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Theistic Evolution ~ is it compatible with orthodox teaching & doctrine? .

jckstraw72

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This is where the process of peer-review comes in.

ok, and peers with the same interpretive framework will come to the same results and those with a different interpretive framework are blacklisted and have no chance to voice a dissenting opinion!

and what about the "peer reviewing" of the Saints? even after Darwin and evolution's complete takeover of the educational system the Saints continue to agree with all the ancient Fathers.
 
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jckstraw72

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It is a great discussion...so long as it remains civil (as it has so far). It is a subject that I am looking into and learning more about as each year passes. I can't say I have very well-developed thoughts about it at this point though. But it really does get me to thinking.

If animals did not die before the fall, how was Eden not overrun with animals? I didn't think that animals were created immortal. Was animal "death" then a type of passing on to nourish the earth that didn't involve decay and suffering?

here's a pretty good compilation dealing with animal death before the fall, see post 50

Animal death before the fall?
 
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Protoevangel

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mmmmm this is a yummy post! thank you!

id only disagree with you one one small point: i think St. Clement of Alexandria actually interpreted the days literally:

Stromata Book 4.25
Whence He commands them not to touch dead bodies, or approach the dead; not that the body was polluted, but that sin and disobedience were incarnate, and embodied, and dead, and therefore abominable. It was only, then, when a father and mother, a son and daughter died, that the priest was allowed to enter, because these were related only by flesh and seed, to whom the priest was indebted for the immediate cause of his entrance into life. And they purify themselves seven days, the period in which Creation was consummated. For on the seventh day the rest is celebrated; and on the eighth he brings a propitiation, as is written in Ezekiel, according to which propitiation the promise is to be received.


5.6

Now the high priest's robe is the symbol of the world of sense. The seven planets are represented by the five stones and the two carbuncles, for Saturn and the Moon. The former is southern, and moist, and earthy, and heavy; the latter aerial, whence she is called by some Artemis, as if Aerotomos (cutting the air); and the air is cloudy. And cooperating as they did in the production of things here below, those that by Divine Providence are set over the planets are rightly represented as placed on the breast and shoulders; and by them was the work of creation, the first week. And the breast is the seat of the heart and soul.
Interesting! The reference I've encountered is from Stromata 6:16
For the creations on the different days followed in a most important succession; so that all things brought into existence might have honour from priority, created together in thought, but not being of equal worth. Nor was the creation of each signified by the voice, inasmuch as the creative work is said to have made them at once. For something must needs have been named first. Wherefore those things were announced first, from which came those that were second, all things being originated together from one essence by one power. For the will of God was one, in one identity. And how could creation take place in time, seeing time was born along with things which exist.
This quote seems to indicate that he believed in an instantaneous creation, with the order in Genesis being something other than literal days. This was a fairly widespread belief in his day. My reading of those who are not actually Church Fathers is fairly sparse... Your references are much more clear. Thank you.
 
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jckstraw72

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Interesting! The reference I've encountered is from Stromata 6:16
This quote seems to indicate that he believed in an instantaneous creation, with the order in Genesis being something other than literal days. This was a fairly widespread belief in his day. My reading of those who are not actually Church Fathers is fairly sparse... Your references are much more clear. Thank you.

eeenteresting! the one i always come across on TE websites is this:

That, then, we may be taught that the world was originated, and not suppose that God made it in time, prophecy adds: "This is the book of the generation: also of the things in them, when they were created in the day that God made heaven and earth." For the expression "when they were created" intimates an indefinite and dateless production. But the expression "in the day that God made," that is, in and by which God made "all things," and "without which not even one thing was made," points out the activity exerted by the Son. As David says, "This is the day which the Lord hath made; let us be glad and rejoice in it; " that is, in consequence of the knowledge imparted by Him, let us celebrate the divine festival; for the Word that throws light on things hidden, and by whom each created thing came into life and being, is called day.
(Miscellanies 6.16 [208 AD])


they point to the phrase "dateless production" as supposing to mean that he didn't believe in literal days, which for many TE's opens the door for them to believe in any wild interpretation of day that they deem fit. of course if he is saying that creation didnt happen within time then that doenst' help the evolutionist cause either, since they need even more time for their theory to be true ....

i think he is saying here that God began to create from within eternity/timelessness, but as soon as He did create, time began, which is what he says at the end of your quote, which i just noticed is from the same chapter and book of the Stromata!
 
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Protoevangel

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eeenteresting! the one i always come across on TE websites is this:

That, then, we may be taught that the world was originated, and not suppose that God made it in time, prophecy adds: "This is the book of the generation: also of the things in them, when they were created in the day that God made heaven and earth." For the expression "when they were created" intimates an indefinite and dateless production. But the expression "in the day that God made," that is, in and by which God made "all things," and "without which not even one thing was made," points out the activity exerted by the Son. As David says, "This is the day which the Lord hath made; let us be glad and rejoice in it; " that is, in consequence of the knowledge imparted by Him, let us celebrate the divine festival; for the Word that throws light on things hidden, and by whom each created thing came into life and being, is called day.
(Miscellanies 6.16 [208 AD])


they point to the phrase "dateless production" as supposing to mean that he didn't believe in literal days, which for many TE's opens the door for them to believe in any wild interpretation of day that they deem fit. of course if he is saying that creation didnt happen within time then that doenst' help the evolutionist cause either, since they need even more time for their theory to be true ....

i think he is saying here that God began to create from within eternity/timelessness, but as soon as He did create, time began, which is what he says at the end of your quote, which i just noticed is from the same chapter and book of the Stromata!
Considering your references from 4:25 and 5:6, yours does seem to be the most likely explanation. I suppose I'll have to stop reckoning him among the allegorical interpreters...
 
