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Theistic Evolutionist...

AV1611VET

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But why document it, but leave no evidence of it, if it wasn't His intent to be deceptive?
What do you want from Him, Warden?

Just like in Genesis 1, He documented what He did, where He did it, when He did it, how He did it, what order He did it in, how long it took, and even who the eyewitnesses were.

Isn't that good enough?

Would it really matter to you if the Bible would have said ...

"And the LORD swept up the coccoliths into a pile by the sea."

I have a feeling it wouldn't.

You guys would just say that's wrong too.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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What do you want from Him, Warden?

Just like in Genesis 1, He documented what He did, where He did it, when He did it, how He did it, what order He did it in, how long it took, and even who the eyewitnesses were.

Isn't that good enough?

Would it really matter to you if the Bible would have said ...

"And the LORD swept up the coccoliths into a pile by the sea."

I have a feeling it wouldn't.

You guys would just say that's wrong too.

That's because the Bible is not the word of God. He did not write it, He did not proof-read it, He did nothing.
The Bible was written by men, who wrote it in at a time when they knew very little about the wider world around them.
It is not the inerrant word of God. It is man-made, pure and simple.
 
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AV1611VET

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That's because the Bible is not the word of God. He did not write it, He did not proof-read it, He did nothing.
The Bible was written by men, who wrote it in at a time when they knew very little about the wider world around them.
It is not the inerrant word of God. It is man-made, pure and simple.
Merry Christmas.
 
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Hoghead1

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Can't say as I agree with you, AV161. Genesis actually consists of t3wo contradictory accounts of creation. Observe that the chronologies radically conflict. Gen. 1 has first animals, then man. Gen. 2 has first man, then animals, then woman. Hence, the burden falls upon you to show how they are one account. Good luck. Attempts to force these into one unified account have all failed. Also, Gen. does not explain the how or why of creation. Why did God create? No answer. Out of what did God create? No clear answer. Maybe out of nothing, maybe out of some preexistent chaos. How long did it take? Lots of arguments about what is meant by day here.
 
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AV1611VET

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Can't say as I agree with you, AV161.
That's your prerogative, my friend! :)
Hoghead1 said:
Genesis actually consists of t3wo contradictory accounts of creation.
No, sir, it does not.
Hoghead1 said:
Observe that the chronologies radically conflict. Gen. 1 has first animals, then man. Gen. 2 has first man, then animals, then woman. Hence, the burden falls upon you to show how they are one account. Good luck.
Let me ask you a question:

How many times in Genesis 2 was Adam placed in the Garden?

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.


If you make concessions and say "just once," then why can't you make concessions for your 'contradictory accounts'?
Hoghead1 said:
Attempts to force these into one unified account have all failed.
The chapter designations came well after Genesis was written.
Hoghead1 said:
Also, Gen. does not explain the how or why of creation.
You're wrong and right.

Genesis does indeed say how: God spake.

Genesis does not say why; that comes later.
Hoghead1 said:
Why did God create? No answer.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Hoghead1 said:
Out of what did God create?
Nothing.
Hoghead1 said:
No clear answer.
Nothing.
Hoghead1 said:
Maybe out of nothing, maybe out of some preexistent chaos.
Nothing.
Hoghead1 said:
How long did it take?
Six days.
Hoghead1 said:
Lots of arguments about what is meant by day here.
I'll go with "twenty-four hours."

Anything else just makes it worse.
 
