Theistic Evolution

[BC1990]

I did not know where to post this, so if it's in the wrong place, please move it. Sorry for any problems.

To non-evolutionist Christians, do you think that Theistic Evolutionists, who fit the Big Bang and Evolution into Scripture, still have salvation, as long as their theology is accurate?

I am on the fence about Theistic Darwinism/Evolutionism; it isn't there in a plain reading of the text, but maybe God explained things in simpler ways to Moses because no one in that time frame would have been able to understand a true exhaustive scientific description.

Also, I was speaking to a friend of mine about the conflict of secular human history, and Biblical...according to secular human history, Homo Sapiens have been around close to 200,000 years, while the Bible would indicate much less...my friend argued that the Genesis 10 genealogies represent nations, as opposed to individual people...as in, when the text reads "X fathered Y and Z," X represents one nation splitting into many more nations, which may have taken long, long periods of time. Thoughts on this?

 

[stormdancer0]

No, you really have to choose. You have to twist and distort the scriptures so much to get to theistic evolution that it destroys the Bible's message. Go to the Answers in Genesis website and look at their information. There is an amazing amount of evidence for the Bible being perfectly correct, including a sudden, complete "coming into being" of the universe. MUCH MORE evidence than evolution has.

Many atheistic scientists have admitted that there is little true evidence for evolution. But since the only other option is God, and they refuse to believe in God, they would rather believe evolution.

 

[Shulamite]

No, you really have to choose. You have to twist and distort the scriptures so much to get to theistic evolution that it destroys the Bible's message. Go to the Answers in Genesis website and look at their information. There is an amazing amount of evidence for the Bible being perfectly correct, including a sudden, complete "coming into being" of the universe. MUCH MORE evidence than evolution has.

Many atheistic scientists have admitted that there is little true evidence for evolution. But since the only other option is God, and they refuse to believe in God, they would rather believe evolution.

 

[catinherhat]

"Many atheistic scientists have admitted that there is little true evidence for evolution. But since the only other option is God, and they refuse to believe in God, they would rather believe evolution."

I'm sorry, but I had to join this website JUST to say that that is absolute nonsense. Scientists do not believe in evolution as a stubborn last resort, as you suggest.
Evolution is obvious in not only fossils for millions of years ago but in the world around us still to this day, it is a sign of the intelligence of nature which - if you wish - you can relate back to intelligence of a 'God'.
Do not take the bible as word for word truth but rather a basic way to build your life upon. They didn't know the things 2000 years ago we know today, you can't believe every word of guys who wrote the book 2000 years ago, it just isn't intelligent, open your minds.

 

[stormdancer0]

The Bible is the ONLY word-for-word truth there is. I agree that this argument nonsense, but not for the same reason you do. What you see as various evidences for arbitrary evolution, I see as rock-solid evidence of a mighty, omnicient God, who created all things in beauty. (though I want to discuss with Him the "beauty" of spiders when I get to Heaven!! Surely He could have made them less creepy!)

Evolution is only obvious if you start out with that particular bias. Many times carbon-14 dating has been proven faulty. Newly formed rocks (from volcanic eruptions) and snail shells taken from living snails have been dated in the hundreds of thousands of years old. The other forms of dating, too, are partially based on what layer the fossil was found in. But the dates of the layers are based on the fossils found. There are fossilized trees found piercing through what is supposed to be millions of years worth of strata. Did it really take that long for the tree to fossilize? They also are all based on the faulty assumption that the levels of these substances (C-14, for example) are approximately the same now as it was when the animal/plant died. C-14 has fluctuated in the past 75 years, so there's no way it's the same now as "millions" of years ago.

There is not one iota of unarguable data upholding macro-evolution, inter-species evolution, or stellar evolution. If you can honestly tell me that you believe that every particle in the universe was once a minuscule dot that suddenly, for no reason at all, exploded, creating everything, then maybe we shouldn't speak of intelligence.

I'm sorry, that was ugly. But still, I have found no one who can refute any of the claims for Biblical creationism as described in the website I cited above. There are other sites, as well, but I like the Answers in Genesis one because it is simple logic that almost anyone can understand, but at the same time is intelligently discussed.

Apparently, those guys 2000 years ago knew SOMETHING that people today don't. They knew God.

With multiple college degrees and several years of college teaching under my belt, I have all the intelligence I need. And my mind is open enough to accept truth, but not so open that my brain falls out.

There is such a thing as human arrogance - "If I can't see it and I can't prove it, it must not exist. And we MUST be smarter than those primitive God-followers 2000 years ago." Pure, unadulterated arrogance.

 

[BC1990]

So stormdancer, just straight forward, yes or no - can a Theistic Evolutionist who believes Christ is the only way to Heaven still have salvation?

 

[stormdancer0]

Well, believing is not enough. The demons know Christ, believe in Him, and know who He is. They believe that Christ is the only way to Heaven - they KNOW it.

