Theistic Evolution is Unbiblical!

[Biliskner]

i'm kindof discouraged that neither vance's geocentricism nor my recent slavery analogies seem to interest people. perhaps i am just plain unclear in presentation.

the text of genesis is narrative. read my link.
www. grisda.org/origins/21005.htm

geocentrisicism is not from genesis.
slavery is not from genesis (this is NOT the thread to argue slavery.)

These high order principles are built out of Scripture via the process of hermeneutics under the control of exegetical ideas.

You articulate that so well. So what makes Genesis so poetic and not narrative? Show me how Genesis is like the Psalms from the Hebrew language, that is your hermeneutics that i employ, as requested by you.

One very interesting one is that the more liberal group make reference to higher order principles and the more conservative make reference to textual matters.

Wrong.
I am a Young Earth Creationist.
Why?
Because Evolution is invalid.
Why?
1. Circular Reasoning.
2. Non scientific (first of all it is UNFALSIFIABLE).

I am a YEC looking at a ... err... as you put it: "higher order of principles".
I see that the only conscise worldview that you can hold is a YEC, 'cos if death occurred before Adam sinned then what did Jesus Christ die for? Did he die for an "allegory" of sin? Am I going to an "allergory" of the New Creation?
All the TEs answers to these questions are muffled and convoluted like spagetti. I find very conscise answers in "Creationism" - I do not need to reinterpret Scripture passages like Romans 5 to mean something that it doesn't mean.

in particular, the more conservative side of each of these issues makes the much better textual case, but in both geocentricism and slavery, with only a small minority continuing to defend either, the entire Church has embraced the more liberal, higher principle argument. Why? what makes these principles more important than the text itself?

huh? explain?

another thing that makes them interesting analogies to the CED debate is that we have both the history and writings of the church as it defended geocentricism and slavery, even those remnant communities that still do, and we can see that their arguments are exactly the same ones posed by AiG and the YECists towards TE and OEC. even to the point of using the very same names-compromises, capitulation, liberal. etc.

ok now this argument may be valid. I understand your endearment to the historical errors of the church, but remember that the church is run by humans, and humans are the best of all creatures on earth to err.

that said, you TEs CANNOT say that Genesis is POETIC. because in the Hebrew IT IS NOT.
that's my argument.

that is the serve vance has consistently done for this group in quoting the remnant geocentrics and how they respond to the group to their immediate right-the YECs.

i predict the rise of a new paradigm, with the fall of Darwinian theory very soon. but hey I'm no prophet.
(just look into genetic research and awe at the non-Darwinian-"ism" of our DNA - it's amazing.)

it is also the continual cry from the South addressed to the northern churches, you have capitulated to the spirit of the times, to the french revolution's doctrine of the equality of all mankind, in the face of the clear Biblical principles of hierarchical authority etc.....

Genesis is narrative... genesis is narrative... genesis is narrative... read the Hebrew. sorry just copying your dogma



"morning and evening", 7 million years.
evolution wins.


good night.

 

[gluadys]

errrr....

Ro. 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

creation changed in physical nature 'cos in the beginning nothing was made to die (ie: no death in the world). now that sin is in the world, God subjected the creation to the "bondage and decay". and thus it "eagerly" awaits restoration.

why would creation wait for restoration if death was around before Adam sinned? that makes no sense.

First, the text you quoted does not mention whether or not there was death in nature prior to its bondage to decay. So we cannot make the assumption that there was no natural death. In fact, all the evidence indicates that death preceded the fall by billions of years.

Second, if we go back to Genesis and look at what it says there about animals and plants in the garden of Eden, does it not say that animals eat plants? Does it not follow from this that animals digest the plants they eat? You do know what the end product of digestion is, don’t you? Do you really believe that not one single turd ever decayed until after the fall?

And what about the plants themselves? Did no leaf ever fall from a tree? What happened to leaves on the ground? What happened to acorn shells which squirrels tossed away in order to eat the nut inside?

How did fungi live—since many of them derive their nutrients from decaying matter, or are decay agents themselves?

