Theisitic Evolution

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Another question I would like to know from those who support a theistic evolution. Do you support the standard theory of evolution that Darwin has but that God started the process off. Or do you believe that all the necessary instructions for ongoing life were introduced at the beginning so that any new information needed to create new types of creatures was already there to tap into to. I say this because there is a pretty big difference in the evidence between what supports genetic info being existing and complex from the beginning and more simple life creating more complex life through mutations and natural selection. It seems that there is good support for mutations not being able to create more complex fitter life.

There also seems to be fairly good support for complex genetic info being around from an early stage. That there is a great ability for all life to tune into and share genetic info with each other and the environment. So maybe God made it that way as one big organism that is living and sharing and all connected. The idea that God just set the ball rolling with the first step or two seems to be too close to Darwinian evolution. It leaves God out a bit too much. Apart from the first step the rest is done by a naturalistic process that is self creating. So you may as well just include the first couple of steps and leave God out all together.
 
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Another question I would like to know from those who support a theistic evolution. Do you support the standard theory of evolution that Darwin has but that God started the process off. Or do you believe that all the necessary instructions for ongoing life were introduced at the beginning so that any new information needed to create new types of creatures was already there to tap into to. I say this because there is a pretty big difference in the evidence between what supports genetic info being existing and complex from the beginning and more simple life creating more complex life through mutations and natural selection. It seems that there is good support for mutations not being able to create more complex fitter life.

There also seems to be fairly good support for complex genetic info being around from an early stage. That there is a great ability for all life to tune into and share genetic info with each other and the environment. So maybe God made it that way as one big organism that is living and sharing and all connected. The idea that God just set the ball rolling with the first step or two seems to be too close to Darwinian evolution. It leaves God out a bit too much. Apart from the first step the rest is done by a naturalistic process that is self creating. So you may as well just include the first couple of steps and leave God out all together.

There are a few questions, here; Some theological, and others scientific. Please let me know if I missed anything:

Theological: Did God play an active role in evolution or did He just set the ball rolling?

I don't think that nature is a machine that God set going and stepped back from. To start with a less contentious issue, consider gravity. Do the planets orbit the Sun independent of God's activity? No. Nature has its own causes, and the God-hypothesis isn't needed to explain their motions, but through revelation we have it that He is present in all things. As this applies to evolution, it may be that we can talk about natural causes without referencing God, but God underlies and sustains all of nature. Calvin writes extensively (and quite persuasively) about this in his Institutes, but this is a sentiment echoed by many theologians and biblical commentators.

Scientific: Is there support for complex genetic info being around from an early stage?

"Early" is really hard. Typically, the smaller the organism, the less evidence it leaves lying around. The shortest self-replicating RNA molecules that have been discovered are about 165 bases long. That isn't very complex and if that's the way it was, there wouldn't be much evidence of it. It may be that science's ideas about the beginning of life is always an hypothesis because the kind of evidence needed is too fragile to last 3.8 billion years.

More directly to the question, the evidence from "an early stage" is very sparse, so it's hard to say how quickly certain things appeared.

Scientific: Can mutations and natural selection introduce complexity?

Mathematically, there is no trouble to thinking that mutations and natural election can produce complexity. Evolution can do some pretty wild stuff, and we even use it in Computer Science to find sub-optimal solutions to problems that are thought to be very hard. On the biology side, you can find common genes in different species that have diverged to fulfill different functions. Sometimes it's a product of gene duplication, and so one species will have both versions (and, therefore, both functions). That's pretty undeniably increased complexity. This can lead to more advanced or different organs or abilities that appear in very surprising ways.

But the short answer is, yes, this is something for which you will get reams of evidence in any genetics class.
 
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stevevw

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There are a few questions, here; Some theological, and others scientific. Please let me know if I missed anything:

Theological: Did God play an active role in evolution or did He just set the ball rolling?
I don't think that nature is a machine that God set going and stepped back from. To start with a less contentious issue, consider gravity. Do the planets orbit the Sun independent of God's activity? No. Nature has its own causes, and the God-hypothesis isn't needed to explain their motions, but through revelation we have it that He is present in all things. As this applies to evolution, it may be that we can talk about natural causes without referencing God, but God underlies and sustains all of nature. Calvin writes extensively (and quite persuasively) about this in his Institutes, but this is a sentiment echoed by many theologians and biblical commentators.
Some say that scientists are looking at what is happening everywhere and trying to describe it in terms of natural processes. They will prescribe things like laws in an attempt to describe reality. But as we have seen with gravity and Newtons laws it can be wrong and Einstein came up with a better and more complete description with the theory of relativity. But now we are finding that gravity may need a newer understanding from quantum physics. So it seems the laws and descriptions that scientists place on things are an attempt to describe reality but are always incomplete. They are only a description and have no creative ability and they dont explain how these thing came about. This is a world view of existence and maybe it is humans trying to fit what we see to that world view rather than it actually being what it really is.

