The World Needs Women Priests

[antwaniiz]

How do you define prophet; if it's not someone who prophesies?

Prophet is male gender who prophesies.

Prophetess is female gender who prophesies.

 

[antwaniiz]

I do not know you well enough to mock you. I can only mock the words being said. I find it humorous that you have been called by a deity who does not let you name it.

Are you mocking what I said?

 

[Strong in Him]

Prophet is male gender who prophesies.

Prophetess is female gender who prophesies.

The result is still the same - proclamations of God's word.
Can be done by men and women.

 

[antwaniiz]

The result is still the same - proclamations of God's word.
Can be done by men and women.

God judge between you and I.
Now it is up to Him.

 

[Strong in Him]

God judge between you and I.
Now it is up to Him.

What does that mean??

 

[antwaniiz]

What does that mean??

It means well for me.

 

[Strong in Him]

It means well for me.

There are examples in the Bible of women who prophesied; some translations say that they were prophets, others say "prophetess".
I don't see what difference it makes or what point you are trying to make; in the Bible, women prophesied. It doesn't matter whether you call them prophetesses or female prophets - they were women who listened to God's word and passed it on to others.

Why would God need to "judge between us"? I don't get your point.

 

[antwaniiz]

There are examples in the Bible of women who prophesied; some translations say that they were prophets, others say "prophetess".
I don't see what difference it makes or what point you are trying to make; in the Bible, women prophesied. It doesn't matter whether you call them prophetesses or female prophets - they were women who listened to God's word and passed it on to others.

Why would God need to "judge between us"? I don't get your point.

Are you not disputing what I said as the truth?

A. Yes
B. No

 

[Strong in Him]

Are you not disputing what I said as the truth?

A. Yes
B. No

What truth are you talking about?

 

[The Liturgist]

I'd have to differ with you there. While the tightly constructed theological arguments in favour of a male sacramental priesthood do not rest on a declaration of sexism, their overall effect is undeniably sexist. They posit that Christ's maleness is more important in his sacramental representation than his humanity; and, by implication, that women are further removed from the humanity that Christ assumed for our sake.

You raise a very compelling point with regards to the Roman Catholic Church, one which to my chagrin I had not thought about.

In case of the Orthodox, however, I am not sure this would apply, as their rationale for not having female clergy is really very considerably more complicated, and I have found that simplistic answers, for example, to say that the Orthodox only ordain male priests because their tradition only allows them to do this and the Orthodox do not believe they have the authority to depart from tradition, while not inaccurate, are nonetheless entirely inadequete. Metropolitan Kallistos Ware for his part argued the Orthodox Church needs to clearly explain why it only ordains men, but having read a vast number of books on Orthodox theology, I think a simple answer is quite impossible, given the mystical aspects of the Orthodox liturgy. It would really take several threads to merely scratch the surface of this subject.

That being said, despite the lack of female presbyters and bishops, I don’t think we would be justified if we were to call the Orthodox Church sexist. Aside from the fact that they venerate the Theotokos more than anyone else, and the extreme veneration female saints like Mary and Martha of Bethany, Mary Magdalene, Theclas, and Nino receive (the Orthodox are to my knowledge the only Christians who acknowledge the existence of, and actively venerate, female apostles), there is also the way in which deaconesses and nuns are venerated in the Orthodox Church. Specifically, Orthodox nuns are addressed as “Mother” and not as “Sister,” the female hegumens of Orthodox convents have the same authority in their convents as male hegumens have in their monasteries; what is more these hegumens and nuns are vested in a manner very similiar to the way their male counterparts are vested.

But what is most important is twofold: the two highest spiritual attainments in the Orthodox church are not the priesthood or episcopate, which are mere liturgical offices which do not by themselves indicate anything more than mere competence on the part of the priest or bishop, but rather, the status of elder (starets or staritsa) and the Great Schema. Orthodox Christians will seek out a starets or staritsa as their personal spiritual mentor and confessor wherever one is available, and over the years, a great many women have been called to this ministry, a ministry which, to the Orthodox faithful, is far more individually important than the liturgical ministry of the priesthood and episcopate. In the Eastern Orthodox Church, because literally everything about the services except for the homily is predetermined by the Typikon*, priests are somewhat interchangeable, especially in the monastic environment where, in my experience, Orthodox hieromonks (monastic priests) do not even bother to preach a homily (except at the Easter liturgy, when the Paschal Homily of St. John Chrysostom is read in the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Paschal Homily of St. Athanasius is read in the Coptic Orthodox Church).

Now, parish priests, because of the bond they form with their parishioners, their managerial role, and the fact that unlike priests serving in monasteries, they preach homilies, are not interchangeable, however, the disruption caused when a priest retires and is replaced is not as severe as it can be in other churches. It is probably most noticeable in the Coptic Church and the Syriac Orthodox Church, because these churches in recent years have placed a particular emphasis on preaching (especially the Copts), and furthermore, unlike the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, there are a number of discretionary choices available to Coptic and Syriac priests (including choice of anaphora, choice of fraction prayer in the Coptic church, et cetera). This might also be the case in the Ethiopian Church; I have not had the chance to study how things work with their priesthood (but interestingly enough, Ethiopian liturgies are supposed to be celebrated by at least two priests in addition to deacons, readers and debteras). But even in a Coptic monastery, the individuality of the priests vanishes entirely. You can only really tell which hieromonk is serving a given liturgy in a monastery if you look closely (this can be a challenge, as Eastern Orthodox monasteries often serve the liturgy at night, by candlelight, with the temple extremely dimly lit, and Coptic hieromonks wear hooded vestments during the liturgy which are very different from those worn by parish priests, and which make it harder to tell them apart).