Assuming animals were obeying the command to be fruitful and multiply, what was happening to such no longer needed items as cocoons, egg shells and placentas? Did they continue to litter the ground without decaying?

Paul is obviously speaking of a different sort of “bondage to decay” than the simple and necessary process of decay in the natural cycle of life and death.

questions for you:

HOW do you interpret that passage of Romans?

I take it to refer to the intimate connection of humanity with the earth, such that the fall of humanity entails futility and bondage for the earth, because it breaks the spiritual connection between humanity and nature which is essential to fulfil the creation mandate to rule and care for creation. The breaking of this spiritual connection has led humanity into a rule of terror and exploitation of nature rather than a rule of wisdom and care. The redemption of humanity will renew a right relationship between humanity and the earth, and so liberate the earth from the oppressive reign of sinful humanity.

do you believe that you'll live forever in heaven?

No. I believe I will live forever in the kingdom of heaven which Christ will establish on earth when he returns.

do you believe there will be any death and decay?

No.

How do you deal with Romans 5:12

Figuratively. We are all born naturally in Adam (the one man who brought sin into the world) and we can all be born again in Christ (the one man who takes away sin.) In Adam we all die. In Christ we live. In these passages, Adam and Christ are both archetypes of humanity as a whole.

 

[shernren]

Wrong.
I am a Young Earth Creationist.
Why?
Because Evolution is invalid.
Why?
1. Circular Reasoning.
2. Non scientific (first of all it is UNFALSIFIABLE).

Ooh. That's really funny. As far as I can see, evolution is "unfalsifiable" only to the extent that the predictions it makes really haven't been falsified. Hmm. Now if you want an unfalsifiable theory to ditch, try YECism, which seems to be saying "God can make anything He wants, look like anything He wants it to, simply because He wants it to." Hmm. And the character of God fits in where?

 

[rmwilliamsll]

i predict the rise of a new paradigm, with the fall of Darwinian theory very soon. but hey I'm no prophet.
(just look into genetic research and awe at the non-Darwinian-"ism" of our DNA - it's amazing.)


i have a hard earned degree in biochemistry and have no idea of what you mean by the non-darwinianism of our DNA.

would you offer specifics?
....

 

[Biliskner]

Ooh. That's really funny. As far as I can see, evolution is "unfalsifiable" only to the extent that the predictions it makes really haven't been falsified. Hmm. Now if you want an unfalsifiable theory to ditch, try YECism, which seems to be saying "God can make anything He wants, look like anything He wants it to, simply because He wants it to." Hmm. And the character of God fits in where?

evolution "haven't been falsified"?
ummm... l m a o?

http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/10mut10.htm
+ more to come.

 

[Biliskner]

i predict the rise of a new paradigm, with the fall of Darwinian theory very soon. but hey I'm no prophet.
(just look into genetic research and awe at the non-Darwinian-"ism" of our DNA - it's amazing.)


i have a hard earned degree in biochemistry and have no idea of what you mean by the non-darwinianism of our DNA.

would you offer specifics?
....

not really.
i haven't had any of my q's answered, so why would I?
I guess i'm invoking Proverbs 26:4.
I'm going now to pray instead.

 

[Biliskner]

First, the text you quoted does not mention whether or not there was death in nature prior to its bondage to decay. So we cannot make the assumption that there was no natural death. In fact, all the evidence indicates that death preceded the fall by billions of years.

Second, if we go back to Genesis and look at what it says there about animals and plants in the garden of Eden, does it not say that animals eat plants? Does it not follow from this that animals digest the plants they eat? You do know what the end product of digestion is, don’t you? Do you really believe that not one single turd ever decayed until after the fall?

And what about the plants themselves? Did no leaf ever fall from a tree? What happened to leaves on the ground? What happened to acorn shells which squirrels tossed away in order to eat the nut inside?

How did fungi live—since many of them derive their nutrients from decaying matter, or are decay agents themselves?