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MKJ

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If I'm understanding people correctly, some think that Adam and Eve being the products of evolution means that death, which happened before they appeared, could not be the product of the Fall? That is, that the history of the Earth up until those people appear is all "garden"?

I don't think that is how Christian supporters of evolution understand it. I think most would say that even if Adam and Eve appeared at a particular time in history, the Fall affected history from the beginning, causing not only death in creatures that lived before them, but also probably things like entropy that existed from the very beginning of the universe.

If I recall correctly there is at least one Father that says that the Fall was instantaneous and happened at the very moment of creation, and that the garden was in some sense outside what we would understand as the normal course of history. I'm afraid I can't remember who it would have been.
 
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jckstraw72

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If I'm understanding people correctly, some think that Adam and Eve being the products of evolution means that death, which happened before they appeared, could not be the product of the Fall? That is, that the history of the Earth up until those people appear is all "garden"?

I don't think that is how Christian supporters of evolution understand it. I think most would say that even if Adam and Eve appeared at a particular time in history, the Fall affected history from the beginning, causing not only death in creatures that lived before them, but also probably things like entropy that existed from the very beginning of the universe.

If I recall correctly there is at least one Father that says that the Fall was instantaneous and happened at the very moment of creation, and that the garden was in some sense outside what we would understand as the normal course of history. I'm afraid I can't remember who it would have been.

ive heard this argument before - that the Fall was applied beforehand to all of history, but the problem is that the Fathers do not support that. They are quite clear that the entire creation was created incorrupt, until man sinned.

tihs page is a good compilation of Patristic quotes demonstrating this: the entire creation was created incorrupt « Old Believing’s Blog
 
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jckstraw72

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Considering your references from 4:25 and 5:6, yours does seem to be the most likely explanation. I suppose I'll have to stop reckoning him among the allegorical interpreters...

creation 1 evolution 0!
 
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ArmyMatt

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and what about the "peer reviewing" of the Saints?

plus it's kinda tough to peer review someone who is not your peer, so until I become that illumined, I think I will trust what they have to say.
 
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Protoevangel

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creation 1 evolution 0!
:)

Actually, even if he had held to the allegorical interpretation, as did his student, Origen, he still left no room for the kind of time frame evolution requires.
 
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jckstraw72

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:)

Actually, even if he had held to the allegorical interpretation, as did his student, Origen, he still left no room for the kind of time frame evolution requires.

preach it brother! and not even Origen's time frame could accomodate evolution!
 
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Ortho_Cat

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ok, and peers with the same interpretive framework will come to the same results and those with a different interpretive framework are blacklisted and have no chance to voice a dissenting opinion!

and what about the "peer reviewing" of the Saints? even after Darwin and evolution's complete takeover of the educational system the Saints continue to agree with all the ancient Fathers.

Baseless conspiracy theories.

The peer review process is for scientists, not saints.
 
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jckstraw72

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Baseless conspiracy theories.

The peer review process is for scientists, not saints.


so when scientists agree its solid gold, but when Saints who have drawn near to God agree its a matter of opinion ....?

also, i see you're a catechumen. im not your SF, but i think a good way to enter into the faith would be to have more trust in the Saints ... you'll learn much more that way.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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so when scientists agree its solid gold, but when Saints who have drawn near to God agree its a matter of opinion ....?

also, i see you're a catechumen. im not your SF, but i think a good way to enter into the faith would be to have more trust in the Saints ... you'll learn much more that way.

Saints are not scientists, and neither are infallible. That is all...
 
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Ortho_Cat

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this is a matter of interpretation of Scripture. who's realm is that?

It was not the intentions of the Father's to extract scientific, literal/factual truth out of the scriptures. Equating truth with literal/factual information is largely a western phenomenon borne out of the enlightnment, as I mentioned previously. Their intentions were instead to extract a higher spiritual meaning from the bible. Any passage where they infer the age of the earth is secondary to their intended purpose. A young earth was taken for granted in their day because this was the commonly held view of their time; they had no reason to think otherwise. Today, however, is a different story, as all the evidence indicates otherwise, and most modern theologians accept that.

I would like to recuse myself now, if you would allow me to do so.
 
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MKJ

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It was not the intentions of the Father's to extract scientific, literal/factual truth out of the scriptures. Equating truth with literal/factual information is largely a western phenomenon borne out of the enlightnment, as I mentioned previously. Their intentions were instead to extract a higher spiritual meaning from the bible. Any passage where they infer the age of the earth is secondary to their intended purpose. A young earth was taken for granted in their day because this was the commonly held view of their time; they had no reason to think otherwise. Today, however, is a different story, as all the evidence indicates otherwise, and most modern theologians accept that.

I would like to recuse myself now, if you would allow me to do so.


I was under the impression that the idea of a young earth was common among Christians at that time, but not pagans. Pagans believed that the universe didn't have a beginning in time. And many atheist modern (in the broad sense) scientists also thought the universe had always existed. That was one of the major reasons that Big Bang theory was originally rejected by most - it was "too Christian".

Anyway, I'm not trying to pull you back in, it's just something I find interesting.
 
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