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Theistic Evolution is Unbiblical!

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Calminian

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rmwilliamsll said:
Where i am going is to try to understand not just what the hermeneutic is and how to use it in both public and private Bible study, but specifically how not to use it as it involves several places where it has lead to erronous conclusions: the age of the earth, slavery, geocentricism.

Here we go with the geocentrism strawman. And now you're laying slavery at the feet of literalism.

Both slavery and geocentrism have nothing to do with a literal approach to the bible. Slavery in particular had to do with a lack of understanding of the term as it was used in bible. As I mentioned before, slavery in ANE culture and slavery legislation in the Bible were initiated by the slave. (This fact may also be helpful in understanding the metaphorical used of the term in the N.T. when wrestling with issues like free will.) A literal reading of the Bible does not support the type of slavery that went on in early america—specifically men being made slaves, not by their own will, but by the will of another.

Geocentrism OTOH is never mentioned in scripture. It does mention sunsets and rises and relative movement, but nothing about orbiting patterns of objects in space. It is literally true that the sun stopped in Joshua's time from our point of reference. There is no literal problem here. Modern astrophysicists use terms like sunset and sunrise and they do so accurately.

rmwilliamsll said:
It is this level where the Princetonian hermeneutic has a weakness. The concentration that many have at criticizing a wooden overly literally hermeneutic misses its mark,

The problem was not wooden literalism either. It's a simple matter of a lack of understanding of God's Word as a whole, and probably some stubbornness in wanting to be compatible with modern majority thinking.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Both slavery and geocentrism have nothing to do with a literal approach to the bible

i have read at least 200 sermons from the antebellum South and greatly disagree with you. try looking at a few of my references online:

http://www.ysursa.com/history/Reference pages/civil war/proslavery_defense.htm
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text...ext;idno=ABT8113.0001.001;view=image;seq=0001
http://www.christianethicstoday.com...ons of Slavery By William E. Hull_043_05_.htm
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cach...merican civil war" presbyterian history&hl=en

all the best believing scholarship i have read over the last year i've been at this study says that the hermeneutic is the crucial element in the puzzle.

i have a reading list at:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...8/ref=cm_aya_av.sylt_sylt/002-1766950-5229600
that might help with your studies on the topic as well.
if you are interested perhaps there is a better place to take the discussion, rather than to hijack this thread.

.....
 
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Calminian

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rmwilliamsll said:

What exactly is it you disagree with? I said american slavery and biblical slavery are two different things and the Bible doesn't support american slavery. You disagree with that??

rmwilliamsll said:
all the best believing scholarship i have read over the last year i've been at this study says that the hermeneutic is the crucial element in the puzzle.

Who in the world said anything about hermeneutics? Are you confusing the terms hermeneutic with literalism? A good hermeneutical approach is the find out the meaning of words as the biblical writers understood them. Don't you agree?

rmwilliamsll said:
if you are interested perhaps there is a better place to take the discussion, rather than to hijack this thread.

The issue in this thread is a figurative vs. a literal approach to Genesis. This seems to be pretty much on target but I’ll let the OPer decide if it’s off topic.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Who in the world said anything about hermeneutics? Are you confusing the terms hermeneutic with literalism? A good hermeneutical approach is the find out the meaning of words as the biblical writers understood them. Don't you agree?


it is hermeneutics that describes the process of going from words to meaning. Usually i think of the words "extract meaning" but i am finding i dislike that way of expressing the hermeneutical task. Literalism is either a particular hermeneutical technic for (instance the) narrative genre or a style/genre within a specific hermeneutic, take your pick. It is not a full blow hermeneutic itself(hence the reason figurative or allegorical often is opposed to literal), but rather a part of one.

"the meaning of the words in the context of the first writers/readers" is one crucial element of the grammatical-historical hermeneutic, perhaps even it's most distinguishing mark. (usually as opposed to critical-grammatical hermeneutical theories)

What exactly is it you disagree with? I said american slavery and biblical slavery are two different things and the Bible doesn't support american slavery. You disagree with that??

this is the way Noll describes as the 3rd way:
A third, and the most complicated, response was held by some abolitionists and moderate emancipationists. They conceded that, while the Bible did indeed sanction a form of slavery, careful attention to the text of Scripture itself would show that the simple presence of slavery in the Bible was not a necessary justification for slavery as it existed in the United States. ... this argument required a movement from the words of the Bible to theories about how the Bible should be applied to modern life, and it often seemed indistinguishable from the next response. (The fourth response) was to distinguish between the letter of the Bible (which might be construed to allow slavery) and the spirit of the Bible (which everywhere worked against the institution)."

