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The worst thing about Calvinism

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Back up, now. Are we still discussing your Coast Guard scenario? You have a habit of not sticking with a topic.

Actually, I was addressing the one portion of your post and I did not get to other portion yet.
But you did not address the morality of the scenario of the coast guard post.
You are seeking to find fault in the coast guard scenario in some other way so as to ignore the moral issue. But Jesus did not say that the good shepherd paid for sins of the sheep in his parable of the one lost sheep and nor did the parable talk about the wicked. So you are simply trying to see fault in my parable where there is none. We know parables do not have to mention specifics so as to convey spiritual truth in relation to a truth we know in the real world. We also know that the Canaanite woman was able to expound upon Jesus's parable with a real world parable of her own. So we can make our own parables, too.


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And for the record, no Calvinist believes the tripe you just spewed.

This is what it sounds like they believe every time I talk with them; And I have talked with them for many years on forums. If I am wrong, then please by all means correct me and give me sources to Calvinistic websites.


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Hammster

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Actually, I was addressing the one portion of your post and I did not get to other portion yet.
But you did not address the morality of the scenario of the coast guard post.
You are seeking to find fault in the coast guard scenario in some other way so as to ignore the moral issue. But Jesus did not say that the good shepherd paid for sins of the sheep in his parable of the one lost sheep and nor did the parable talk about the wicked. So you are simply trying to see fault in my parable where there is none. We know parables do not have to mention specifics so as to convey spiritual truth in relation to a truth we know in the real world. We also know that the Canaanite woman was able to expound upon Jesus's parable with a real world parable of her own. So we can make our own parables, too.


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I didn't find fault in your parable. I addressed it. Again, Jesus saves all of His sheep (even goes after that wayward one). The Coast Guard saves those they are sent to save, ideally.

I think the issue is that my answer doesn't fit your presupposed narrative, and instead of admitting that, you just want to double down.
 
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Hammster

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This is what it sounds like they believe every time I talk with them; And I have talked with them for many years on forums. If I am wrong, then please by all means correct me and give me sources to Calvinistic websites.


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Then the fault lies with you. If us Reformed Theology folks are mostly in agreement, and you keep giving wrong views, then the likelihood of all of us miscommunicating is very slim.

Here's a thread that may help.

The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.
 
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ClementofA

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If everyone is eventually saved as Universalists believe and if Christ died for everyone, then why did He say we must believe in Him to be saved?
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of god abides on him." John 3:36

Psa. 103:9: He will not always chide, neither will he keep His anger forever.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies never come to an end. . . . For the Lord will not reject forever. Although he causes grief, he will have compassion according to the abundance of his steadfast love; for he does not willingly afflict or grieve anyone.

A literal version reads:

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies. Compare 1 Pet.3:18-20 + 4:6.

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of life "after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

Ilaria Ramelli, <i>The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena</i> | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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I didn't find fault in your parable. I addressed it. Again, Jesus saves all of His sheep (even goes after that wayward one). The Coast Guard saves those they are sent to save, ideally.

I think the issue is that my answer doesn't fit your presupposed narrative, and instead of admitting that, you just want to double down.

The heart of the question is: Does your God force regenerate or force save or make sheep with no free will choice of the person whatsoever (regardless of their present or potential future free willed choices)?
Or does God just choose a select few to be saved at random? Is there some kind of purpose or reason behind why God saves some and does not save others? I know you call them sheep. That's not good enough. You got to give me the moral motivation here as to how God saves. If there is no morality involved then what we have is a serious problem in your belief here.

So you need you clarify here what you believe instead of continuing to be evasive.


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Then the fault lies with you. If us Reformed Theology folks are mostly in agreement, and you keep giving wrong views, then the likelihood of all of us miscommunicating is very slim.

Here's a thread that may help.

The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.

I was beginning to read your thread and there a few posters there that are already refuting Calvinism with Scripture as it is written according to sources you provided. Seems like a pretty cut and dried case against Calvinism if you ask me.


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Dear Hammster:

If you were to consider challenging your beliefs (to make sure they are true without a shadow of a doubt), I would recommend checking out this article here by a former Calvinist.

Calvinism Critiqued by a Former Calvinist

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


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Hammster

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The heart of the question is: Does your God force regenerate or force save or make sheep with no free will choice of the person whatsoever (regardless of their present or potential future free willed choices)?
Or does God just choose a select few to be saved at random? Is there some kind of purpose or reason behind why God saves some and does not save others? I know you call them sheep. That's not good enough. You got to give me the moral motivation here as to how God saves. If there is no morality involved then what we have is a serious problem in your belief here.

So you need you clarify here what you believe instead of continuing to be evasive.


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Once again, whatever God does is morally good. It doesn't need to line up with your idea of good to be good.
 
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Hammster

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I was beginning to read your thread and there a few posters there that are already refuting Calvinism with Scripture as it is written according to sources you provided. Seems like a pretty cut and dried case against Calvinism if you ask me.


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It's always easier to let others do the work.
 
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Hammster

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Dear Hammster:

If you were to consider challenging your beliefs (to make sure they are true without a shadow of a doubt), I would recommend checking out this article here by a former Calvinist.