Assuming animals were obeying the command to be fruitful and multiply, what was happening to such no longer needed items as cocoons, egg shells and placentas? Did they continue to litter the ground without decaying?

Paul is obviously speaking of a different sort of “bondage to decay” than the simple and necessary process of decay in the natural cycle of life and death.

good questions to bring up (not the first time i've heard it) and they are admirable questions... however, the problem then becomes "because i cannot imagine it, it mustn't have happened that way, or it cannot be like that" - can you imagine the New Creation? a life of eternity without death? seriously? if you can, then why can't you imagine the Garden? if you can't, then you're posing questions that box yourself in. - what will happen to a piece of poo in the New Creation? will there be poo?
that's my answer. good questions though.

an article not quite on topic, but of some interest...

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v24/i4/humans.asp

Figuratively. We are all born naturally in Adam (the one man who brought sin into the world) and we can all be born again in Christ (the one man who takes away sin.) In Adam we all die. In Christ we live. In these passages, Adam and Christ are both archetypes of humanity as a whole.

i agree with you on the most part... BUT:
there is one problem of your figurative exegesis (i'm not even sure if those words should be used in the same sentence) - but if bondage and decay have always been there (pre-Adam-Fall), then why does Paul say that Christ comes to liberate this bondage and decay?

you say Paul is refering to obviously "something else" - err, no it IS NOT obvious - exactly what is this "bondage and decay" in your understanding??

Ro. 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

if death (+ bondage + decay) reigned for millions of years, then Adam was made by God, then Adam sins and there is simply just more of this 'bondage and decay' ... then Christ comes to redeem Adam's race (us)... Romans 8:21 makes absolutely no sense... and I haven't included the bit:

Ro. 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope...

because God does not need to subject a world already in bondage and decay into a state of .... errr .... bondage and decay. surely what you see around you (i don't know about where you live, but the bondage and decay i see around here where i live includes road kills) shows you that death is an intruder in this world, and not part of the 'good creation' as first made by God, whether that be Spiritual or Natural death, they're both not so independent of each other, after all, God makes the "natural world" first and calls it good before breathing his Spirit in his Created Image.

 

[Didaskomenos]

Biliskner, what is the question you most want answered, and I'll give it a shot.

 

[shernren]

Biliskner,

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section5.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910_1.html

teehee.

Interesting theoretical question for you Biliskner: assuming a historical veracity for Genesis 1-11, and assuming per impossibile that the Fall never happened, would there be animal death on a perfect Earth? If not or otherwise, was there reproduction? And if there was reproduction without animal death how on Earth (punintended) would God have handled the problem of massive animal overpopulation?

 

[Biliskner]

Interesting theoretical question for you Biliskner: assuming a historical veracity for Genesis 1-11, and assuming per impossibile that the Fall never happened, would there be animal death on a perfect Earth? If not or otherwise, was there reproduction? And if there was reproduction without animal death how on Earth (punintended) would God have handled the problem of massive animal overpopulation?

another one that my friends at theological college have brought up with me

umm... a good theoretical question, and the real answer is: "i don't know".
here's a theoretical answer - sterilization?

as i said (not sure if it's in this thread might be in another 'evolution' thread) but can anyone REALLY imagine the New Creation? bodies that ARE INDEED immortal? no death? life eternity with the LORD GOD? that God Himself is the Light Source of the New Creation? I can't. can you imagine a world with no death? I can't. Can You Imagine Jesus rising to New Life? I can't. But the Scriptures say otherwise, doesn't it, concerning all those issues.
Our God is a Triune God - can anyone understand that? What happened to the Trinity when Christ died? - can you guys imagine that?

Point - Just because you cannot imagine it, that does not mean it can't be done.

Mt. 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

A camel through the eye of a needle... impossible? Yeah, only if you don't know our Lord God.

Overpopulation is just a small "problem" - there are bigger ones at hand, like that of physics - "would the rate of fusion in the Sun still undergo entropy if the world was not stained by sin?" (which would imply that God made the world to come to an end - 'cos the sun would burn all its fuel - but He didn't in the beginning - things were to "be" for eternity - like that of the New Creation which we all look forward to).