If you have given yourself to Christ - not just said a prayer and got "dunked, but truly handed your life over to Christ - this is the criteria for salvation. You must follow Christ, you must belong to Him, love Him, worship Him.

That said, If you have surrendered your life to Christ, and still feel like theistic evolution is viable, then that's between you and God.

But yes, you can believe in theistic evolution and be saved.

It's a subject I love to argue about, though. (We're not supposed to debate on some of the forums. But I love to do it.)

 

[BC1990]

Well, believing is not enough. The demons know Christ, believe in Him, and know who He is. They believe that Christ is the only way to Heaven - they KNOW it.

If you have given yourself to Christ - not just said a prayer and got "dunked, but truly handed your life over to Christ - this is the criteria for salvation. You must follow Christ, you must belong to Him, love Him, worship Him.

That said, If you have surrendered your life to Christ, and still feel like theistic evolution is viable, then that's between you and God.

But yes, you can believe in theistic evolution and be saved.

It's a subject I love to argue about, though. (We're not supposed to debate on some of the forums. But I love to do it.)

That's basically my feeling on the situation as well.

But, if you can be saved and believe in it, why such the big fight about it?

 

[stormdancer0]

I argue with it because they are teaching these things as facts, when it's really an unprovable theory. It has permeated everything. Even the strongest Christians sometimes don't even realize how much they've been indoctrinated with it. Every European slave trader used this theory to justify slavery. Many people I know even today say that black skin is the "mark of Cain."

Hitler used it as an excuse to exterminate what he considered inferior races - he referred to them as human-shaped animals. The woman who founded Planned parenthood called orientals, blacks, and Jews "human weeds" in her autobiography.

The back side of this is, in an evolutionary world, we are nothing but animals. Smart ones, but animals. We have no reason to exist, no purpose. We are a fluke. An accident of (pardon the pun) Biblical proportions.

How do people act when they have no purpose, no reason to exist, when they see themselves as nothing more than an evolutionary anomaly? You hammer into someone's head long enough that there is no moral right or wrong, no purpose, and that their very existence is an accident, they lose respect and a sense of value for themselves and others. And you get what we have now - a predominantly Godless society, shaking our heads wondering why kids are killing kids in school, and searching for anything that will numb the pain of knowing that they are here for no reason. Drugs, sex, video games, anything that will fill that void that evolution would not have left - it's God-shaped.

They think: Who cares? It's just one amoeba killing another one. Survival of the fittest, right? I have an AK47, that makes me fittest.

This is why I home school. My kids understand the THEORY of evolution, but they also know the truth. That's why I argue about it.

Plus, as I said, I like to argue. And nothing will start it like announcing that God created the universe about 6000-8000 years ago, and it only took Him six days.

 

[BC1990]

I agree about how life is made meaningless if you believe in naturalistic evolution. I am completely on the same page as you there. It hits close to home actually, because I am an ethnically Jewish, believer in Christ. I had relatives who survived the Holocaust, and I realize the danger that accidental, chaotic "here by chance" evolution can cause.

On the other end, I don't think that a person HAS to believe the universe is 6,000 years old to be right with God. Along with theistic evolution, there is also the Gap Theory, Old-Earth Creation, Literary Framework View, and several others that would point to things being older than 6,000 years old. Heck, even Billy Graham said he was open to the idea of Theistic Evolution.

I just don't think the Body of Christ should get so hung up on the issue; it's what divides us. What unifies us is CHRIST, and the Gospel.

 

[stormdancer0]

EXACTLY!! All these side issues are just that - side issues.

It's like speaking in Tongues. I'm Pentecostal (but only relatively recently so). You want to get something started? Bring that up on a non-Pentecostal board!! But I see it as a side issue.

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

To non-evolutionist Christians, do you think that Theistic Evolutionists, who fit the Big Bang and Evolution into Scripture, still have salvation, as long as their theology is accurate?

Absolutely yes. As its said here its a side issue. I don't particularly believe in Theistic Evolution. But in my past i have tended to be a advocate for those that do follow it. If anything I'm a Old Earth Creationist, but i have many friends who are and they are some of the most Christ like Christian i have known. That have done amazing things to advance his Kingdom. I know a family were the father is a Baptist Pastor who is a Young Earth Creationist he has a wife who is a Doctor and believes Theistic Evolution. They had kids and there home was a place of safe discussion about this topic and they allowed each child to form there own conclusion about the issue.

I think this is how the church should be about this issue, sadly its not and i feel Theistic Evolutionists are often persecuted and told there salvation is null and void, over a biblical issue that has nothing to do with Christ from whom our salvation is from

 

[BC1990]

Absolutely yes. As its said here its a side issue. I don't particularly believe in Theistic Evolution. But in my past i have tended to be a advocate for those that do follow it. If anything I'm a Old Earth Creationist, but i have many friends who are and they are some of the most Christ like Christian i have known. That have done amazing things to advance his Kingdom. I know a family were the father is a Baptist Pastor who is a Young Earth Creationist he has a wife who is a Doctor and believes Theistic Evolution. They had kids and there home was a place of safe discussion about this topic and they allowed each child to form there own conclusion about the issue.