If God is creator of all things then He is the creator of the quantum world as well. As we know in the quantum world things defy the standard physics that we use to describe the world we see. Yet we know that the quantum world is what is at the beginning of all things and really what gave birth to our reality. But what gave birth to the quantum world. There maybe something that scientists havnt discovered or will never understand that is the driving force for all things. Science through a world view believe they have and will discover the answers to everything. They describe it as a theory of everything. Maybe there are things science will never comprehend. Maybe all science is trying to do is put a natural explanation on Gods creation.
A Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15889345
Universal Genome in the Origin of Metazoa: Thoughts About Evolution
(a) the Universal Genome that encodes all major developmental programs essential for various phyla of Metazoa emerged in a unicellular or a primitive multicellular organism shortly before the Cambrian period; (b) The Metazoan phyla, all having similar genomes, are nonetheless so distinct because they utilize specific combinations of developmental programs.
Universal Genome in the Origin of Metazoa: Thoughts About Evolution (PDF Download Available). Available from: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/6177829_Universal_Genome_in_the_Origin_of_Metazoa_Thoughts_About_Evolution [accessed Jan 31, 2016].


Scientific: Is there support for complex genetic info being around from an early stage?
"Early" is really hard. Typically, the smaller the organism, the less evidence it leaves lying around. The shortest self-replicating RNA molecules that have been discovered are about 165 bases long. That isn't very complex and if that's the way it was, there wouldn't be much evidence of it. It may be that science's ideas about the beginning of life is always an hypothesis because the kind of evidence needed is too fragile to last 3.8 billion years.

More directly to the question, the evidence from "an early stage" is very sparse, so it's hard to say how quickly certain things appeared.
I was thinking more on indirect evidence as we will never be able to confirm this through the direct physical evidence. By looking at what is happening now through genomics we can get to know how things work and apply that to the past. There is evidence that complex creatures that require similar genetics to what we see today were around very early on. Even the creatures of the Cambrian period have very complex body parts and show all the modern body plans. We can see that the forms in proteins have universal structures that seem to conform to a natural form like the laws of physics rather than come from a Darwinian evolving process. They have pre set shapes that are beyond the capabilities that Darwinian evolution could create.

Other indirect evidence comes from things like our DNA has less junk and is more functional. Also there is growing evidence for HGT and endosymbiosis and symbiosis. So creatures may be able to share genetic info more freely especially in the beginning when all things were more united under similar genetic makeups. This may also be connected with the environment. Rather than the environment being something that creatures have to conform to it could be that the environment itself is part of creatures being able to share genetic info. This is seen especially in the micro, plant and aquatic worlds. So it may be that there is more capacity within the genome to create new genetic info by tapping into a vast amount of existing info that was there from the beginning.

Darwinian evolution in the light of genomics

Evolutionary-genomic studies show that natural selection is only one of the forces that shape genome evolution and is not quantitatively dominant, whereas non-adaptive processes are much more prominent than previously suspected. Major contributions of horizontal gene transfer and diverse selfish genetic elements to genome evolution undermine the Tree of Life concept.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2651812/
The protein folds as platonic forms: new support for the pre-Darwinian conception of evolution by natural law.
The folds are evidently determined by natural law, not natural selection, and are "lawful forms" in the Platonic and pre-Darwinian sense of the word
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12419661

Scientific: Can mutations and natural selection introduce complexity?
Mathematically, there is no trouble to thinking that mutations and natural election can produce complexity. Evolution can do some pretty wild stuff, and we even use it in Computer Science to find sub-optimal solutions to problems that are thought to be very hard. On the biology side, you can find common genes in different species that have diverged to fulfill different functions. Sometimes it's a product of gene duplication, and so one species will have both versions (and, therefore, both functions). That's pretty undeniably increased complexity. This can lead to more advanced or different organs or abilities that appear in very surprising ways.