 

[Biliskner]

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910_1.html

"Biological classification is hierarchical; when a new species evolves, it branches at the very lowermost level, and it remains part of all groups it is already in. Anything that evolves from a fruit fly, no matter how much it diverges, would still be classified as a fruit fly, a dipteran, an insect, an arthropod, an animal, and so forth. "

if i understand that correctly they're saying that things DO NOT evolve. that's kind of funny. i'm not sure if the site is supposed to support hardcore creationism or hardcore evolution (i don't even know which way it leans!) lmao. good site, kind of amusing

 

[Biliskner]

Biliskner, what is the question you most want answered, and I'll give it a shot.

mmm... if I were to get married, what color would my wife's hair be? what kind of troubles will we face? will we have any kids and what will we both be doing for God? will we work together in our work/ministry? will my wife laugh at all my jokes? will she help me in my walk with God? will she see things that I would not normally see? would she follow me "to the ends of the earth" no matter the circumstances? will she see me as head of the household and submit to my authority? will she be faithful to me and to God? will our relationship mirror that of abraham and sarah's relationship?

 

[SBG]

As for your last question 'will our relationship mirror that of abraham and sarah's relationship,' first thing that came to mind was, are you going to marry your half-sister? j/k

Oh, wait, I forgot, we really cannot know for certain if Abraham is even a real person, let alone Sarah.

 

[Didaskomenos]

mmm... if I were to get married, what color would my wife's hair be? what kind of troubles will we face? will we have any kids and what will we both be doing for God? will we work together in our work/ministry? will my wife laugh at all my jokes? will she help me in my walk with God? will she see things that I would not normally see? would she follow me "to the ends of the earth" no matter the circumstances? will she see me as head of the household and submit to my authority? will she be faithful to me and to God? will our relationship mirror that of abraham and sarah's relationship?

Chromatic. Divers and sundry. Your labor in the vineyard of the Lord will produce much fruit - some good, some bad. If you don't work together in some sense, there's something wrong. She will not laugh at all your jokes, and not even both of the funny ones. God can use her to help you in your walk with God if you don't rely on her, but Him. She will definitely notice the kick-me sign should you unwittingly come home from work wearing one. She will not follow you to the ends of the earth, because the earth has no ends and thus you yourself cannot go there yourself. She will, at very least, see you thinking you are the head of the household and that she should submit. At times, she will be faithful to God - that is, when she is not being faithful to you. The last question I do not know: will you be willing to let a powerful person spend the night with her? Twice?

 

[gluadys]

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910_1.html

"Biological classification is hierarchical; when a new species evolves, it branches at the very lowermost level, and it remains part of all groups it is already in. Anything that evolves from a fruit fly, no matter how much it diverges, would still be classified as a fruit fly, a dipteran, an insect, an arthropod, an animal, and so forth. "

if i understand that correctly they're saying that things DO NOT evolve. that's kind of funny. i'm not sure if the site is supposed to support hardcore creationism or hardcore evolution (i don't even know which way it leans!) lmao. good site, kind of amusing

Yes, they are saying things evolve, because the living species (represented by the tip of the branch) is not the same as the ancestral species back at the branching point.

The quote is actually referring to a common communication problem that occurs in these conversations:

Creationist: One species cannot evolve into another.

Evolutionist: But we have observed that one species can evolve into another.

C: Show me!

E: See this population of Drosophila (fruit flies) changed into this other species of Drosophila.

C: So what? They are still fruit flies! They haven't really changed into something different.

This kind of communication block occurs when non-scientists are unaware of how large and differentiated a group may be, even when it is called by a single name. Most people (and not just creationists) think of "fruit fly" as referring to a group like "zebra" i.e. as a single species or a small group of closely related species like "zebra and horse".

