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TheDispensationsareImaginary

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BT

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xenia said:
All this testing of mankind...

Do you Dispensationalists ever get the feeling that God is in Heaven dressed in a white lab coat, applying various "chemicals" (the dispensations) on His creatures to see what they will do?

:scratch:
No that's not quite how it works. Dispensations are characterized by a requirement (commandment/condition) on mankind. When man fails this requirement, judgement follows. After the judgement God reveals a new (sometimes additional, this is noted as the concept of continuity and discontinuity) revelation and requirement upon mankind.

The Garden - requirement tend the garden. Commandment - Don't eat the fruit. Man's failure - he ate the fruit.. Judgement came

Conscience - requirement.. ok you are out of the garden (judgement from the last dispensation). Commandment Do good. Man's failure - Genesis 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.... Judgement came (The Flood)

etc etc etc

It has nothing to do with an experiment it is history... If Adam hadn't eaten the fruit there would be no need to kick him out of the Garden... If man hadn't been evil continually over the entire face of the earth there wouldn't have been the flood... If man had ruled justly.. no tower of Babel and scattering. If man stayed in the Promised Land and believed and obeyed God.... no Egyptian bondage and wilderness wandering. If man could have kept the whole law (and not repeatedly entered into national apostasy), and not perverted the law or added to the law and walked with God.. no captivity dispersion, the Messiah would come and setup the kingdom (but they rejected him too.. worse they killed him)... hence Grace
 
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xenia

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Sincere question here, not baiting. :wave:

I know some Baptists are both Dispensationalists and Calvinists. How do you think about God if it seems that He's set up these Dispensations when he knew man was doomed to fail each time?

I think I could understand a person being a Dispensationalist or a Calvinist, but not both at the same time. It would seem to make mankind out to be rats in a rigged maze.

Please don't be offended. I am wondering how you all think about things.




.
 
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FreeinChrist

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xenia said:
Sincere question here, not baiting. :wave:

I know some Baptists are both Dispensationalists and Calvinists. How do you think about God if it seems that He's set up these Dispensations when he knew man was doomed to fail each time?

I think I could understand a person being a Dispensationalist or a Calvinist, but not both at the same time. It would seem to make mankind out to be rats in a rigged maze.

Please don't be offended. I am wondering how you all think about things.
.
I am not a Calvinist - just being clear.

But there is no question that God set up the dispensations in my mind, and that He knew all along that man would fail because of our sin natures. We can never be perfect nor can we ever earn our way to heaven by being good. That is why He sent His own Son (as God Incarnate) to pay the price as the perfect Lamb of God. Through the dispensations, though, we see the progressive revelation to mankind of God's plan of salvation.
 
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BT

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xenia said:
Sincere question here, not baiting. :wave:

I know some Baptists are both Dispensationalists and Calvinists. How do you think about God if it seems that He's set up these Dispensations when he knew man was doomed to fail each time?

I think I could understand a person being a Dispensationalist or a Calvinist, but not both at the same time. It would seem to make mankind out to be rats in a rigged maze.

Please don't be offended. I am wondering how you all think about things.
Hi Xenia,

There is no offense in this question. While being a calvinist & a dispensationalist does seem to be an odd combination, there are several who hold to these two belief systems.

The question of calvinism with dispensationalism revolves around the concept of doxology. The calvinist sees God as sovereign (this is not an exclusive calvinistic doctrine but I would say it is the center of the calvinistic system.. God picks whom He does, does what He does etc. because He is sovereign it's the "potter and the clay" philosophy). The dispensationalist sees the over-riding plan of God throughout all of time even until the end of time as His own Glory. To the covenant theologian the purpose of God throughout time is the redemption of man. Whereas to the dispensationalist the purpose of God is to be glorified, we see that throughout time God is glorified in all that He does. In his selected time of revelation (progression) in His judgement, in His saving Grace... right to the end with the creation of the New heavens and the New Earth God is glorified.

So in effect the calvinist who is also a dispensationalist sees that God's sovereign plan glorifies Himself throughout time. The calvinistic dispensationalist would say that through each dispensation we see the outworking of God's sovereign Lordship power culminating in glory after glory until the end of time. God is sovereign, He can do whatever He wants to do, and has shown us this throughout the dispensations (time). He desires to be glorified, and so is glorified throughout His plan in all of creation.

So when he take two central presuppositions of the two systems and put them side by side we can see that they are not really so opposed to each other after all.

(I am, just FYI, not a calvinist in the least).
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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xenia said:
Sincere question here, not baiting. :wave:

No problem!

xenia said:
I know some Baptists are both Dispensationalists and Calvinists. How do you think about God if it seems that He's set up these Dispensations when he knew man was doomed to fail each time?