it is also the way most of the online defenders of Scripture seem to answer their opponents who use slavery as an example of the evil that can be incorporated into or justified by religion. see: tektonics and j.p.holdings arguments (unable to find the links online to post)
essentially their argument revolves around the word slavery, like the creation-evolution debate often revolves around the word 'yom'. What does it mean? the problem is that meaning is contextual and hermeneutics supplies the rules for building that context.

what the problem is that simply stating that slavery(OT/NT) != slavery(american south) does not explain the passion with which the institution was defended by the church and her ablest theologians. nor does it get to the heart of their arguments. it remains on the surface without looking at the deeper issues, which is unsatisfactory, at least to me.

likewise i find H.Ross's arguments that day(24 hrs) != day(ages) lacking for exactly the same reasons. thus why the extension of the ced debate into geocentricism and slavery seem so natural to me, same arguments, same crucial hermeneutics, same problems. just different domains.
(in geocentricism the argument is: set stands still != geocentricism due to 1)cultural elements 2)language of appearance )


...
 
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Biliskner

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rmwilliamsll said:
1-how would Adam have known what the curse meant if he didn't see death? it would be simply an empty hollow word.
...

I haven't seen resurrection. Yet it is not a hollow word to me. Is that your argument?

rmwilliamsll said:
2-if Jesus' sacrifice undoes physical death then why isn't my pet dog saved? he has the breath of life, is a vertebrate, etc etc.
...

it undoes physical death? where in Scripture does it say so?

rmwilliamsll said:
3-if Jesus' sacrifice undoes physical human death then why did all the apostles die and all Christians since then?
rmwilliamsll said:
again no idea where that one is coming from.

rmwilliamsll said:
It takes some time and effort to work through the issues, but i expect that a close examination of AiG's no death before the fall will convince anyone that the curse means the separation of body and soul which is just one symptom of physical death in human beings alone, being the only creature in the image of God and possessing a soul.
...

AiG's no death before the fall is not AiG's conjecture. It is God's, as seen in the OT, and NT.
 
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Biliskner

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rmwilliamsll said:
This issue of 'death before the fall' is such an interesting one that i'd like to take a moment and look it.

It is such an easy argument to deflect that i am actually surprised that AiG makes such a big deal about it. If you look at the command of God to Adam not to eat of the tree something else emerges from the context that is a much better argument against TE. I have often wondered why AiG doesn't switch to it.

If death must be something that Adam is familiar with in order for the command's sanctions to have meaning, the converse is a problem. If Adam is the result in some way of evolutionary processes then he is aware of death and deals in a culture that is aware of death. Then the command's sanctions are not of sufficient force, since Adam would already be expecting to die as did his ancestors. This is a far stronger criticism of TE then the 'no death before the fall'.

...


that argument is flawed on so many metaphysical levels.

i have paygan friends that say: "without evil you can't see good so for good to exist you must have evil first" and on first impression that indeed looks impressive, but from Scripture, what is good is what God says is good, nothing more, nothing less. God says, it happens, and God says it is good. winner.

i have a suggestion: AiG is "asserting" no death before Fall because... not because it's a "good philosophical argument" to be dogmatic about, but maybe (just maybe) that it might be... true?

do you believe we will have Eternal Life in the Kingdom of Jesus Christ?
or do we live just 1000000x more than today so it "just" looks like eternity????

and if you believe in eternal life why? have you see it? the way you say Adam "had" to witness death before he understood "the word" in its fullness?
 
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Biliskner

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gluadys said:
Yes, I do disagree. I have not seen a biblical basis for this assertion.

I do, here it is:

Ro. 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God
to be revealed.
Ro. 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Ro. 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Ro. 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
Ro. 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Amen.
 
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Biliskner

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rmwilliamsll said:
you might as well make eating eggplant wrong since it is purple and not green. after all God gave green things to eat, not purple.....
...

the photosynthetic tissue of the eggplant is green. i believe they call that the tubular structure that we fry (mmm!) and eat - IE: potatoes.

green=photosynthetic=energy for plant=plant (by Gen1-2 defintion).
green=photosynthetic=energy for plant=eggplant grows=plant.

p.s. don't eat the leaves of potato plants and/or green potatoes 'cos the alkaloids have fatal effects :thumbsup:
 
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Biliskner

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mhess13 said:
Boy are you really thinking to much TRYING to complicate simple verses.

tell me about it. i'm getting more of a headache trying to follow some of these ... errrrrrr...... "expository" Bible readings than i am thinking about measuing gravity waves from quantum fluctuations that distort the very fabric of space-time creating a moebius strip.
 
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Biliskner

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gluadys said:
But as history or science, they simply do not cut the mustard.

The Word of God (including all of Genesis) is a double-edge sword. If it can't cut mustard I don't know how it is going to cut into the heart's of evil men.
 