But the short answer is, yes, this is something for which you will get reams of evidence in any genetics class.
I think some of the links I posted above will address the ability of natural selection and mutations to produce new complex variations. But here are a couple more that deal with the fitness side of things. It seems that mutations are more detrimental to the fitness of living things rather than a source of better, fitter and more complex life. Afterall they are errors to what is already good and working.

I am not saying that evolution doesn't play some role in the scheme of things. Its just to what extent it may do so. There maybe some natural selection happening but I dont think its the dominate driving force. Mutations dont produce anything like the amount of creative power that evolutionists give it. I think a lot is mistaken for the ability of living things to tap into using existing genetic info. The ability of natural selection and mutations is limited and the evidence we see cannot be explained by Darwinian evolution.

Estimating the prevalence of protein sequences adopting functional enzyme folds.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15321723
The Limits of Complex Adaptation: An Analysis Based on a Simple Model of Structured Bacterial Populations

http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.4
Experimental evolution, loss-of-function mutations, and “the first rule of adaptive evolution”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21243963
Diminishing Returns Epistasis Among Beneficial Mutations Decelerates Adaptation
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/332/6034/1190.abstract[/QUOTE]
 
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Job8

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I believe in evolution. Theism doesn't have anything to do with it.
Right. Everything just happened by happenstance.
There wasn't a historical Adam and Eve, the story is mythical.
So how come you continue to call yourself a Catholic?
Adam and Eve: Real People
It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution
 
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Aelred of Rievaulx

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Right. Everything just happened by happenstance.

So how come you continue to call yourself a Catholic?

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution
I believe in evidence based history and science. If you asked the majority of educated Catholics, especially the clergy, if they believed the story of Genesis was mythical they would more than probably say yes. Everyone from Francis and Benedict XVI down.
 
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stevevw

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No, I don't think God simply started teh project and then stepped back. I believe God has to continually interact with us. In order for evolution to move forward, Go has to continually resent new creative possibilities to be actualized.
I think there is a lot more ability in our DNA that can access existing genetic info though a larger functional DNA than what we thought in all living things and from sharing genetic info with other creatures that share the environments. This is how God created our genetic makeups not just as a one off creation but as an living creation that could change and accommodate all situations. I think the variety we see in life isn't always about new species but variations to a small amount of existing kinds and through time have drifted apart. But the important thing is the ability to create new living creatures isn't from a self creating process that doesn't need God as the Darwinian theory states.
 
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stevevw

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I have always wondered why the Catholics are more aligned with the secular idea of things. Am I right in saying they believe in evolution just the same as what the world view is with Darwinian evolution. Where does God fit in with this belief. If the genesis story is fiction then why is it in the bible. What do you think it represents.
 
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I have always wondered why the Catholics are more aligned with the secular idea of things. Am I right in saying they believe in evolution just the same as what the world view is with Darwinian evolution. Where does God fit in with this belief. If the genesis story is fiction then why is it in the bible. What do you think it represents.

Like the others from the Theo-Evo sect the Catholics need to re-write scripture. One thing amongst many is where did sin come from? Was it a result of Adams disobedience as written in Genesis....or some other reason that is non-biblical.
 
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Aelred of Rievaulx

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I have always wondered why the Catholics are more aligned with the secular idea of things. Am I right in saying they believe in evolution just the same as what the world view is with Darwinian evolution. Where does God fit in with this belief. If the genesis story is fiction then why is it in the bible. What do you think it represents.
This sort of question represents ignorance. Ignorance in that you don't understand what the Bible is, you don't understand what science is and you don't understand what knowledge is. If a story is in the Bible does that automatically make it historically true? Is that the only guideline? It would be absolutely and entirely laughable if you think that would be the case. The very notion that a story must be historical simply because it's in the Bible actually places the concept of "history" above the concept of "Scripture" so it's theologically in error. Stop being a laughing stock, it makes the rest of us Christians look horrible.
 
