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Theistic Evolution ~ is it compatible with orthodox teaching & doctrine? .

Protoevangel

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Then don't be one.
Michael, besides me and you, I don't think anyone has been a jerk in this thread.

I guess we have differing definitions of that. Openly questioning someone's faith because they do not read Genesis the way you do and have not had the time to read some of the Fathers you have is not exactly being loving toward your neighbor. Oh wait, I am sure the Fathers have written some explanation saying that not everyone is your neighbor, in direct contrast to what Christ taught in the Gospel!
This is a blatant misrepresentation... A false witness, if you will. Jack Straw has been nothing but charitable in this discussion, responding to abusive and scornful remarks by you with remarkable dispassion. We both could learn from his composure.
 
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jckstraw72

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here's more on plants and the tilling, demonstrating that the literal plants did not literally require tilling, but rather that the tilling was a spiritual labor:

St. John Chrysostom, On the Creation of the World 5:5, pg. 791
“To till.” What was lacking in Paradise? And even if a tiller was needed, where was the plow? Where were the other implements of agriculture? The “tilling” (or “working”) of God consisted in tilling and keeping the commandments of God, remaining faithful to the commandment . . . The work was the keeping of the spiritual words . . . “To till and to keep it,” it is said. To keep it from whom? There were no thieves, no passersby, no one of evil intent. To keep from whom? To keep it for oneself; not to lose it by transgressing the commandment; to keep Paradise for oneself, observing the commandment.

Homilies on Romans 14
What is the meaning of “the creation was made subject to futility”? That it became corruptible. For what cause, and on what account? On account of you, O man. For since you took a body mortal and subject to suffering, so also the earth received a curse, and brought forth thorns and thistles.

St. Ephraim the Syrian, Commentary on Genesis 2.7
2. But with what did Adam till the garden since he had no tools for tilling? How could he have tilled it since he was not capable of tilling it himself? What did he have to till since there were no thorns or briars there? Moreover, how could he have guarded it as he could not possibly encompass it? And from what did he guard it since there were no thieves to enter it? Indeed, the fence that was erected after the transgression of the commandment bears witness that as long as Adam kept the commandment, no guard was required.
3. Adam had nothing to guard then except the law that had been set down for him. Nor was any other “tilling” entrusted to him except to fulfill the commandment that had been commanded him.

St. Gregory the Theologian, Second Oration on Easter 8
This being He placed in Paradise . . . to till the immortal plants, by which is perhaps meant the Divine conceptions, both the simpler and the more perfect.

St. Nilus of Sora (commenting on this interpretation by St. Nilus of Sinai), Genesis, Creation and Early Man p. 170
Now this Saint brings forth from antiquity that one should till and keep; for the Scripture says that God created Adam and placed him in Paradise to till and keep Paradise. For here this St. Nilus of Sinai calls prayer the tilling of Paradise, and the guarding against evil thoughts after prayer he calls keeping.


and here's more of the quote from St. Paisius;
St. Paisius Velichovsky, The Scroll, 6 Chapters on Mental Prayer, chap 2
From these testimonies it is clear that God, having created man according to His image and likeness, conducted him into a Paradise of sweetness to till the immortal gardens, that is, the most pure, exalted and perfect Divine thoughts, according to St. Gregory the Theologian. And this means nothing else than that he remained, as being pure in soul and heart, in contemplative, grace-filled prayer, sacredly working in the mind alone, that is, in the sweetest vision of God, and that he manfully preserved this, it being the work of Paradise, as the apple of his eye, lest it ever decrease in his soul and heart.
 
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Protoevangel

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:thumbsup:

I feel the same way (though I can see it as valid); if the Church decides, on the grounds of patristic evidence / tradition, to say that TE is heresy then I'd recant it in a heartbeat; until then, I've no problem with it (and lean towards it, while respecting the depth of the mystery we are speculating on).

I think I'll bow out of this thread now - it has, genuinely, been a great one. I'm impressed with the general civility of it, and it has given me great food for thought / reflection.