I think I could understand a person being a Dispensationalist or a Calvinist, but not both at the same time. It would seem to make mankind out to be rats in a rigged maze.

I am a dispensationalist and a calvinist. I don't think your question is confined to just dispensational Calvinists, it also applies to Christians in general. Do you think God setup Adam to fail in the garden of Eden? God knew what Adam would do beforehand, and yet God still gave Adam the command not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. One could suppose what would have happened had Adam not fallen, but the fact is he did fall and this fall was heavily factored into the rest of the Bible.


Lamorak Des Galis
 
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Hitch

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LamorakDesGalis said:
Dispensations are based on the covenants. If you recognize an "old" covenant and a "new" covenant, then you must admit there are two different eras, or dispensations. As FreeinChrist's question pointed out (and which you ignored), if there wasn't any difference, then we would be observing animal sacrifices according to the regulations of the Mosaic covenant.



Others here have said you lack understanding of dispensationalism, and that really shows in your statement above. Scofield believed in John 1:17:

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

In fact, here are Scofield's comments on John 1:17 in the 1917 Scofield Reference Bible:

It is, therefore, constantly set in contrast to law, under which God demands righteousness from man, as, under grace, he gives righteousness to man Romans 3:21,22; 8:4; Philemon 3:9. Law is connected with Moses and works; grace with Christ and faith.


[But if you knew much about dispensationalism you would know that the 'fifth Dispensation 'extends from Sinia to the Calvary from the Exodus to the Cross ; from Exodus 19;8, to Matthew 27;35.] ( I never said Cy lacked internalconflicts, but thats another thread.)




Lamorak Des Galis
Yawn. Interesting you didnt quote ol Cy's remarks on the Sermon on the Mount.


It really shows you lack an understanding of dispensationalism.

Dispensations are based on the covenants. If you recognize an "old" covenant and a "new" covenant, then you must admit there are two different eras, or dispensations. As FreeinChrist's question pointed out (and which you ignored), if there wasn't any difference, then we would be observing animal sacrifices according to the regulations of the Mosaic covenant.


LOL kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel LDG. There is no point here and the only thing of interest is your desperation. Regognizing the Old and New Covenants doesn maks dispenationalists out of the vast majority of believes who are not. Its childish and desperate to even bring it up.

BTW if animal sacrfices are of a past 'dispensation' why do you believe we will return to them in the future? Since you read my answer to Free I know you saw this question,,,
 
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Hitch

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There is no offense in this question. While being a calvinist & a dispensationalist does seem to be an odd combination, there are several who hold to these two belief systems.


What does this have to do with the topic? which none of you have addressed:

TheDispensationsareImaginary


If you think not you are invited to prove them from Scripture. Two or three NT passages in support would be effective.
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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Hitch said:
LOL kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel LDG. There is no point here and the only thing of interest is your desperation. Regognizing the Old and New Covenants doesn maks dispenationalists out of the vast majority of believes who are not. Its childish and desperate to even bring it up.

Hitch, you just ignored the point and started making stuff up. I never said recognizing the difference between OT/NT makes one a dispensationalist. Your calling someone "childish" and "desperate" shows you are abandoning your original argument and resorting to ad hominem attacks.

Hitch said:
BTW if animal sacrfices are of a past 'dispensation' why do you believe we will return to them in the future? Since you read my answer to Free I know you saw this question,,,

Answer me first - do you recognize that there are least two "dispensations" - OT and NT? Are you recognizing there is another (future) one as well?


Lamorak Des Galis
 
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Hitch

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LamorakDesGalis said:
Hitch, you just ignored the point and started making stuff up. I never said recognizing the difference between OT/NT makes one a dispensationalist. Your calling someone "childish" and "desperate" shows you are abandoning your original argument and resorting to ad hominem attacks.


I also regognize it was not your question originally,but since you have adopted it explain the point, if it is not the obvious .


Answer me first - do you recognize that there are least two "dispensations" - OT and NT? Are you recognizing there is another (future) one as well?



Lamorak Des Galis
If I recall correctly I started this thread...

take care

Hitch
 
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Terral

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Hitch:
Hitch >> If you think not you are invited to prove them from Scripture. Two or three NT passages in support would be effective.

Providing verses of Scripture to prove God deals with peoples, nations and kingdoms through dispensations is child’s play. If you could recognize the truth by merely reading the Bible, then why ask such a question? No sir. You need a few verses and some Greek definitions of terms in order to come to any elementary understanding of the basic principle being taught in the Scriptures. Let’s begin with the dispensation of God’s grace given to Paul for us today.
“For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles -- if indeed you have heard of the dispensation [ oikonomia #3622 ] of God's grace which was given to me for you; that by revelation [ apokalupsis #602 ] there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.” Eph. 3:1-3.