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Biliskner

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grmorton said:
Given that dogmatism is adherence to a belief system or set of dogma, science is anything but dogmatic. It is just following evidence.

that might be true during the time of Galileo and Newton but science has been polluted like a stinky river over the past 3 centuries.
the only "pure" science i see now is physics, and perhaps (maybe) mathematics/chemistry. the geological/biological science however are debatable (with exceptions of lab based biology, cutting up rats; gene experimentation; growing plants)

the facts DO NOT speak for themselves, esp. true for fossils and geological strata. they MUST be interpreted. and that involves humans. unfortunately anything involving humans is biased.

when one digs up an ape tooth, it does not say "i am 6 million years old" and that should be enough to make any geologist/archaeologist a skeptic.
 
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Biliskner

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Evolution is NOT science. It is dogma. Why? Because it is NOT Falsifiable. It is also circular reasoning.

"The fossil is dated by the rock layer it is in. The rock layer is dated by the fossil that is in it. Evolution was assumed when the column was built. Now the column supports evolution!"

Yes...
 
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rmwilliamsll

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here is another interesting essay that points to a particular hermeneutic as being the key point in the defense of Southern slavery

Slavery has proved to be the most challenging moral issue in the history of the United States. It prompted secession, which threatened to split the Union into competing nations. It precipitated the most costly war that we have ever fought, drenching our own soil in the blood, not of enemies, but of fellow Americans. Its aftermath gave rise to segregation, which poisoned the soul of the South for a century. Even now, the spectre of racism is the most powerful shaper of our regional identity. The institution of slavery posed the supreme challenge to Southern religion, a challenge that our ancestral faith miserably failed to meet.

Here, as nowhere else, white southern evangelical Protestantism was tried and found wanting at the judgment bar of history. For our purposes today, the response of Southern religion to the sin of slavery provides a haunting case study of a faith that failed to grow. For this was not an instance of timidity or cowardice, as if the pulpit muted its denunciation of a monstrous evil. On the contrary, the Southern clergy in one voice went to the opposite extreme; vigorously defending slavery as divinely sanctioned. They succeeded in making slavery an article of faith in Southern Christianity, an essential component of its religious worldview. And yet this was a conviction which all of us finds repulsive scarcely more than a century later. Because we are agreed on how the slavery question should be settled, let us ask why our forebears, based on the same Christian faith which many of us share, came to a totally opposite conclusion.
...

Professor Eugene Genovese, who has studied these biblical debates over slavery in minute detail, concludes that the pro-slavery faction clearly emerged victorious over the abolitionists except for one specious argument based on the so-called Curse of Ham (Gen 9:18-27).[2] For our purposes, it is important to realize that the South won this crucial contest with the North by using the prevailing hermeneutic, or method of interpretation, on which both sides agreed. So decisive was its triumph that the South mounted a vigorous counterattack on the abolitionists as infidels who had abandoned the plain words of Scripture for the secular ideology of the Enlightenment. Here is the beginning of that familiar ploy by which those who insist on a literal reading of the text try to bolster their position by suggesting that their opponents are “liberals.”

The debate over biblical slavery was based on a Reformed hermeneutic, which insisted that Scripture was an omnicompetent, infallible authority for life, which should be interpreted literally using common sense.[3] That approach may not be far from the view that some of you hold today. If so, how would you counter those who insist that the Bible sanctioned slavery? Admittedly that question has become somewhat theoretical in our day, but there are many who, like the more extreme abolitionists, are prepared to reject the Bible precisely because it does seem to endorse such reprehensible practices as slavery. The problem here is that the traditional Southern hermeneutic gave to slavery a transcendent justification rooted in sacred Scripture. Bad as it was to claim that slavery was backed by the almighty dollar, Southern preaching succeeded in claiming that it was also backed by Almighty God! Do you have a hermeneutic adequate to challenge that conclusion, or do you just hope that the hard questions will somehow go away?

...

Why was religion unable to serve as a corrective to this repressive cultural consensus? To consider that question we must recognize two trends in the Americanization of Christianity. The first was the democratization of church polity according to which most congregations, especially in the dominant Baptist denomination, had become self-determining with little or no external control by ecclesiastical bodies or clergy hierarchy.[6] The second was the interpretation of the priesthood of the believer in terms of American exceptionalism according to which the Bible was self-interpreting so that ordinary folk using common sense could readily grasp its message for themselves.[7] The practical effects of these trends are described by Genovese with no little irony:

Decade by decade, church leaders frankly acknowledged that the sentiments of the white communities largely determined their response to measures for segregation, disfranchisement, and the politics of race. The capitulation to a community sentiment that, in effect, defied Scripture proved one of the many joys of the steady—indeed endless—democratization of the churches.[8]

What this means is that Southern religion had become such an integral part of the prevailing culture that it was never able to get the critical distance needed to challenge slavery. Pastors were so immediately answerable to their people that they lacked the leverage to fulfill a prophetic role. The church became so enmeshed in the power structure of the day that vox populi had indeed become vox Dei, the voice of the people had become the voice of God, making the pulpit but an echo of the pew.
...