In Christ,
Macarius
Macarius,

I have very much appreciated your contribution to this thread. You posed some thoughts that were compelling. I do think that you are approaching the question somewhat rationalistically, but your charitableness and willingness to ponder opposing arguments is commendable.

I do hope that no one in this thread was accusing you (or TEs in general) of syncretism and heresy. If it was happening, I certainly did not see it. It seems to me that the intent has been to inform and encourage TEs to look deeper into the Father's writings on the subject, so they can really make informed decisions, instead of relying on their own intuition and rationalism, on whether believing what they taught is really anachronistic, or whether it is appropriate.

I for one do not see it as an issue of heresy, but I also do not think that there is no importance to the question at all. But whether we can come to consensus on the question is clearly secondary to whether we can discuss it in a spirit of brotherly love. In this, you have been exemplary.
 
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Blackknight

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Stuff like this is what causes people to leave the church. If I wanted to be forced to take a literal reading of all scripture I would be a Southern Baptist. ;)

I refuse to ignore what I have learned about how the world works. The church fathers may have had a literal view on Genesis but there are also many throughout history that have not. There is also no church dogma about the issue either way so you can continue beating a dead horse if you want but it's not going to change anybody's mind.
 
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jckstraw72

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Stuff like this is what causes people to leave the church. If I wanted to be forced to take a literal reading of all scripture I would be a Southern Baptist. ;)

I refuse to ignore what I have learned about how the world works. The church fathers may have had a literal view on Genesis but there are also many throughout history that have not. There is also no church dogma about the issue either way so you can continue beating a dead horse if you want but it's not going to change anybody's mind.

well you can believe whatever you want of course, but its not true that its pointless or that no one's mind will be changed. Fr. Seraphim himself changed his mind after reading the Fathers, and there are plenty of others like him.

and accepting the historicity of Genesis does not equate to interpreting the entire Bible literally. reading Genesis literally is not a Southern Baptist phenomenon if the Fathers did it ...

... and conversely, i use to struggle with Orthodoxy because people kept telling me that the Church has no stance on this issue and that it doesn't interpret the text consistently, so my obvious question was "how could it be the true Church if it cant even decide what Scripture means?" for me, a much better reason to leave the Church would be that its proclaiming to not really understand Scripture without the help of secular science.... that would place science as a higher authority on the Scriptures, so why would I continue to follow the Church? so if you think this is just beating a dead horse then feel free to not read the thread. but your experience is not normative for everyone :)
 
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Chesterton

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"how could it be the true Church if it cant even decide what Scripture means?"

The Church doesn't decide positively on what everything in the Book of Revelations means, right?
 
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jckstraw72

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The Church doesn't decide positively on what everything in the Book of Revelations means, right?

recognizing Revelation as mystery doesn't mean the Church has to also proclaim Genesis as completely mysterious! As far as I can tell, Genesis is one of the most commented on books in Scripture besides the Gospels. The Church has had plenty to say about it, and several Saints have literally been to Paradise. in that regard, Revelation is not analogous. Although I wonder why the mystery of Revelation only seems to imply that Genesis is mystery too ... how come we don't claim ignorance on Paul's letters, or the Gospels based on the mystery of Revelation...?

and there's also the obvious difference that Revelation has not come to pass yet, so of course we don't know how it will exactly play out, whereas Genesis has already happened ...
 
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Blackknight

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I don't think there's anything mysterious about Genesis but the idea of a literal six day creation just goes against everything that we observe in nature and the universe. And I'm not saying that science is the ultimate authority, science didn't create the universe but it can explain a lot about how things work.

The book of Genesis is very similar to other ancient Sumerian cosmologies and I don't believe that it was ever intended to be taken as literal fact. I guess that means I disagree with the Saints on some things.
 
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inconsequential

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I don't think there's anything mysterious about Genesis but the idea of a literal six day creation just goes against everything that we observe in nature and the universe. And I'm not saying that science is the ultimate authority, science didn't create the universe but it can explain a lot about how things work.