In fact, there are over 4500 different species of fruit fly. That is more than the total number of mammal species (about 4000). So responding to the observation that a new species of Drosophila is "still a fruit fly" is about as meaningful as saying that a new species of mouse is "still a mammal". Sure, it is still part of the broad group---why wouldn't it be? But it is also a new species.

Evolution doesn't work by generating new species which belong on different branches of the "tree of life" but by creating new species on each branch.

 

[kofh2u]

KOFHY:
Hi mr mhess,
You do a good job in opposing evolution.
However, you take for granted a number of vaguely defined and perhaps not really understood bible concepts.

People think they understand them, though they must define them surrealistically and in the unreal metaphysics long with religion.

To answer your arguments, many of these basic concepts must be specifically stated.

mhess13:
Evolution is not compatible with the Bible.

KOFHY:
Yes it is.

mhess13:
There could not have been millions of years of death before sin.

KOFHY:
Sin?
You do not define this.

I assume you refer to the original sin, which was something unique with the evolution of man, Adam.

mhess13:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

KOFHY:
Theistic Evolutionists understand sin as inherent in the devrlopment of Free Will which was the by-product of the evolution of Consciousness. Specifically, human Consciousness, 24/7.

mhess13:
MAN introduced death into the world because of sin.

KOFHY:
First, nothing alive today was ever dead.
The division of already existing protoplasm, through mitosis/miosis merely multiplies and produces replicas of the "parent" organism.

Second, death is a concept, and Human Consciousness "manufactured" the concept, one not present in other life forms. All life is a flower on the genetic vine, and from the pool of the human genome, our recreation is promised and rationally possible.

mhess13:

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death (as a concept) reigned from Adam (the first conscious humanoid) to Moses, (Modern Homo sapiens) even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, (selfishness), who is the figure of him that was to come, (the unselfish shepherd who lays down his life for us).
Parenthesis added to make the point:

mhess13:
If evolution is true, slow gradual changes over millions of years of death brought man into the world.

KOFHY:
Seems to follow clearly from above.

mhess13:
The Bible and evolution are teaching 2 different things. Note that the Bible calls death an enemy.

KOFHY:
No way!
Evolution and what you interpret from the text of the bible, you mean. mEvolution IS totally supported by scripture.

mhess13:
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

KOFHY:
ABSOLUTELY!
The next ebolution will be Total Consciousness!

In our phylofenetic memory we have ALL of the history of our species locked up today in the Unconscious Mind:

Jung said, "the form of the world into which a person is born is already inborn in him, as a virtual image." (Jung, 1953, pg. 188)

The Collective Unconscious then contains the entire catalog of experiences that have marked human evolution, and it is repeated in the brain of every human being in every generation.

mhess13:
When reading 1COR15 you can clearly see that PHYSICAL death is being discussed and it is described as an enemy that Christ has defeated through his resurrection.

KOFHY:
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

Theistic Evolutionists read 1Co 15 like this:

1Corinthians 15:20-24[/b]

"But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep (in the facility of their Unconscious Mind). For since by a man came death (in partial and premature consciousness), by a man also came the (first) resurrection of the dead (or sleeping world of phylogenetic memory). For as in Adam, (partial consciousness), all (previous phylogenetic memories) die, so also in Christ all will be made (awakened), alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits (of awakened Conscience), after that those who are (awakened to the same Conscience as) Christ's at His coming, (true Christians, Homoiousian sapiens), then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom (of mind within) to the God and Father (imaged in the trinity of our Conscious Mind, Subconscious Mind, and Unconscious Mind), when He has abolished (the in the Free Will of the Conscious Mind) all rule and all authority and power." - 1Corinthians 15:20-24

mhess13:
So then you cannot have death in the world (as evolution teaches) millions of years before Adam's sin. BOTH EVOLUTION AND THE BIBLE CANNOT BE TRUE-they teach different things!

KOFHY:
I think you misinterpret Scripture, and do not reflect upon our current knowledge. mYou start with archaic theological metaphysical ideas the require irrationalities and demand acquiescence to very old surrealistc inventions needed in those days to explain what is only,now explainable.

mhess13:
Rom 8:18-19

KOFHY:
Here's how TE Christians underdtand Rom 8:18-9

Rom. 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time (in
this present genetic incarnation), are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us (in our next genetic re-manufacturing).