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Hoghead1

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OK, I hear you, AV161. Now let me ask you a question: Gen. 1 says first animals, then man and woman. Gen. 2 says first man, then animals, then woman. Now how is that anything but a serious contradiction in chronologies? Now let me ask you another question: How many wives did Adam have? If you say one, you are dead wrong according to Medieval Christianity. The latter attempted to fuse these two conflicting accounts into one. This lead to a major problem in accounting for all the personnel. You had to account for a woman created with Adam (Gen. 1) and then a second woman created in the Garden, namely, Eve. Hence, the myth of Lilith. The woman in Gen. 1 was named Lilith and assumed to be Adam's first wife. The problem was that she wanted to ride on top of Adam during sex. Adam didn't like it, so God gave him a second wife, more submissive, Eve. Lilith ran off and terrorizes children, so that many cribs had "God save us from Lilith" on them. I mention that to show it is impossible to fuse these accounts into one. For example, there is the ever-popular pluperfect theory. This is very prevalent among self-styled online apologists. The argument is that gen. 2 has been seriously mistranslated. Well, that's nice to know. Too bad the translators didn't have one of these apologists, who generally cannot read Hebrew, on their staff. The argument goes that Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect. The line should read, "So God had created the animals." That way, you can easily square the chronologies of 1 and 2. Only problem is, there is no pluperfect tense in Hebrew. Any use of "had" here is totally wrong. Furthermore, in terms of language, there are sharp differences between 1 and 2. That has led biblical scholars to point out Gen. 2 was written by a separate author long before Gen. 1. Hence, 2 is a separate account, not a further exposition of 1.

You point to Rev. as a motive for God creating. That is totally irrelevant here, as the focus is on Gen. 1, which says nothing to that effect.
You claim Gen. 1 says out of nothing. As I pointed out above, that may be obvious for you, but certainly not to many biblical scholars.
You say Gen. 1 says how God creates. It does not. It does not make it clear whether God creates out of nothing or out of a preexistent chaos. Any serious student of the Bible can tell you that. You say it explains how God creates just because it says God spoke. OK, but just how does that work? How is it the case that just by speaking, God cerates?

You say that "yom" here means a 24-hour period. Well, that might be OK for you, but it is certainly not OK with many biblical scholars, who point out key ambiguities in the meaning of yom in the first place. Remember, the Bible says that a thousand years are but a day to God.
 
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AV1611VET

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OK, I hear you, AV161. Now let me ask you a question: Gen. 1 says first animals, then man and woman. Gen. 2 says first man, then animals, then woman. Now how is that anything but a serious contradiction in chronologies? Now let me ask you another question: How many wives did Adam have? If you say one, you are dead wrong according to Medieval Christianity. The latter attempted to fuse these two conflicting accounts into one. This lead to a major problem in accounting for all the personnel. You had to account for a woman created with Adam (Gen. 1) and then a second woman created in the Garden, namely, Eve. Hence, the myth of Lilith. The woman in Gen. 1 was named Lilith and assumed to be Adam's first wife. The problem was that she wanted to ride on top of Adam during sex. Adam didn't like it, so God gave him a second wife, more submissive, Eve. Lilith ran off and terrorizes children, so that many cribs had "God save us from Lilith" on them. I mention that to show it is impossible to fuse these accounts into one. For example, there is the ever-popular pluperfect theory. This is very prevalent among self-styled online apologists. The argument is that gen. 2 has been seriously mistranslated. Well, that's nice to know. Too bad the translators didn't have one of these apologists, who generally cannot read Hebrew, on their staff. The argument goes that Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect. The line should read, "So God had created the animals." That way, you can easily square the chronologies of 1 and 2. Only problem is, there is no pluperfect tense in Hebrew. Any use of "had" here is totally wrong. Furthermore, in terms of language, there are sharp differences between 1 and 2. That has led biblical scholars to point out Gen. 2 was written by a separate author long before Gen. 1. Hence, 2 is a separate account, not a further exposition of 1.

You point to Rev. as a motive for God creating. That is totally irrelevant here, as the focus is on Gen. 1, which says nothing to that effect.
You claim Gen. 1 says out of nothing. As I pointed out above, that may be obvious for you, but certainly not to many biblical scholars.
You say Gen. 1 says how God creates. It does not. It does not make it clear whether God creates out of nothing or out of a preexistent chaos. Any serious student of the Bible can tell you that. You say it explains how God creates just because it says God spoke. OK, but just how does that work? How is it the case that just by speaking, God cerates?