The book of Genesis is very similar to other ancient Sumerian cosmologies and I don't believe that it was ever intended to be taken as literal fact. I guess that means I disagree with the Saints on some things.


I don't know if you've read the whole thread or not so I'll repost some questions I've asked for TE's, not to try and prove anything but just out of curiosity about the beliefs of individuals.

Do you believe Adam and Eve were literal people?

If so, how did they come to be? (Adam literally formed from dirt and Eve made from his rib or an ensouled hominid, etc?)
 
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jckstraw72

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I don't think there's anything mysterious about Genesis but the idea of a literal six day creation just goes against everything that we observe in nature and the universe. And I'm not saying that science is the ultimate authority, science didn't create the universe but it can explain a lot about how things work.

The book of Genesis is very similar to other ancient Sumerian cosmologies and I don't believe that it was ever intended to be taken as literal fact. I guess that means I disagree with the Saints on some things.

well nothing observed has actually told you that the universe is old - the interpretations of the past, based on the observations of the 19th-21st centuries have told you that the world is old, but thats quite different than actually observing an old earth.

we covered Genesis and other cosmologies of the same time and place pretty thoroughly in my Israel's Origins class with Bp. Michael Dahulich - he was pretty adamant that Genesis is in fact NOT very similar to the other accounts. Genesis has none of the mythological characteristics that the other cosmologies do.
 
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Photini

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we covered Genesis and other cosmologies of the same time and place pretty thoroughly in my Israel's Origins class with Bp. Michael Dahulich - he was pretty adamant that Genesis is in fact NOT very similar to the other accounts. Genesis has none of the mythological characteristics that the other cosmologies do.

Would you mind ellaborating on that when you get a chance? Some specific examples and how they are different?
 
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jckstraw72

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Would you mind ellaborating on that when you get a chance? Some specific examples and how they are different?

will do, but its a good bit of info, so it could be a while till i get it on here
 
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jckstraw72

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here is the introductory material, there is more info about specific verses, but that'll have to wait till tomorrow or another day:

Enuma Elish
One of the most famous myths coming out of the Ancient World is the Babylonian epic known as the Enuma Elish (from its opening words: “When on high”). The cosmogony found there is extremely important for our study of Genesis, for it has been preserved almost in its entirety and belongs to the same ancient Near East of which Israel was a part.

This Babylonian creation epic tells how, before the formation of heaven and earth, nothing existed except water. This primal element was identified with Apsu, the male personification of the primeval sweetwater ocean, and with his female associate Tiamat, the primordial saltwater ocean, represented as a ferocious monster. From the commingling of the two waters were born divine offspring, who, in turn, gave birth to a second generation of gods; the process was repeated successively. There came a time, however, when the young gods, through their constant, noisy behavior, disturbed the peace of Tiamat and Apsu, who decided to destroy the gods. Their evil design, however, was thwarted by the quick action of Ea, the earth-water god.

Tiamat now plotted revenge and organized her forces for the attack on the gods who, in response, asked Marduk to lead them in battle. He agreed, provided that he be granted sovereignty over the universe. This was readily agreed to, whereupon Marduk took up warfare against Tiamat and her helpers. After a fierce battle in which he defeated the enemy forces and slew Tiamat, Marduk sliced the carcass of the monster in two and created from one half the firmament of the heaven and from the other the foundation of the earth.

This work of creation having begun Marduk then established the heavenly luminaries, each in his own place. The gods then complained to Marduk that, each having now been assigned his or her fixed place and function in the cosmos, there would be no relief from the unending toil. Accordingly, Marduk decided to create man to fee the gods from menial labor. Thus a human being was fashioned out of the blood of Kingu, Tiamat’s second husband and captain of her army. The gods showed their gratitude to Marduk by building for him a great shrine in the city of Babylon, “the gate of the god.” The Enuma Elish ends with a description of a testimonial banquet given by the gods at which they recite a hymn of praise to Marduk that confirms his kingship for all eternity.