Dispensation:

“oikonomia - primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship," Luke_16:2-4; elsewhere only in the Epistles of Paul, who applies it

(a) to the responsibility entrusted to him of preaching the Gospel, 1_Cor_9:17 (RV, "stewardship," AV, "dispensation");

(b) to the stewardship committed to him "to fulfill the Word of God," the fulfillment being the unfolding of the completion of the Divinely arranged and IMPARTED CYCLE OF TRUTHS which are consummated in THE TRUTH relating to the CHURCH as the BODY OF CHRIST, Col_1:25 (RV and AV, "dispensation"); so in Eph_3:2, of the GRACE OF GOD given him as a STEWARDSHIP ("dispensation") in regard to the same "MYSTERY;"

(c) in Eph_1:10; Eph_3:9, it is used of the arrangement or ADMINISTRATION BY GOD, by which in "the fullness of the times" (or seasons) God will sum up all things in the heavens and on earth in Christ. In Eph_3:9 some mss. have koinonia, "fellowship," for oikonomia, "dispensation." In 1_Tim_1:4 oikonomia may mean either a stewardship in the sense of 1(a) above, or a "dispensation" in the sense of 1(c). The reading oikodomia, "edifying," in some mss., is not to be accepted. See STEWARDSHIP.

Note: A "dispensation" is not a period or epoch (a common, but erroneous, use of the word), but a mode of dealing, an arrangement, or administration of affairs. Cp. oikonomos, "a steward," and oikonomeo, "to be a steward."

Full definition here: http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/find_term.pl


The example of a household through which God deals differently than everyone else is Israel of the flesh. The Lord God raised Moses up to ‘dispense’ the Law to Israel in the same way that the Apostle Paul is ‘dispensing’ Grace Doctrine in his Epistles. Paul contrasts the two administrations in Romans 9:1-9.


In Christ,



Terral

 
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Hitch

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Providing verses of Scripture to prove God deals with peoples, nations and kingdoms through dispensations is child’s play.



TheDispensationsareImaginary


If you think not you are invited to prove them from Scripture. Two or three NT passages in support would be effective.

Still waiting..
 
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Terral

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Hitch:
Hitch >> Still waiting..

And you shall continue to wait. I can give you Scripture and the Greek definitions. That is no guarantee you will understand anything. The fact you lived this long with no understanding on this topic speaks volumes. From the looks of your conversations with other members here, you are not here to seriously discuss anything. Whatever point you are trying to prove, GL with it. The process is not giving you the appearance of being the sharpest knife in the drawer. If quoting you Scripture was the key, then you would have figured this stuff out by now.

If there is anything in my post you care to refute, then please be my guest.

In Christ,

Terral
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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Hitch said:
If I recall correctly I started this thread...

...And therefore??

Declaring that dispensations are imaginary means Anti-dispensational bias has gotten in the way of seeing what many non-dispensational Christians have said in past centuries. The Westminster Confession for example, makes reference to dispensations here:

Chapter 7 - Of God's Covenant with Man

6. Under the gospel, when Christ the substance was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed, are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper; which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity and less outward glory, yet in them it is held forth in more fulness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy, to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles; and is called the New Testament. There are not, therefore, two covenants of grace differing in substance, but one and the same under various dispensations.


Lamorak Des Galis
 
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Ebb

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LamorakDesGalis said:
...And therefore??

Declaring that dispensations are imaginary means Anti-dispensational bias has gotten in the way of seeing what many non-dispensational Christians have said in past centuries. The Westminster Confession for example, makes reference to dispensations here:

Chapter 7 - Of God's Covenant with Man

6. Under the gospel, when Christ the substance was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed, are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper; which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity and less outward glory, yet in them it is held forth in more fulness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy, to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles; and is called the New Testament. There are not, therefore, two covenants of grace differing in substance, but one and the same under various dispensations.


Lamorak Des Galis
Yes, one covenant of grace under various dispensations. Note that is says "Not two (or more) covenants of grace differing in substance, but one and the same under various dispensations".

Here is the same section of the WCF with the scriptural footnotes, and in its context.

