally like the 1828 version. :D

So the short answer to your question, at least for me, theology is a subset of science.

The study of anything, whether true or not, is still seeking knowledge.
 
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laptoppop

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I think the proper semantics would be that theology is "a" science -- not that it is science. It is not a science in the naturalistic investigative mode (i.e. employing the scientific method), but is a science in terms of an orderly field of study. Vossler's definitions are spot on.
 
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busterdog

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I bit. Assuming that theology is the study of say the witness of what scripture says, then yes, its the same thing. Both fields make claims about what is real and what isn't, and that would put them largely on the same footing.

That being said, one has to pick one's witnesses. Are these systems of knowledge validated by independent means?

Well, its enough for me that a Biblical faith works. It deals with my personal issue successfully beyond mere luck or chance. It deals with world issues pretty successfully as well, predicting things beyond what chance would allow. The majority of people on the planet would disagree with me.

Muslim, Jewish and Hindu faiths fail to appreciate that all things consist in Christ, except for the witness of the Messiah in the OT. Otherwise, these witnesses are false witnesses on this essential issue.
 
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KerrMetric

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Theology is not a science in the modern sense of the word science. The scientific method (whatever your thoughts about it) is in no way adhered to or even attempted in theology.

Theology is only a science in the sense that politics is a science.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Theology should operate on a rigerous methodology, and as much as any other discipline should be 'scientific' in its approach. Like all academic fields of knowledge, it can be characterized as a scientific pursuit.

That said (and pay attention here, mark kennedy), it is not one of the hard, natural, physical sciences.

It does not make the same assumptions as the hard sciences (uniformitarianism, methodological naturalism) because it, by definition, deals with supernatural facts and changing systems (covenant economies, etc.).

Like all rigorously academic fields, theology is also capable of interacting with other academic fields (sciences, according to mark kennedy), include history and the hard, physical, natural sciences. But when it interacts with others fields, it should interact on their terms- this is simply the case with all interdisciplinary interaction.

When a theologian seeks to historically defend the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the theologian should act as a historian, using historical methodologies and criteria.

And when a theologian seeks to make scientific claims about the natural world, the theologian should act as a scientist, using scientific methodologies and assumptions.

But theology is not a hard, natural, physical science any more than it is history. Certainly the theologian's job is similar to the scientist- like the scientist, the theologian seeks to collect as many relevant facts as possible from the Holy Scriptures and deduce from them the underlying systems (covenant economy, Trinitarianism, redemptive-history, metascientific claims like original sin, etc.).

In this way, history is also a science. Historians collect data from primary source documents and archaeological finds and assembles them into an overaching historical narrative.

But neither history nor theology are hard, physical, natural sciences, and neither operates on the same assumptions because neither is dealing with the same set and type of data.
 
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Assyrian

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No, I addressed it with my last statement. :wave:

The study of anything, whether true or not, is still seeking knowledge.
So theology is a science in the same sense as astrology or crystal healing?

This is the problem Behe found, if your try to open up the meaning of science to fit in theology or ID, loads of other less desirable disciplines slip in too. They all want to be called science too. There goes the neighbourhood, property values fall. Suddenly science is no longer the wonderful place you thought it was going to be. No one wants to come to the church picnic because of smoke from the burning wicker man next door.
 
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ab1385

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Science is a systematic method for studying the natural world, through the scientific method. For the scientific method to be able to study God, He would need to be a mechanical system, with predictable outputs to any inputs, rather than the personal God He is.

Theology is a systematic study (hopefully!) of whatever one perceives to be material which teaches us directly about God (largely scripture).

Thus, if you believe that the natural world can teach us about God, then some theology is science, at least in the loosest definition of science.

Just because both science and theology are systematic studies of something does not mean that they are equatable, does it?
 
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busterdog

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So theology is a science in the same sense as astrology or crystal healing?

This is the problem Behe found, if your try to open up the meaning of science to fit in theology or ID, loads of other less desirable disciplines slip in too. They all want to be called science too. There goes the neighbourhood, property values fall. Suddenly science is no longer the wonderful place you thought it was going to be. No one wants to come to the church picnic because of smoke from the burning wicker man next door.

The parable of the kingdom itself is of all sorts of un-kosher things being involved, like pearls, leaven, birds (implicitly, unclean birds).

I think keeping out the riff-raff is really a seperate concern. There is no rule for any organization or belief system that can by definition alone keep out the riff raff. And lots of us are riff raff anyway!

The Bible is an urgent, urgent attempt to establish what is real and what isn't. Reliability is essential to its message. Granted there are parables, but large portions of its message are simply about simple statements of truth. Why should we split hairs about whether core issues are simply true as stated? Concerns about misinterpretation will leave you with no cogent message at all. To discriminate on types of "truth seeking" or "truth telling" on that basis is like having the tail wag the dog.
 
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theFijian

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The parable of the kingdom itself is of all sorts of un-kosher things being involved, like pearls, leaven, birds (implicitly, unclean birds).

I think keeping out the riff-raff is really a seperate concern. There is no rule for any organization or belief system that can by definition alone keep out the riff raff. And lots of us are riff raff anyway!

The Bible is an urgent, urgent attempt to establish what is real and what isn't. Reliability is essential to its message. Granted there are parables, but large portions of its message are simply about simple statements of truth. Why should we split hairs about whether core issues are simply true as stated? Concerns about misinterpretation will leave you with no cogent message at all. To discriminate on types of "truth seeking" or "truth telling" on that basis is like having the tail wag the dog.

I really have no idea what this post is supposed to be saying. Can someone help?
 
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Assyrian

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He is saying he is happy to have theology in the same company as astrology and crystal healing because the parable said not to separate the tares from the wheat. Of course that is mistaking claiming the title 'science' for the kingdom of God, but the whole attempt to label theology 'science' is trying to grab the worldly glory of science to dress up theology.

Theology and science both seek after truth, but they do it in very different ways. Call theology 'truth seeking' by all means, just don't call it science. And if your theology is content to lie in the mud with the pigs, science isn't. Science works hard to root out every bad theory and pseudoscience. That is why astrology and alchemy aren't sciences any more. It is why science does not want to go back to a time when alchemy and astrology were included.
 
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shernren

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Granted there are parables, but large portions of its message are simply about simple statements of truth.

Parables are the simplest statements of truth there ever were. You've seen so much blood spilled over Genesis 1 - has anybody ever cut you to pieces over disagreements about the Prodigal Son?
 
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