You say that "yom" here means a 24-hour period. Well, that might be OK for you, but it is certainly not OK with many biblical scholars, who point out key ambiguities in the meaning of yom in the first place. Remember, the Bible says that a thousand years are but a day to God.
Merry Christmas.
 
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Hoghead1

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God creates out of nothing? Wait a sec. God creates man out of dust, not our of nothing. God creates the universe out of nothing? At no point is there found a Hebrew word-equivalent for "nothing." And just what does "nothing" really mean? To some, it means an absolute zero; to others, it means a preexistent chaos. Anyhow, anyone who has carefully read the opening lines to Genesis will note a serious ambiguity exists here. Maybe God creates out of nothing. Maybe out of some kind a preexistent chaos that came from God knows where. And it God does create out of nothing, what does he first create out ouf absolutely nothing a kind of chaos out of which he ten forms the world? If God can create out of nothing, this intermediate step would not be necessary. There are big questions here. People want to know. Genesis leaves is in the lurch.

God creates by speaking. Woah. He created man by breathing life into him, not speaking. What, then, is the difference between speaking and breathing? Why is one used for one thing, the other for another? Again a solid question left unanswered by Genesis. God creates everything by speaking, in Gen. 1? Nope. There is some kind of unspecified creative process going on via the Spirit prior to God speaking anything. What was happening here? Bottom line: Genesis is a contradictory and overly brief account of creation.
 
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Hoghead1

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Thanks, but comments such as Merry Christmas are totally inappropriate here. This is a discussion group[ and that means you should present here some sort of rebuttal of what I have said. If you are unwilling to do that, this is a clear admission on your part that you cannot address the matters I brought up.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Indeed.

Only empiricists would mix:
  1. BC/AD
  2. the Bible
  3. Christian churches
  4. Christian literature
  5. Christian symbols, edifices, and iconography
  6. Christian organizations, schools and universities
  7. Christian programs and debates
  8. Christian hymns, carols, and songs
  9. Christian greetings and holidays
  10. Christian polls, programming and entertainment
... into a pot of Heinz-57 religions in an attempt to dilute what's all around them.

Furthermore, only empiricists would argue against a love-thine-enemy Church, using terrorist religions.

That entire list only proves the existance of a religion called christianity. It doesn't say anything about wheter or not the claims of the religion are correct.
 
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DogmaHunter

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So would the concept of a guy rising from the dead on day 3

Indeed.

....buts that's your flawed reality.

No, it's actual reality.
This is why people cry at a funeral. Because they know that the deceased won't be standing up again.


As for me...I believe in miracles.

You can believe whatever you wish. But reality doesn't change based on your beliefs.

Just the concept of no God is 100% incompatible with the evidence of reality.

Clearly, it's not.
 
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Neogaia777

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That's because the Bible is not the word of God. He did not write it, He did not proof-read it, He did nothing.
The Bible was written by men, who wrote it in at a time when they knew very little about the wider world around them.
It is not the inerrant word of God. It is man-made, pure and simple.
So, you believe there may be a God, though...?
 
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Neogaia777

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I do not believe in a God because of the Bible. The Bible is 100% man-made.
But you expressed You "suggested" in one of your earlier posts, that you weren't closed off completely to an idea of there being a God, or gods, just not the God or gods of the Bible...

What do you think about Jesus?, was he real?, or is his Story is a made-up work?

God Bless!
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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But you expressed You "suggested" in one of your earlier posts, that you weren't closed off completely to an idea of there being a God, or gods, just not the God or gods of the Bible...

What do you think about Jesus?, was he real?, or is his Story is a made-up work?

God Bless!

I can accept that there was a man called Jesus, that he was a philosopher of sorts and that he was crucified.
I do not accept that he was the son of God.

I believe in God, but I do not believe in the Bible, not as an object (before anyone starts being snarky) or as a religious guidebook.
 
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Neogaia777

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I do not believe in a God because of the Bible. The Bible is 100% man-made.
If it is man-made, then why do you allow the Bible to prevent you from believing in a God?, then why the miracles? they all lies too?

God Bless!
 
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