Chapter VII Of God's Covenant With Man
I. The distance between God and the creature is go great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto Him as their Creator, yet they could never have any fruition of Him as their blessedness and reward, but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which He has been pleased to express by way of covenant.[1]

II. The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works,[2] wherein life was promised to Adam; and in him to his posterity,[3] upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.[4]

III. Man, by his fall, having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second,[5] commonly called the covenant of grace; wherein He freely offers unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ; requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved,[6] and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life His Holy Spirit, to make them willing, and able to believe.[7]

IV. This covenant of grace is frequently set forth in scripture by the name of a testament, in reference to the death of Jesus Christ the Testator, and to the everlasting inheritance, with all things belonging to it, therein bequeathed.[8]

V. This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of the Gospel:[9] under the law it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all foresignifying Christ to come;[10] which were, for that time, sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah,[11] by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation; and is called the Old Testament.[12]

VI. Under the Gospel, when Christ, the substance,[13] was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper:[14] which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity, and less outward glory, yet, in them, it is held forth in more fullness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy,[15] to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles;[16] and is called the New Testament.[17] There are not therefore two covenants of grace, differing in substance, but one and the same, under various dispensations.[18]

Do dispensationalists believe in dispensations in this context?
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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No, I did not say dispensationalists hold to the Covenant of Grace. Dispensationalists do hold to an overarching plan of redemption; we believe there is one way of salvation: by grace through faith, the basis of which is the shed blood of Jesus. Dispensational dispensations are administrations intimately linked to the Biblical Covenants revealed in Scripture.


Lamorak Des Galis
 
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Ebb

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LamorakDesGalis said:
No, I did not say dispensationalists hold to the Covenant of Grace. Dispensationalists do hold to an overarching plan of redemption; we believe there is one way of salvation: by grace through faith, the basis of which is the shed blood of Jesus. Dispensational dispensations are administrations intimately linked to the Biblical Covenants revealed in Scripture.


Lamorak Des Galis
Apparently, some dispensationalists have in the past:

16 We are, of course, aware that men like Lewis Sperry Chafer, John Walvoord, and Herman A. Hoyt have held to a unifying covenant of grace. And indeed it is possible to be a dispensationalist and hold to a form of covenant theology (See e.g. Michael A. Harbin, "The Hermeneutics of Covenant Theology," in Vital Prophetic Issues, (Grand Rapids: Kregel Resources, 1995) ed. Roy B. Zuck, pp.34-35).

http://www.conservativeonline.org/articles/EschatologyOfCovenantTheology.htm#_edn16
 
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Terral

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Lamora, Ebb:
Lamorak >> No, I did not say dispensationalists hold to the Covenant of Grace.

Ebb >> Apparently, some dispensationalists have in the past:

The phrase “Covenant of Grace” is from a man-made doctrine based upon nothing in Scripture. We are introduced to God’s grace by the ‘faith’ that comes from hearing the ‘word concerning Christ.’ Rom. 10:17.
“So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.” Rom. 10:17.

This is a fact that escapes the notice of many, that the ‘faith’ to believe the Gospel is present within the ‘preacher’ (Rom. 10:14) carrying the message. The Holy Spirit inside the preacher hands the hearer of the ‘word of Christ’ the ‘faith’ to believe the message the very instant that person places himself into the position of obedience. Only then is the righteousness of God revealed from “faith to faith.”
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith." Rom. 1:16+17.

That is the moment that the hearer of the gospel receives the ‘faith’ to believe the message and also is introduced to God’s grace.
“Therefore, having been justified by faith [ past event by hearing], we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.” Rom. 5:1+2.

This is also the very moment that the hearer receives the Spirit by ‘hearing with faith.’ Gal. 3:2. The phrase ‘Covenant of Grace’ is misleading and in a way can work to hide the truth of how we are introduced to God’s grace through obedience to the Gospel. After all, a Covenant is a promise to do something in the future, and we become a ‘son of God’ (Rom. 8:14, 19) the moment we believe.

In Christ,

Terral
 
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Ebb

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Terral said:
Lamora, Ebb:
[/font][/size]
The phrase “Covenant of Grace” is from a man-made doctrine based upon nothing in Scripture.
The New Testament basis for the covenant of grace is given in post 35, in the footnotes provided.

Yet, the OP has yet to be answered by dispensationalists using two or three New Testament passages.

Hitch said:
If you think not you are invited to prove them from Scripture. Two or three NT passages in support would be effective.
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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Ebb said:
Apparently, some dispensationalists have in the past:

16 We are, of course, aware that men like Lewis Sperry Chafer, John Walvoord, and Herman A. Hoyt have held to a unifying covenant of grace. And indeed it is possible to be a dispensationalist and hold to a form of covenant theology (See e.g. Michael A. Harbin, "The Hermeneutics of Covenant Theology," in Vital Prophetic Issues, (Grand Rapids: Kregel Resources, 1995) ed. Roy B. Zuck, pp.34-35).

http://www.conservativeonline.org/articles/EschatologyOfCovenantTheology.htm#_edn16

Yes, some did, but that does not mean dispensationalism as a whole (i.e., all dispensationalists) hold to the Covenant of Grace as expressed in the Westminister Confession.


Lamorak Des Galis
 
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