Images of this can be found in the Old Testament and the writings of the Fathers, In Isaiah, for example, we find, “Was it not Thou that didst cut Rahab [Tiamat] in pieces, that didst pierce the dragon?” (Is. 51:9) or Psalms, “Thou didst crush the heads of Leviathan” (Ps. 74:14), “Thou didst crush Rahab like a carcass” (Ps. 89:10), and “By His power He stilled the sea; by His understanding He smote Rahab” (Job 26:12). Later, this sea creature (called variously Rahab, Leviathan or dragon) became a symbol for the forces of evil; Cyril of Jerusalem, for example, spoke of Christ crushing the head of the sea monster while standing in the Jordan at His baptism, and this is often portrayed on icons of the Theophany.

The Meaning of Myth
In the popular mind the word myth has come to be identified with fairy tale and associated with the imaginary and the fantastic. But to the Greeks, Mythos meant originally nothing more than a tale. More specifically, it came to be used in describing the deeds of the gods in their relations with one another, their associations with man, and their roles in the cosmos. Myth, in the ancient view, was intimately connected with ritual. In the ancient world, in general, myths were believed to have actually happened in primeval times and continued to influence the world and human destinies. Thus, myth was mimetically re-enacted in public festivals to the accompaniment of ritual. The whole complex constituted initiative magic, the effect of which was believed to be beneficial to the entire community. Through ritual drama, the primordial events recorded in the myth were reactivated. The enactment at the appropriate season of the creative deeds of the gods and the recitation of the proper verbal formulas, so it was believed, would effect the periodic revitalization of nature and so assure the prosperity of the community.

Function of Enuma Elish
The Enuma Elish was one of many versions of cosmogony current in the ancient Near East, but its importance transcended all others, for it became the great national epic of Babylon. It was solemnly recited and dramatically presented in the course of the festivities marking the Spring New Year , the focal point of the Babylonian religious calendar. The epic performed several functions. First, it was a theogony, for it described how the generations of gods came into being. Second, it was cosmological, for it provided an explanation of cosmic phenomena and gave answers to human speculations about the origins of things. Both themes were naturally appropriate to the New Year festival. But still important, the conception of the universe in the Enuma Elish as a kind of cosmic state corresponded to the structural forms of Babylonian society. The position and function of man in the scheme of creation paralleled precisely the status of the slave in Mesopotamia, while the reception of authority by Marduk and his consolidation of power by the show of overwhelming force were symbolic of the Babylonian conception of human rulership of the state.

At the same time, the Enuma Elish served to validate Marduk’s assumption of the divine government of the universe by explaining his ascendancy from relative obscurity as the city-god of Babylon to a supreme position in the Babylonian pantheon, “king of all gods.” It also reflected Babylonian imperialism and supported Babylon’s claims to political pre-eminence in ancient world.

Finally, in its cultic re-enactment, the Enuma Elish recalled the conflict between Tiamat and Marduk as an expression of the war between the forces of cosmic order and the forces of chaos. The struggle was believed to be repeated constantly in the annual life-cycle of the earth. The mimetic New Year re-enactment of the story was in reality a ritual drama. At the critical time of the Vernal Equinox, when nature seemed to be suspended between inanimation and animation, between inertia and creativity, the ritual recitation of the epic served as an analogical repetition of the primordial victory of cosmic order. The participation of society in the struggle between the forces of death and those of revival, to the Babylonian mind, actually brought into effect the renewal of communal life and its re-invigoration.

Function of Genesis Narrative
The ideas presented in the Enuma Elish, as well as its role in Babylonian society are important for a proper understanding of the Genesis account. We must remember that the Mesopotamian and Hebrew cosmogonies, each in its own way, express through their symbolism the worldviews and values that animated the civilization each represents. However, an important distinction must be made here between Israel and Mesopotamia, for the theme of creation, important as it is in the Bible, is only introductory (a prologue, so to speak) to what is to come, namely, the Exodus from Egypt, when God breaks into history. God’s acts in history, rather than His role as Creator are predominant in Biblical thought.