Rom. 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature, (Modern Homo sapiens), waiteth for the (evolving) manifestation of the sons of God, (the next step for mankind, Homoiousian sapiens).

mhess13:
Because of death and sin the whole creation is futile according to the Bible. Rom 8:20-22

KOFHY:

Rom. 8:20 For the creature, (Modern Homo sapiens), was (innately) made subject to vanity (of selfishness), not willingly, but by reason of him, (the first Adam), who hath subjected (himself to) the same, (a self centeredness) in hope (of survival),

Rom. 8:21 Because the creature, (Modern Homo sapiens), itself also
shall be delivered from the (personal) bondage of (sociological)
corruption (resulting from an enculturated collective selfishness) into the glorious liberty of the children of God, (the next step for mankind, Homoiousian sapiens).

Rom. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation (of mankind) groaneth and travaileth in pain (of individual selfish methods aimed at survival of the fittest), together, until now.

Rom. 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the
firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
waiting for the adoption (by the mass of men), to wit, the redemption of our body (from their selfish persecution).


mhess13:
But we know that during the Millennial Reign of Christ...

KOFHY:
TE Christians recognize the millennium of 1000 years of the Dark Age has historically past:

Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto (590 AD), the end (of Roman anarchy and chaos, until the reign of GREGORY I, 590-604 AD, who shall represent to the Roman world of Western Europe, a church that will still be identified with the empire), the same shall be saved (from the persecution of Jews, and the elimination of pagans during the formation of Universal Roman Christianity).

mhess13:
Or if you are an amillennialist during the new heavens and the new earth; the creation will be restored.

KOFHY:
ABSOLUTELY TRUE!

Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven (of Total Consciousness) and a new earth (from the sociological behaviors resulting) thereafter: for the first heaven (of semi-consciousness) and the first earth (of Paganistic practices) were passed away; and there was no more sea (of unconscious
behavior).

mhess13:
DEATH because of sin is what wrecked the creation.

KOFHY:
No, death is a Vonscious Mind construct. It is not clearly understood, and it ignores the genetic mind.

mhess13:
THEISTIC evolution seriously downplays the fall of man.

KOFHY:
No.
The evolution of free will in the development of Consciousness was the ultimate problem here.

mhess13:
Without a clear understanding of how huge the Fall was, how can we fully grasp the work of the atonement?

KOFHY:
EXACTLY!
Theologians have failed to define this, some alluding to "apples" while other vaguely describe some war in "heaven."

mhess13:
Evolution wars against the plan of salvation.

KOFHY:
No way!

Evolution is "God becoming, manifest with men..." or, the Hebrew of YHVH.

Revelation 21:4-5 And God, (blessing them with Total Consciousness: [Carl Jung]), shall wipe away, (in their awakened Unconscious Mind: [Freudian Hypothesis]), all tears from their eyes, (for life is a genetically rememberable continuum from one generation to the next living generation); and (in genetic memories of prior existences held in our Unconscious Mind) there shall be no more death (though we shall all "sleep:" [1Co15]), neither sorrow (for we, individually, are part of a living continuum of our own pasts), nor crying (for we are happy in these revelations), neither shall there be any more pain (as circumvented by hypnosis today): for the former things (in Modern Homo sapiens life experience) are passed away.
And he, (the ancient, phylogenetic, Collective Unconscious Mind), that sat upon the throne (of the Homoiousian sapiens' brain) said, Behold, (in this way) I make all things (in human experience) new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true (rational, and scientifically feasible) and (worthy of) faithful (belief).

 

[SBG]

I wonder if mhess actually wants to be allowed to speak, or do you prefer a quiet opponent where you can just dictate to about how they are wrong?

 

[shernren]

Kofhy, I am deeply suspicious as to how orthodox that piece of stuff you just posted is. Evolution does not need to be defended in this manner.