Calvinism Critiqued by a Former Calvinist

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


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Well, I've read plenty of those accounts. I've probably not read that one, but my guess, if it's like most, is that there's a gulf between what they thought was Calvinism and what Reformed Theology actually teaches.

I could be wrong, though.

And I have my beliefs somewhat challenged on here. At least, what some perceive what I believe
 
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Hammster

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Dear Hammster:

If you were to consider challenging your beliefs (to make sure they are true without a shadow of a doubt), I would recommend checking out this article here by a former Calvinist.

Calvinism Critiqued by a Former Calvinist

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


...
Okay, I read the part on the atonement. That was quite weak.
 
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ClementofA

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If everyone got saved, might as well throw out all the scriptures that pertain to Judgment Day, the book of Revelation, Daniel 12, etc. And there will be no Millennial Kingdom because that can't happen unless their is a cleansing of some kind. All the teachings about the curse of sin having on humanity would be useless. All the judgments in the past wouldn't be lessons for us to learn.
"The wages of sin is death" is a primary theme throughout the Bible that resonates and warns us of its consequences. What, shall we think there are no consequences to sin? Actually, the Good News would have somewhat of a different message if that were so: "Everyone rejoice, ya'll are goin to heaven no matter what you believe, whatever path, religion, philosophy, good or bad, even if you don't believe in God, ya'll get it!" Yippie Ki Yo Ki Ya! ... Or hallelujah.

The early Church Father, Origen [c 200 AD], who was a universalist, believed there were consequences for sin, that some might spend ages in hell before finally being saved. Does that sound like something you'ld want to experience, or that there are no consequences for sin?

As for Dan. 12:2...

The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further." (Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

The early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further" & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life eonian" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning in Jn. 3:16 & elsewhere.

Verse 3 speaks of those bringing "many" to righteousness. The "many" of verse 2, i.e. universal salvation.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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jimmyjimmy

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The heart of the question is: Does your God force regenerate or force save or make sheep with no free will choice of the person whatsoever (regardless of their present or potential future free willed choices)

Firstly, the question is: Does God have the right to do whatever He wishes with His creation.

Secondly, has anyone ever said that they were forced when being saved from a burning building? Salvation, being restored and redeemed, is always a good thing.

Or does God just choose a select few to be saved at random? Is there some kind of purpose or reason behind why God saves some and does not save others?

There is a reason, He does what brings Him glory, and He acts according to His good pleasure.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Dear Hammster:

If you were to consider challenging your beliefs (to make sure they are true without a shadow of a doubt), I would recommend checking out this article here by a former Calvinist.

Calvinism Critiqued by a Former Calvinist

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


...

You don't seem to understand that Hammster was not always a Calvinist. In fact, he was just as opposed to it as you now are, so he understands both sides of this discussion, as do I. The only one who doesn't understand both sides is you.
 
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You don't seem to understand that Hammster was not always a Calvinist. In fact, he was just as opposed to it as you now are, so he understands both sides of this discussion, as do I. The only one who doesn't understand both sides is you.

I really cannot see how that is possible he believed exactly like me. Did he think it was immoral for God to choose some for salvation and yet not choose others (When He has the power to save them all)? I doubt it. For me it is a moral issue that is backed up by Scripture. There are too many verses that refute Calivnism. It is a violation of basic morality. There is 0% chance that Calvinism is even remotely true in the Bible. It would be like saying night is day. Calvinism is just not possible by a long shot. You would have a better chance at convincing me that rain was not wet.

There are many who used to be die hard Calvinists and they realized the error and problems within it.


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Hammster

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Did he think it was immoral for God to choose some for salvation and yet not choose others (When He has the power to save them all)?
I thought the Calvinist view made God immoral for doing so. If you think He's immoral for doing so, you need to take it up with Him.
 
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Hammster

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There are many who used to be die hard Calvinists and they realized the error and problems within it.
I was a die-hard synergist until I realized that it couldn't be fully supported scripturally without serious contradictions.
 
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Firstly, the question is: Does God have the right to do whatever He wishes with His creation.

No. It is impossible for God to do things outside His loving and good nature involving His creation because God is love and God alone is good. There are certain things that are impossible for God. God cannot do anything sinful. Nor can God tempt man to sin. Every man is drawn away by their own lust and desires. God always provides a way of escape and does not tempt man what he is able to bear. So no. God is not as you imagine who has the right to do whatever He wishes (Which would be to act contrary to His good and loving nature).

You said:
Secondly, has anyone ever said that they were forced when being saved from a burning building? Salvation, being restored and redeemed, is always a good thing.

God gave man free will choice to love Him otherwise it is not true love. For example: Marriages are built upon two people both agreeing of their own free will to love each other. The Lord Jesus compares the saints with being like that of a bride. We know if a man tries to force his love upon a woman, it is not true love but something dark and twisted. There are cases were females have been kidnapped and abused and they sometimes sympathesize with their kidnapper whereby they love the kidnapper. In essence a man has forced a carnal worldly love upon them. But it is not true love. True love is always by choice and it is not forced upon a person. Love is long suffering and is kind and does not seek it's own.

You said:
There is a reason, He does what brings Him glory, and He acts according to His good pleasure.

God acting according to His good pleasure is not a violation of God's holiness, goodness, or love. Men are capable of knowing God's love, and goodness in this life if they truly seek Him as He is presented in Scripture.


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