The Bible opens with the account of Creation, not so much because its primary purpose is to describe the process of cosmogony, nor because its chief concern is with the nature of the physical world or the origin and constitution of matter. Genesis will be a prologue to the historical drama that unfolds in the following pages of the Bible. It proclaims, loudly and without ambiguity, the absolute subordination of all creation to Supreme Creator Who makes use of the forces of nature to fulfill His mighty deeds in history – what will be, for us, “Salvation History.” Unlike the Enuma Elish in Babylon, the Genesis Creation account is primarily the record of the event that inaugurates this historical process, and which ensures that there is divine purpose behind creation that works itself out on the human stage.

There are other basic distinctions between Genesis and the Enuma Elish, for Genesis has no political role. It contains no allusions to the people of Israel, Jerusalem or the Temple. It does not seek to validate national ideals or institutions. In addition, it fulfills no cultic function. The tie between myth and ritual, the mimetic enactment of the cosmogony in the form of ritual drama, finds no counterpart in the Israelite epic. Here, too, Genesis represents a complete break with Near Eastern tradition.

The reason for this is not hard to find. The supreme characteristic of the Mesopotamian cosmogony is that it is embedded in a mythological matrix, whereas the outstanding peculiarity of the biblical account is the complete absence of mythology in the classical pagan sense of the term. The religion of Israel is essentially non-mythological, for there is no sense of any “biography of the gods.” And nowhere is this non-mythological outlook better illustrated than in the Genesis narrative. It has no notion of the birth of God and no biography of God. It does not even begin with a statement about the existence of God. To the Bible, God’s existence is self-evident as is life itself, and Genesis begins immediately with an account of the creative activity of the pre-existent God.

In the Mesopotamian accounts, theogony is closely tied up with cosmogony. The gods themselves had to be created. Even Marduk, the head of the Babylonian pantheon, is not pre-existent. The first beings are demons and monsters, while the god of creation is born only at a fairly late stage in the theogonic process. Moreover, his activity is introduced almost casually and incidentally.
The birth of the gods implies the existence of some primordial, self-contained, realm from which the gods themselves derive. The cosmos too, is fashioned from the same element, personified in the Enuma Elish as the carcass of Tiamat. This is to say, both the divine and the cosmic are animated by a common source. In addition, the concept of the immanence of the gods in nature was one of the basic convictions of the religious of the pagan world. It meant the existence of divine powers, operating in nature, upon whom the well-being of man and society depended. The periodic changes in nature were conceived as episodes in the lives of the gods. Nature and man belonged to the same realm. Hence, the goal of man on earth was to integrate himself harmoniously into the cosmic rhythm.

This dependence upon the material explains the prominence in the polytheistic religion of the tales of the personal lives of the gods, their subjection to birth, growth, sex, hunger, disease, impotence and even death. Now, if there are many gods and these gods are dependent upon physical existence, then they can have neither freedom nor omnipotence. Their immanence in nature limits their scope. Their sovereign powers are circumscribed by the superior forces inherent in the primordial substance of existence. Since, according to pagan concepts, man’s destiny is controlled by two separate forces, the gods and the power beyond the gods, it was inevitable that magic became an integral part of pagan religion. Man had to be able to devise the means of activating those forces superior even to the gods. Religion, as a consequence, became increasingly concerned with the elaboration of ritual designed to propitiate the numerous unpredictable powers that be.

Anyone who reads the Bible, especially the Psalter, is aware that the ancient Israelite was as struck by the majesty of natural phenomena as was any of his pagan neighbors. But unlike them, he did not profess to see God within those phenomena. The clear line of distinction between God and His creation was never violated. Nowhere is this brought out more forcefully than in the Genesis account. Here we find no physical link between the world of humanity and the world of the divine. There is no natural connection between the Creator and His handiwork. Hence, there is not room for magic in the religion of the Bible. The God of Creation is eternally existent, removed from all corporeality, and independent of time and space.