 

[kofh2u]

Kofhy, I am deeply suspicious as to how orthodox that piece of stuff you just posted is. Evolution does not need to be defended in this manner.

1) KOFHYis defending the Bible, not particularly the implicit invlusion of Evolution found significantly enough mentioned orballuded to.


2) Can you be more specific in saying, "I am deeply suspicious as to how orthodox that piece of stuff you just posted is."

Do you mean conventional?
Traditional?
Or is there something that denies Christ, crucified?

Is it a matter of understanding scriptural interpretation or salvation?

Please be more concise so I may answer you directly.

 

[Biliskner]

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death (as a concept) reigned from Adam (the first conscious humanoid) to Moses, (Modern Homo sapiens) even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, (selfishness), who is the figure of him that was to come, (the unselfish shepherd who lays down his life for us).
Parenthesis added to make the point:

Theistic Evolutionists read 1Co 15 like this:

1Corinthians 15:20-24[/b]

"But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep (in the facility of their Unconscious Mind). For since by a man came death (in partial and premature consciousness), by a man also came the (first) resurrection of the dead (or sleeping world of phylogenetic memory). For as in Adam, (partial consciousness), all (previous phylogenetic memories) die, so also in Christ all will be made (awakened), alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits (of awakened Conscience), after that those who are (awakened to the same Conscience as) Christ's at His coming, (true Christians, Homoiousian sapiens), then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom (of mind within) to the God and Father (imaged in the trinity of our Conscious Mind, Subconscious Mind, and Unconscious Mind), when He has abolished (the in the Free Will of the Conscious Mind) all rule and all authority and power." - 1Corinthians 15:20-24

KOFHY:

Rom. 8:20 For the creature, (Modern Homo sapiens), was (innately) made subject to vanity (of selfishness), not willingly, but by reason of him, (the first Adam), who hath subjected (himself to) the same, (a self centeredness) in hope (of survival),

Rom. 8:21 Because the creature, (Modern Homo sapiens), itself also
shall be delivered from the (personal) bondage of (sociological)
corruption (resulting from an enculturated collective selfishness) into the glorious liberty of the children of God, (the next step for mankind, Homoiousian sapiens).

Rom. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation (of mankind) groaneth and travaileth in pain (of individual selfish methods aimed at survival of the fittest), together, until now.

Rom. 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the
firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
waiting for the adoption (by the mass of men), to wit, the redemption of our body (from their selfish persecution).

Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto (590 AD), the end (of Roman anarchy and chaos, until the reign of GREGORY I, 590-604 AD, who shall represent to the Roman world of Western Europe, a church that will still be identified with the empire), the same shall be saved (from the persecution of Jews, and the elimination of pagans during the formation of Universal Roman Christianity).

Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven (of Total Consciousness) and a new earth (from the sociological behaviors resulting) thereafter: for the first heaven (of semi-consciousness) and the first earth (of Paganistic practices) were passed away; and there was no more sea (of unconscious
behavior).

Revelation 21:4-5 And God, (blessing them with Total Consciousness: [Carl Jung]), shall wipe away, (in their awakened Unconscious Mind: [Freudian Hypothesis]), all tears from their eyes, (for life is a genetically rememberable continuum from one generation to the next living generation); and (in genetic memories of prior existences held in our Unconscious Mind) there shall be no more death (though we shall all "sleep:" [1Co15]), neither sorrow (for we, individually, are part of a living continuum of our own pasts), nor crying (for we are happy in these revelations), neither shall there be any more pain (as circumvented by hypnosis today): for the former things (in Modern Homo sapiens life experience) are passed away.
And he, (the ancient, phylogenetic, Collective Unconscious Mind), that sat upon the throne (of the Homoiousian sapiens' brain) said, Behold, (in this way) I make all things (in human experience) new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true (rational, and scientifically feasible) and (worthy of) faithful (belief).

now there's an incorporation of New Age Monotheistic Pantheism, Buddhism, and Gnostic Christianity for you !!!