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Willtor

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Some say that scientists are looking at what is happening everywhere and trying to describe it in terms of natural processes. They will prescribe things like laws in an attempt to describe reality. But as we have seen with gravity and Newtons laws it can be wrong and Einstein came up with a better and more complete description with the theory of relativity. But now we are finding that gravity may need a newer understanding from quantum physics. So it seems the laws and descriptions that scientists place on things are an attempt to describe reality but are always incomplete. They are only a description and have no creative ability and they dont explain how these thing came about. This is a world view of existence and maybe it is humans trying to fit what we see to that world view rather than it actually being what it really is.

If God is creator of all things then He is the creator of the quantum world as well. As we know in the quantum world things defy the standard physics that we use to describe the world we see. Yet we know that the quantum world is what is at the beginning of all things and really what gave birth to our reality. But what gave birth to the quantum world. There maybe something that scientists havnt discovered or will never understand that is the driving force for all things. Science through a world view believe they have and will discover the answers to everything. They describe it as a theory of everything. Maybe there are things science will never comprehend. Maybe all science is trying to do is put a natural explanation on Gods creation.
A Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15889345
Universal Genome in the Origin of Metazoa: Thoughts About Evolution
(a) the Universal Genome that encodes all major developmental programs essential for various phyla of Metazoa emerged in a unicellular or a primitive multicellular organism shortly before the Cambrian period; (b) The Metazoan phyla, all having similar genomes, are nonetheless so distinct because they utilize specific combinations of developmental programs.
Universal Genome in the Origin of Metazoa: Thoughts About Evolution (PDF Download Available). Available from: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/6177829_Universal_Genome_in_the_Origin_of_Metazoa_Thoughts_About_Evolution [accessed Jan 31, 2016].

You can do one better: If science ever thinks it has found a complete, consistent description of the natural world, it is wrong... provably. This was shown mathematically by Kurt Gödel. I don't know of any scientists who dispute this (which is not to say they don't exist, but if they exist, they are demonstrably wrong).

That said, it might be worth considering the idea of Karl Barth that we ought to find God in what we know, not in what we do not know. If we look for gaps in scientific understanding and try to stick God into those spots, it's possible we're mistaken... historically, we are likely to be shown wrong. "Okay," one will say, "let us be shown wrong when we're shown wrong." So, there is no natural explanation for the quantum world? And there we have found God? And if people find something natural in that place, no matter?

It seems like the method of identifying gaps in our knowledge and putting God into them is a weak tool for attaining knowledge. Let me propose an alternative method: Whatever people find and describe in natural terms, let it be so. It is by faith that we know that God is present in all places at all times, and in all events. Instead of pointing to a gap in knowledge and telling the world, "He is there, to the exclusion of natural causes!" let us say, "Bidden or unbidden, God is present."

I was thinking more on indirect evidence as we will never be able to confirm this through the direct physical evidence. By looking at what is happening now through genomics we can get to know how things work and apply that to the past. There is evidence that complex creatures that require similar genetics to what we see today were around very early on. Even the creatures of the Cambrian period have very complex body parts and show all the modern body plans. We can see that the forms in proteins have universal structures that seem to conform to a natural form like the laws of physics rather than come from a Darwinian evolving process. They have pre set shapes that are beyond the capabilities that Darwinian evolution could create.

Other indirect evidence comes from things like our DNA has less junk and is more functional. Also there is growing evidence for HGT and endosymbiosis and symbiosis. So creatures may be able to share genetic info more freely especially in the beginning when all things were more united under similar genetic makeups. This may also be connected with the environment. Rather than the environment being something that creatures have to conform to it could be that the environment itself is part of creatures being able to share genetic info. This is seen especially in the micro, plant and aquatic worlds. So it may be that there is more capacity within the genome to create new genetic info by tapping into a vast amount of existing info that was there from the beginning.

Darwinian evolution in the light of genomics

Evolutionary-genomic studies show that natural selection is only one of the forces that shape genome evolution and is not quantitatively dominant, whereas non-adaptive processes are much more prominent than previously suspected. Major contributions of horizontal gene transfer and diverse selfish genetic elements to genome evolution undermine the Tree of Life concept.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2651812/
The protein folds as platonic forms: new support for the pre-Darwinian conception of evolution by natural law.
The folds are evidently determined by natural law, not natural selection, and are "lawful forms" in the Platonic and pre-Darwinian sense of the word
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12419661

Okay, I misunderstood what was meant by "early." Yes, in one sense that's early. In another sense, it's quite late. The Cambrian was closer in time to today than it was to the first (evidence we have of) life on Earth. Cambrian life is complex because it was the product of billions of years of development. If we're talking about self-replicating molecules, however, there is something much simpler.