I think this is how the church should be about this issue, sadly its not and i feel Theistic Evolutionists are often persecuted and told there salvation is null and void, over a biblical issue that has nothing to do with Christ from whom our salvation is from

I completely agree, man. That's what kind of agitates me about Kent Hovind and those types (Hovind is currently serving several years in jail for tax evasion) - they are dogmatic about stuff that Scripture does not command us to be dogmatic about.

I know that Hovind was once in a debate and he said that to believe dinosaurs and other ancient animals (assuming they really did live million years ago) died before the fall of man and the first sin, is heresy. Heresy! I can understand a YEC feeling that there was no animal death before the first sin, but to say that those who disagree are guilty of heresy and have therefore lost their salvation? INSANE! The church is being divided right before our very eyes!

 

[stormdancer0]

Ken Hovind was brought in for questioning several times, but there was no evidence that he knew that his CPA was funneling employees' income taxes for personal use. It was only when they told her that she would get total immunity if she testified against him (and 10-15 yrs federal prison if she didn't) that she changed her story. No one ever proved conclusively that Hovind or his wife had any knowledge of the embezzlement - at least until the CPA suddenly provided her testimony.

To put it bluntly, Ken Hovind was railroaded, as was his wife, who is also still in prison for the same thing, I believe.

I didn't agree with some of what Hovind said, but not one atheistic scientist ever succeeded in refuting his logic.

The first death, as far as I can see, was when God sacrificed an animal to make clothes for Adam and Eve. It is a mirror of our salvation. We sin, and hide from God. When we do come out, we come out covered, but not adequately. God, through the blood of the sacrifice (Jesus), provides adequate cover for our sins. This is my own personal belief.

I do know that until Noah's flood, all creatures ate plant life. Man definitely did not eat meat until after the flood.

 

[BC1990]

But does Scripture say anywhere where God specifically tells Adam and Eve it's a sin to eat animals?

Also, He gives them dominion over animals; wouldn't that also include being able to eat them, if they chose to do so? Also consider he gives them dominion over fish (and other animals) that could never be used for anything but food...I could understand "dominion" referencing the usage of camels, etc. for transportation...but when it comes to having dominion over fish, what else could you use fish for, other than to eat?

And again stormdancer, you are my sister in Christ, and surely you agree with me that Hovind is wrong for saying that it's heresy, or that a person loses salvation, if they believe animals died before the fall of Adam. Death entered the human race via Adam's sin, and Christ came to die for our sins and to bring us from death, but animals are irrelevant on the issue. He did not die for the sins of animals.

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

But does Scripture say anywhere where God specifically tells Adam and Eve it's a sin to eat animals?

Also, He gives them dominion over animals; wouldn't that also include being able to eat them, if they chose to do so? Also consider he gives them dominion over fish (and other animals) that could never be used for anything but food...I could understand "dominion" referencing the usage of camels, etc. for transportation...but when it comes to having dominion over fish, what else could you use fish for, other than to eat?

And again stormdancer, you are my sister in Christ, and surely you agree with me that Hovind is wrong for saying that it's heresy, or that a person loses salvation, if they believe animals died before the fall of Adam. Death entered the human race via Adam's sin, and Christ came to die for our sins and to bring us from death, but animals are irrelevant on the issue. He did not die for the sins of animals.

God never told Adam and Eve to eat meat, humans were vegetarians until the time of Noah. After the flood God said

All animals, birds, reptiles, and fish will be afraid of you. I have placed them under your control, and I have given them to you for food. From now on, you may eat them, as well as the green plants that you have always eaten. Gen 9:2-3

 

[BC1990]

God never told Adam and Eve to eat meat, humans were vegetarians until the time of Noah. After the flood God said

Good point, I forgot about that verse. Nevertheless, couldn't animals have still eaten other animals before that?

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

Good point, I forgot about that verse. Nevertheless, couldn't animals have still eaten other animals before that?

Very possible, the Bible doesn't say its more concerned with people then animals for the most part.

 

[BC1990]

Very possible, the Bible doesn't say its more concerned with people then animals for the most part.

That's how I feel about it too.

Even if a person holds to the view that animals were vegetarians before the fall of Adam, to be so dogmatic about it like some people are, as I mentioned, is very dividing to the church.

Let me just finish with saying that CHRIST should be where our minds and hearts are. Praise Him for all He's given us!

 

[stormdancer0]

All animals were vegetarians - before the FALL, not before the flood. It was Adam and Eve's sin that caused death to come into the world.

I think such an insignificant thing is utterly stupid to argue about with any strong emotion at all, especially anger.

BC1990, I am in 100% agreement with you - our minds, our thoughts, our hearts and our actions should be totally consumed with Christ. This stuff is interesting, and when I get to Heaven, I want to ask about it, but it is not a concern right now. We need to be getting people saved, not arguing over the diets of animals 6000 (or more) years ago.