Theocracy

[SpyderByte]

What makes him all-knowing? Because he said so?

Probably the whole "Creator of the whole universe and everything in it part." You'd think the one who made it, would kinda know what's going on...

 

[Cearbhall]

Probably the whole "Creator of the whole universe and everything in it part." You'd think the one who made it, would kinda know what's going on...

So because he said so (supposedly). Sorry, I don't take people at their word when they say that they're all-knowing.

 

[SpyderByte]

So because he said so (supposedly). Sorry, I don't take people at their word when they say that they're all-knowing.

If their human, duh, course not! Ain't a human alive that ever knew everything, our brains can't even comprehend everything! Of course its funny. You claim God can't know everything, but in terms of knowledge, you, me, anybody knows basically nothing. Is it possible God is where your brain can't go? Your problem is, you think humans (prolly mostly yourself) is at the top, and lookin down on everything else. Sorry bud, you, me, we ain't the top dogs, so until you realize that, you ain't gonna see the forest for the trees. What's the bible call folks like this? Oh yeah, willingly ignorant. Blinders man, gotta take em off, and be a little humble to see the whole picture! Later!

 

[Freodin]

Just to make my point crystal clear, it wouldn't matter if someone was a benevolent dictator (or Platonic "Philosopher King") who also had all of the best advice. The problem is that forcing people to live a certain way is dehumanizing and oppressive where adults are concerned.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Perhaps being the benevolent dictator - and omnipotent and omniscient... he would also know and be able to ensure that "the best advice" is adhered to without "forcing people".

I don't know. I wouldn't know what a real omnipotent deity could or would do. But neither do those who worship this super-human they call God.

 

[Strathos]

I'm not suggesting that human beings will ever create a utopia. However, no theocratic form of government can ever be better, or even as good as, a free society whatever its imperfections.

How do you know this, if you have no experience of what a divine theocracy would be like?

Little kids are not by nature equivalent to adults. Adults by nature have a need to make their own plans, to act on their own decisions, to take responsibility for their own actions, and to create their own characters. To foil this process is to stunt the process of maturation, and to create people who are physically adults, but are still dependent little children inside. This is an evil. It's like growing plants, but deliberately giving them less sunlight or water than they need for optimal growth. Such plants cannot thrive as the plants they are.

We can do all of that to an extent, but we simply can't be trusted to make our own plans on such a large scale. Look at how screwed up the world is, all of the war and violence and hate. Humans are inherently flawed beings, we can try to do the best with what we have but God knows better than we do.

This isn't about "declaring" oneself an adult, but about being one by nature and having needs that arise from that nature.

Which is, again, only relevant compared to humans. You're taking the analogy too far.

Perhaps being the benevolent dictator - and omnipotent and omniscient... he would also know and be able to ensure that "the best advice" is adhered to without "forcing people".

I don't know. I wouldn't know what a real omnipotent deity could or would do. But neither do those who worship this super-human they call God.

I freely admit I don't know what kind of ideal government God would institute, but it wouldn't be like any government ever seen on Earth before.

 

[Cearbhall]

Blinders man, gotta take em off, and be a little humble to see the whole picture! Later!

Blinders? Wanting evidence means I'm wearing blinders?

Did you even notice my icon, or are you under the impression that I'm just a confused teen Christian?

Your problem is, you think humans (prolly mostly yourself) is at the top, and lookin down on everything else. Sorry bud, you, me, we ain't the top dogs, so until you realize that, you ain't gonna see the forest for the trees. What's the bible call folks like this? Oh yeah, willingly ignorant.

Religion is so fascinating. Yes, we're at the top, apart from the more intelligent species that probably exist on other planets.

 

[Belk]

Probably the whole "Creator of the whole universe and everything in it part." You'd think the one who made it, would kinda know what's going on...

Being the creator of something does not logically imply omniscience about said created object.

 

[Cearbhall]

If their human, duh, course not! Ain't a human alive that ever knew everything, our brains can't even comprehend everything! Of course its funny. You claim God can't know everything, but in terms of knowledge, you, me, anybody knows basically nothing. Is it possible God is where your brain can't go? Your problem is, you think humans (prolly mostly yourself) is at the top, and lookin down on everything else. Sorry bud, you, me, we ain't the top dogs, so until you realize that, you ain't gonna see the forest for the trees. What's the bible call folks like this? Oh yeah, willingly ignorant. Blinders man, gotta take em off, and be a little humble to see the whole picture! Later!

Your level of condescension is impressive. Your grammar, not so much.