We actually don't even need to go to HGT and such to talk about the inter-relations of creatures and their environments. Beavers build dams. We're heating up the environment. That creatures impact their environments was known in Darwin's time. His insight was that environments impact the creatures, too, over generations.

You're right that the Phylogenic Tree is fuzzy where organisms that do HGT are concerned. It's pretty useful for everything that doesn't require a microscope to see, but some tiny organisms freely transfer information. But the real problem here is that the term "species" is very hard to pin down. We have this intuition of what constitutes a species, but no matter how we define it, there are organisms and circumstances that don't quite fit. Natural selection still applies. The frequency of alleles is tied to how beneficial the alleles are in their respective niches.

Your second link is about protein folding. They're talking about understanding what changes are possible based on how proteins are folded. It may sound like they are saying that what species will look like is a foregone conclusion, but they are actually talking about limitations on the kinds of proteins that can evolve.

I think some of the links I posted above will address the ability of natural selection and mutations to produce new complex variations. But here are a couple more that deal with the fitness side of things. It seems that mutations are more detrimental to the fitness of living things rather than a source of better, fitter and more complex life. Afterall they are errors to what is already good and working.

I am not saying that evolution doesn't play some role in the scheme of things. Its just to what extent it may do so. There maybe some natural selection happening but I dont think its the dominate driving force. Mutations dont produce anything like the amount of creative power that evolutionists give it. I think a lot is mistaken for the ability of living things to tap into using existing genetic info. The ability of natural selection and mutations is limited and the evidence we see cannot be explained by Darwinian evolution.

Estimating the prevalence of protein sequences adopting functional enzyme folds.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15321723
The Limits of Complex Adaptation: An Analysis Based on a Simple Model of Structured Bacterial Populations

http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.4
Experimental evolution, loss-of-function mutations, and “the first rule of adaptive evolution”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21243963
Diminishing Returns Epistasis Among Beneficial Mutations Decelerates Adaptation
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/332/6034/1190.abstract

Be careful about your sources. The second one is an ID journal.

Most mutations are neutral -- they confer neither a benefit or detriment to the organism. Statistically, detrimental is more likely than beneficial. This is where natural selection comes in. A detrimental modification is likely to be selected against, whereas a beneficial one is likely to increase in frequency within a population. It's very intuitive, if you think about it. Interestingly, your third link has nothing to do with that! An important insight (that is less intuitive) is that a loss-of-function mutation is not necessarily a detrimental mutation. In general it is. But if it gets selected for, from the previous point about selection's tendencies, then it conferred a benefit. If you imagine a creature losing its eyesight, for example, it no longer has to produce the proteins necessary for eyesight. Those proteins are expensive. Now, one may observe that it's better to have the eyesight and pay the cost than not to have the eyesight... but what about in a deep-sea fish where eyesight is useless or almost useless? It's a loss-of-function mutation that, overall, confers benefit. In our own evolutionary history, we had nocturnal creatures who lost their ability to differentiate colors. We regained it, and so the genes we have to see color are different from other mammals.
 
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stevevw

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Like the others from the Theo-Evo sect the Catholics need to re-write scripture. One thing amongst many is where did sin come from? Was it a result of Adams disobedience as written in Genesis....or some other reason that is non-biblical.
I think the important thing is the divine message behind these stories. We can try to read too much into the what is written and then start adding our own interpretations. The important thing is sin is real and it plays its part in separating us from God. The story of genesis and sin is related to how Jesus can take that sin away. Thats all thats important. We are all sinners and need salvation.
 
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This sort of question represents ignorance. Ignorance in that you don't understand what the Bible is, you don't understand what science is and you don't understand what knowledge is. If a story is in the Bible does that automatically make it historically true? Is that the only guideline? It would be absolutely and entirely laughable if you think that would be the case. The very notion that a story must be historical simply because it's in the Bible actually places the concept of "history" above the concept of "Scripture" so it's theologically in error. Stop being a laughing stock, it makes the rest of us Christians look horrible.

You are the one in error. Without Adam, where did we obtain our superior intelligence to Every other creature? Was it through magic, such as the ToE, or was it through Inheritance from someone who was made with an intelligence like God's? Gen 3:22 The answer is simple since the ONLY way to get Adam's unique special intelligence is to be born with it. Amen?
 