Like Cyrus, Lincoln was forced to use the “terrible swift sword” of war to do his messianic work of deliverance. And what a costly redemption it was! More than 620,000 soldiers lost their lives, more than all the casualties in our nation’s other wars combined from its founding through Vietnam.[15] The South saw twenty-five percent of its white males of military age slaughtered in the carnage.[16] Soon it would endure the agonies of Reconstruction and, to this day more than a century later; it still struggles to gain equal footing with the rest of the nation. But the religious cost was equally great in terms of the loss of credibility. Mark Noll remarks with biting irony of the biblical debates over slavery:

The North—forced to fight on unfriendly terrain that it had helped to create—lost the exegetical war. The South certainly lost the shooting war. But constructive orthodox theology was the major loser when American believers allowed bullets instead of hermenutical self-consciousness to determine what the Bible said about slavery. For the history of theology in America, the great tragedy of the Civil War is that the most persuasive theologians were the Rev. Drs. William Tecumseh Sherman and Ulysses S. Grant.[17]

Clearly this heartbreaking bloodbath would never have been necessary if the evangelical faith of the solid South had been mobilized to solve the slave question by the deepest teachings of its Scriptures on sacrificial love instead of by committing regional suicide without a foreign shot being fired. Does this mean, therefore, that we should simply give up on religion and resort to political and military action to achieve our moral aims? Not at all, for the Christian faith can be a powerful force for constructive change when its teachings are insightfully understood and courageously implemented. Antebellum Southern religion proved ineffective in solving the slave question, not because it was worthless and needed to be discarded, but because it was immature and needed to grow! At a catalytic moment in world history, when market capitalism made possible the substitution of free wage labor for bound labor (and hence the overthrow o slavery), capitalism allowed itself to be caught in a cultural cul-de-sac. It thus forfeited the chance to provide leadership in one of the great moral breakthroughs of all time.
from: http://www.christianethicstoday.com...ons of Slavery By William E. Hull_043_05_.htm


and it has everything to do with the current discussion, for it is the same hermeneutic that is leading believers astray on the creation-evolution-design issues.
 
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Calminian

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rmwilliamsll said:
Calminian)[i said:
What exactly is it you disagree with? I said american slavery and biblical slavery are two different things and the Bible doesn't support american slavery. You disagree with that??[/i]

this is the way Noll describes as the 3rd way:
A third, and the most complicated, response was held by some abolitionists and moderate emancipationists. They conceded that, while the Bible did indeed sanction a form of slavery, careful attention to the text of Scripture itself would show that the simple presence of slavery in the Bible was not a necessary justification for slavery as it existed in the United States. ... this argument required a movement from the words of the Bible to theories about how the Bible should be applied to modern life, and it often seemed indistinguishable from the next response. (The fourth response) was to distinguish between the letter of the Bible (which might be construed to allow slavery) and the spirit of the Bible (which everywhere worked against the institution)."

I didn't ask what noll thought I asked what you thought. Noll doesn't seem to think it's important to go to scripture to learn the meaning of words. The abolitionists were correct. Adapting modern meanings to old words will do nothing but cause confusion and even harm. This is a bad hermeneutical approach. A good hermeneutic would be to find out what the author actually meant by that word. This still a literal approach. Had early american christians done this perhaps slavery wouldn't have become so widespread.

So rmwII, do you personally believe there was a difference between biblical and early american slavery? Do you personally believe it was right for early american christians to adapt a modern meaning to it?
 
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Calminian

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mhess13 said:
I still don't see what slavery has to do with the price of rice in China

rmwII has mad the point that a literal approach to scripture is the cause of many evils like slavery. Thus a literal approach should be abandoned, i.e. a literal approach to Genesis should be abandoned. I'm trying to show the fallaciousness of the slavery argument. But it's your call. If you want this topic moved elsewhere, say the word.
 
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Calminian

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faith guardian said:
mhess. Why on earth do you want the US out of the UN?

Do you want less criticism on your president's warmongery?

Absolutely! Once you guys got rid of the Vikings it's been downhill every since. ;)

Typical european leftist response. Imagine what the world would be like if they had their way.
 
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TheReasoner

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Calminian said:
Absolutely! Once you guys got rid of the Vikings it's been downhill every since. ;)

Typical european leftist response. Imagine what the world would be like if they had their way.


Hmmm... Peaceful with equal rights and no excessively poweful concerns?
 
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