It is quite possible that there are things which are beyond my brain's comprehension. I have no reason to believe that evolution has given the modern homo sapiens brain the ability to understand everything in the universe. Accordingly, I fail to see how I can be expected to believe in something that I can't even comprehend.

 

[yasic]

Probably the whole "Creator of the whole universe and everything in it part." You'd think the one who made it, would kinda know what's going on...

I don't see how one follows from the other?

 

[Cearbhall]

I don't see how one follows from the other?

Nor do I see how verbal claims can be considered infallible evidence of either thing.

 

[yasic]

Nor do I see how verbal claims can be considered infallible evidence of either thing.

I'm saying, if it could be hypothetically proven that God did in fact create the universe, how does this logically result in him knowing everything today?

 

[Cearbhall]

I'm saying, if it could be hypothetically proven that God did in face create the universe, how does this logically result in him knowing everything today?

And I'm agreeing with you. I was just adding to your statement.

 

[Eudaimonist]

How do you know this, if you have no experience of what a divine theocracy would be like?

Unless a divine theocracy is a free society that respects the self-determination of the individual, then I know this based on my knowledge of human nature.

And if you are going to play this card, what are we talking about? If you aren't willing to specify what a divine theocracy would be like, or to accept my speculations, then we have nothing that we can talk about.

We can do all of that to an extent, but we simply can't be trusted to make our own plans on such a large scale.

Yes, we can, Mister Negative. I realize that the world has problems, but it has many good aspects as well, especially in liberal democracies.

And I'm not talking about "large plans", but about the freedom of the individual in society. Individual rights are preferable to theocratic control.

Humans are inherently flawed beings, we can try to do the best with what we have but God knows better than we do.

None of that means that human beings shouldn't have free societies.

Which is, again, only relevant compared to humans. You're taking the analogy too far.

No, this is not "only relevant compared to humans". There is no comparison. Human beings have human needs regardless of any relations to anything else.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[KCfromNC]

Probably the whole "Creator of the whole universe and everything in it part." You'd think the one who made it, would kinda know what's going on...

You mean the god who was stopped dead in his tracks by the technological marvel that is iron chariots?

 

[Gadarene]

You mean the god who was stopped dead in his tracks by the technological marvel that is iron chariots?

Who also apparently knew about them in advance.

 

[Cearbhall]

We can do all of that to an extent, but we simply can't be trusted to make our own plans on such a large scale.

And we believe there's no other option, so oh well.

 

[Strathos]

Unless a divine theocracy is a free society that respects the self-determination of the individual, then I know this based on my knowledge of human nature.

So in other words, if a society doesn't fit your idea of what a perfect society is, then it can't be any good? Despite the fact that your knowledge and experience of societies is limited to what has historically existed on earth? That's awful narrow-minded.

And if you are going to play this card, what are we talking about? If you aren't willing to specify what a divine theocracy would be like, or to accept my speculations, then we have nothing that we can talk about.

I'm not God. All I know is that it would be better than anything humans could come up with by themselves.

Yes, we can, Mister Negative. I realize that the world has problems, but it has many good aspects as well, especially in liberal democracies.

And I'm not talking about "large plans", but about the freedom of the individual in society. Individual rights are preferable to theocratic control.

To human-mandated/enforced theocratic control, sure. But not for a God who genuinely knows what is best for us. For example, do you support not polluting the environment? Do you think laws against pollution are good, even though they would restrict the freedom of people to litter, for instance?

None of that means that human beings shouldn't have free societies.

Define "free". A perfectly "free" society is anarchy, every man for himself. That's obviously not a stable model for civilization. I think almost everyone would agree there have to be some kind of rules/restrictions in place.

No, this is not "only relevant compared to humans". There is no comparison. Human beings have human needs regardless of any relations to anything else.

A lot of the things we want are often not the things we need, and vice-versa.

 

[Gadarene]

So in other words, if a society doesn't fit your idea of what a perfect society is, then it can't be any good? Despite the fact that your knowledge and experience of societies is limited to what has historically existed on earth? That's awful narrow-minded.

Ok.

I'm not God. All I know is that it would be better than anything humans could come up with by themselves.

 

[JGG]

I'm not God. All I know is that it would be better than anything humans could come up with by themselves.

What are the specifics of this system you're advocating?

 

[Cearbhall]

2) In the Divine aspect of a theocracy (God is directly involved) state what do you hate/fear about it, and expound on it.

Going back to the OP for a moment, I'm not sure why you would ask non-theists this question. I haven't really given much thought to forms of government that I believe to be fictional. This is like asking why we wouldn't want Voldemort to be in power.