Anyone reading the 1st Chapter of Genesis is immediately struck by the complete de-mythologization found there. The planets, stars and other heavenly bodies are “stars” unnamed and simply “lamps” hung in the sky by the Creator to give light to man. Only the Sun and Moon are mentioned by name, calling to mind that the Sun, Re was a great Egyptian god and the moon, Astarte was a Canaanite goddess. To the Greeks there was Helios the Sun god and Hecate, the Moon goddess of the shades; it was she who ruled over the dead. The Earth and Sea are no longer powerful deities – Mother Earth and Oceanus – but simply, “God called the dry land ‘earth’ and the assembled waters ‘sea.’” And together with them all the secondary gods – the gods of the rivers, mountains, springs, trees, and so forth – have been swept away. The great sea monsters are no longer relics of the mythical chaos and a primeval battle of the gods, but are simply animals directly created by God.
 
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MKJ

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well nothing observed has actually told you that the universe is old - the interpretations of the past, based on the observations of the 19th-21st centuries have told you that the world is old, but thats quite different than actually observing an old earth.

we covered Genesis and other cosmologies of the same time and place pretty thoroughly in my Israel's Origins class with Bp. Michael Dahulich - he was pretty adamant that Genesis is in fact NOT very similar to the other accounts. Genesis has none of the mythological characteristics that the other cosmologies do.


I have to ask - where does this idea that science only deals with reporting observations come from? That has never been how it understands itself or operates. To take that seriously would reducing it to lists of observations with no meaning - all science involves interpretation and projecting into the future or the past - that is what science is - the figuring out, not the observation itself.
 
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jckstraw72

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I have to ask - where does this idea that science only deals with reporting observations come from? That has never been how it understands itself or operates. To take that seriously would reducing it to lists of observations with no meaning - all science involves interpretation and projecting into the future or the past - that is what science is - the figuring out, not the observation itself.


well using present observations to try to figure out the past is necessarily based on the assumption of uniformitarianism, and since its based on an assumption i think its more of a philosophy than science. of course we can use present day observations to predict the future, and then we can wait and see if they come true, but we can't wait and see if our thoughts about the past come true - we'll never actually know if our interpretation of the past is correct, except maybe when we stand before God and ask Him!
 
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MKJ

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well using present observations to try to figure out the past is necessarily based on the assumption of uniformitarianism, and since its based on an assumption i think its more of a philosophy than science. of course we can use present day observations to predict the future, and then we can wait and see if they come true, but we can't wait and see if our thoughts about the past come true - we'll never actually know if our interpretation of the past is correct, except maybe when we stand before God and ask Him!

Science is indeed a sub-set of philosophy, and like all rational thought rests on non-scientific principles, but that has never really been in question. THis is true even if you make no attempt to look into the future or past. That is nothing new, and not anything surprising, and it isn't some secret that the scientific world has been hiding. I am just not sure on what grounds we would try to pretty radically change the meaning of "science" and what it encompasses. It isn't like only bad scientists go around interpreting observations - that is actually the very heart and purpose of science.

If you want to define science without that, there would be several consequences:

1) Science would only be able to report observations, but not make any interpretation of their connection to each other or meaning. (So, I observed the sun appear over the Eastern horizon on 44 sepearte days at X times").

2)Science would not be able to make statements like "the sun will come out tomorrow" (Annie would be ruined!)

3) Technological sciences or ones involved with practical applications - like predicting dangerous earthquakes - would not exist, due to point 2. (Gee, I don't know what direction to point these solar panels in - who knows which way the sun will come up. Heck - why build them at all - we may never see the sun again! Alack alack!)

4) Any kind of forensic science would be invalid, including often things like medical diagnosis. (I don't know what made that big hole in the victim's head. Yes, I noticed that bat lying next to him - so what?)