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I think the important thing is the divine message behind these stories. We can try to read too much into the what is written and then start adding our own interpretations. The important thing is sin is real and it plays its part in separating us from God. The story of genesis and sin is related to how Jesus can take that sin away. Thats all thats important. We are all sinners and need salvation.

Yes, true...but at the same time as christians we can't simply disregard other portions of scripture that explain original sin and the repercussion of that sin.
 
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Aelred of Rievaulx

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You are the one in error. Without Adam, where did we obtain our superior intelligence to Every other creature? Was it through magic, such as the ToE, or was it through Inheritance from someone who was made with an intelligence like God's? Gen 3:22 The answer is simple since the ONLY way to get Adam's unique special intelligence is to be born with it. Amen?
This is more of a philosophical problem and it has been highlighted by such thinkers as Thomas Nagel in Mind and Cosmos and in Alvin Plantinga's EAAN. We don't need a historical Adam for Plantinga's EAAN, one doesn't need to believe that there was a literal Adam in order to believe that naturalism is false. I personally think the EAAN has some strength, I don't think that a critique of naturalism necessitates that there has to have been a particular historical figure named Adam, albeit, I do think that there did develop in a particular species of hominids sense, rationality and self-consciousness. I think it was probably not magical, probably did not happen all at once and I don't think that there's anything more that I can say on the topic outside of pure speculation.
 
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The inerrancy of Scripture, Stevewv, is simply a human-made theory abut how God and Scripture may have interacted. Like any human-made theory, it needs top be tested out. It has been done so and found wanting. One reason is the numerous contradictions found throughout the Bible. Actually, Genesis gives two conflicting accounts, two contradictory chronologies, written at different times, by different authors. The notion of the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch (first five books) was dropped years ago by modern biblical studies. Why does the Bible contain two conflicting accounts? There were two very different traditions in ancient Judaism. The later redactors simply butt-edited them together. Many Christians accept that Scripture was divinely instpir4ed but that this does not mean there are not considerable human fingerprints all over the Bible. That's why the "Confession of 1967," which many churches follow, states that "the Scriptures, given under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, are nevertheless the works of men, conditioned by the language, thought forms, and literary fashions of the time and places at which they were written."
 
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The inerrancy of Scripture, Stevewv, is simply a human-made theory abut how God and Scripture may have interacted. Like any human-made theory, it needs top be tested out. It has been done so and found wanting. One reason is the numerous contradictions found throughout the Bible. Actually, Genesis gives two conflicting accounts, two contradictory chronologies, written at different times, by different authors. The notion of the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch (first five books) was dropped years ago by modern biblical studies. Why does the Bible contain two conflicting accounts? There were two very different traditions in ancient Judaism. The later redactors simply butt-edited them together. Many Christians accept that Scripture was divinely instpir4ed but that this does not mean there are not considerable human fingerprints all over the Bible. That's why the "Confession of 1967," which many churches follow, states that "the Scriptures, given under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, are nevertheless the works of men, conditioned by the language, thought forms, and literary fashions of the time and places at which they were written."

Your 2 creation account concept has been throughly refuted.

Then again you would agree that if you die you stay dead on day 3. Right? But you find youself in a delima....you need to believe a dead savior can defy all science, deny all you posted above and belive it happened.
 
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Hoghead1

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I have no idea where you are getting your information, -=57, but it isn't correct. Just for the record, here is why I say there are two conflicting creation stories. See for yourself and then see if you can reconcile them.


  1. \




    As I have said before, and will say again, I do not think Genesis can be taken as literal, scientific, or historical.
    When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



    Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scence, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



    Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

    “The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.



    Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



    There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



    There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



    There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



    Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



    P.S. Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
 
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-57

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I have no idea where you are getting your information, -=57, but it isn't correct. Just for the record, here is why I say there are two conflicting creation stories. See for yourself and then see if you can reconcile them.


  1. \




    As I have said before, and will say again, I do not think Genesis can be taken as literal, scientific, or historical.
    When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



    Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scence, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



    Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

    “The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.



    Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



    There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



    There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



    There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



    Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



    P.S. Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.

It's been explained to you numerous times Gen 2 is a re-cap for the most part of day six.
Secondly there was no second wife. Just Eve.
 
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