Additionally, if we reject uniformity, we would also lose all philosophical thought. We could not, for example, say 4+4=8, because we have no reason to think that there is any constancy to things like numerical relations or the law of non-contradiction.

Also, I think it is well known by anyone that studies the philosophy of science, and by most scientists, that we cannot have "proofs" in science - that is, we will not know anything for sure until we stand before God. That is the nature of inductive reasoning. But again, if you want to disallow inductive reasoning, there are some pretty concerning consequences.

A few times you have said that you are not intending to become a fundamentalist in the sense of rejecting a link between reason and the created world, but that seems to be the inevitable result of the view of science you are suggesting.
 
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jckstraw72

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i dont know, i just think there's a pretty clear difference between science that deals with the here and now, and the future - both of which would be demonstrated to be true or false (for instance, medicine can be demonstrated to work, or not work), and science that is attempting to figure out the past, which can never be actually figured out. Did C14 decay into C12 at the same rate 1 billion years ago? there's simply no way of ever knowing that. However, we can know if it decays at the same rate 5 yrs from now by testing it 5 yrs from now.

and im not suggesting that we totally throw out uniformity - theres literally no reason to think that gravity will cease to exist tomorrow, or that the sun wont rise, etc, but if you want to suddenly jump a billion years back and assume everything is all the same, well now thats just absurd i think. how could we possibly know that everything was the same then? how could i possibly know how long it took for a layer of earth to lay 500 million years ago - all you can do is guess and assume. especially when we have a Tradition that tells us that the entire cosmos fell, and that there was a worldwide flood which practically returned the earth to its chaotic state (like on the 1st day of creation), how could i possibly accept an assumption that tells me uniformity?
 
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jckstraw72

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i think this does a good job of explaining what im trying to say:

Science and Assumptions

Scientists use observational science to measure the amount of a daughter element within a rock sample and to determine the present observable decay rate of the parent element. Dating methods must also rely on another kind of science called historical science. Historical science cannot be observed. Determining the conditions present when a rock first formed can only be studied through historical science. Determining how the environment might have affected a rock also falls under historical science. Neither condition is directly observable. Since radioisotope dating uses both types of science, we can’t directly measure the age of something. We can use scientific techniques in the present, combined with assumptions about historical events, to estimate the age. Therefore, there are several assumptions that must be made in radioisotope dating. Three critical assumptions can affect the results during radioisotope dating:

  1. The initial conditions of the rock sample are accurately known.
  2. The amount of parent or daughter elements in a sample has not been altered by processes other than radioactive decay.
  3. The decay rate (or half-life) of the parent isotope has remained constant since the rock was formed.
The Hourglass Illustration

Radioisotope dating can be better understood using an illustration with an hourglass. If we walk into a room and observe an hourglass with sand at the top and sand at the bottom, we could calculate how long the hourglass has been running. By estimating how fast the sand is falling and measuring the amount of sand at the bottom, we could calculate how much time has elapsed since the hourglass was turned over. All our calculations could be correct (observational science), but the result could be wrong. This is because we failed to take into account some critical assumptions.

  1. Was there any sand at the bottom when the hourglass was first turned over (initial conditions)?
  2. Has any sand been added or taken out of the hourglass? (Unlike the open-system nature of a rock, this is not possible for a sealed hourglass.)
  3. Has the sand always been falling at a constant rate?
Since we did not observe the initial conditions when the hourglass time started, we must make assumptions. All three of these assumptions can affect our time calculations. If scientists fail to consider each of these three critical assumptions, then radioisotope dating can give incorrect ages.

from Does Radiometric Dating Prove the Earth Is Old? - Answers in Genesis

regarding the 3 assumptions - unless we build a time machine and go back and find a super old rock at the moment of its creation, we will never know if these assumptions are true. its just impossible to know. however, we can know the truth of all 3 statements when dealing with a newly-formed rock because we're actually here to observe it and test it from its creation. this doesnt involve guesswork, its just straight-up observation and testing
 
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