On the other hand, the function of elders in the Orthodox Church is entirely personal and irreplaceable. The most famous starets of recent years is St. Seraphim of Sarov, but more recently, during the Soviet persecution, there was the most celebrated staritsa of recent years, St. Matrona of Moscow. The importance of starets and staritsa to their followers cannot be overstated, since generally Orthodox Christians who find a starets or staritsa who they identify with will tend to offer obedience to that starets ot staritsa in all things - which does pose a danger in terms of imposters, such as Rasputin, who falsely claim to be elders in order to be able to manipulate people for their own end. Bishops consequently tend to closely monitor anyone who gains a reputation as a starets or staritsa; as you have probably read, the Russian Orthodox hierarchy tried repeatedly to warn Czar Nicholas and his wife about Rasputin - that he was an imposter, that he had never been ordained as a monk but rather had been ejected from several monasteries for inappropriate behavior, and that he was exploiting them, but alas, he already had the Czar and Czarina under his control.

In the case of St. Matrona however, the hierarchy considered her to be entirely legitimate, although she was nonetheless the victim of sexist abuse, being acused of witchcraft (I suspect these baseless accusations might have been initiated by the NKVD/KGB in an effort to discredit her, as she was known to be extremely anti-Soviet, and her followers managed miraculously to keep her hidden from the secret police despite numerous efforts to locate her and throw her in the GULAG.

As important as starets and staritsas are, however, the highest spiritual attainment in the Eastern Orthodox church is the Great Schema, which is granted only to those monks and nuns who are considered to have truly mastered the passions (there is also the Little Schema, which I believe is given to monks and nuns who make formal vows, and thus progress from the rank of Rassophore, or Novice, to Stavrophore, or professed monastic). To put the Great Schema into perspective, many monasteries only grant it to monks and nuns on their deathbed. Greeks normally wear the Great Schema under their habit to avoid the appearance of pride, whereas Russians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians and, I think, Romanians, wear it on the outside of their robes. Schemamonks and schemanuns are considered to be set apart from the rest of the monastic community, and it should be noted that the schema is considered superior to the Episcopate; if someone is ordained bishop, they are disqualified from receiving the Great Schema, and conversely, schemamonks do not serve as bishops.

I would also note that the wives of priests are referred to as “Presbytera” and are often addressed as “Mother” and are subject to the same degree of veneration as their husbands, and indeed have their own particular responsibilities in the life of a parish which extend substantially beyond what one would expect the spouse of a Western priest to commit to.

Given the totality of these facts, I just do not think we can fairly allege sexism on the part of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, or, for that matter, on the part of the sui juris Eastern Rite Catholics who have largely the same traditions, liturgy and spirituality, except to the extent that the Eastern Catholics are ultimatrly, despite their protestations to the contrary, subordinated to the Pope and the College of Cardinals, who are invariably Western Rite and Western Rite-dominated, respectively. And your argument of sexism on the part of the Roman Catholic Church I think does stick, at least as far as the Western Rite is concerned.

I take it you mean here, whether the women of a given church desire to have women clergy. That said, I don't think that really is such a big issue.
C
None of this ought to be about what we "desire." It ought to be about obedience to God and God's leading of the Church and of individuals within it. Either God calls women, or God doesn't. Our job is to discern that and act accordingly, not sit about dithering about whether so-and-so is going to be upset by what God is doing in/through/with God's own Church.

While I get what you are saying, I strongly feel that the wishes of the laity of a church have to be respected. For example, it was the laity of the Orthodox Church who, together with one bishop, St. Mark of Ephesus, decided to resist the efforts of the Council of Florence to unite the Eastern Orthodox Church with the Roman Catholic Church under very unfavorable terms, in return for military aid which would have saved the Byzantine Empire from conquest by the Ottomans and the horrors of Turkokratia. Did the laity make the right decision? They preserved the distinct doctrines of the Orthodox faith, but also perpetuated a schism, and their actions led to their brutal subjugation by the Turks, and eventually, to the genocide of Pontic Greeks in 1915 and the later “ethnic cleansing” of most of the remaining Christians of Turkey in the population transfer with Greece in the 1920s. Most Orthodox would defend that decision, however.

Now, there is no doubt in my mind that God calls women, but there are different opinions about which specific ministries God calls women to perform. For example, in ancient Israel, God called Deborah to serve as a Judge, wielding extreme political power, but not as a sacerdotal Kohen Gadol. This is not to say that God does not call women to serve as priests now. I have no doubt, for example, that you were called. However, the unfortunate reality is that not everyone is prepared to accept women in liturgical ministries, and even worse are misogynistic churches which will not countenance women serving in any capacity. I feel very strongly that, in order to avoid schism and ensure that women who are called have an opportunity to serve, the preference of the women of a given Protestant church should determine the ordination policies for pastoral offices. There is also, I would note, a very excellent “safety valve” in all of this, in that if a woman is called, but her church is unable to install her into a ministry that fits her calling, the blessed arrival of religious freedom provides a means by which women can affiliate with churches where their call is properly appreciated.

Because, frankly, if a church were to reject you, for example, I would argue they were unworthy of you, and God’s call would be better answered in a church that did value you and was prepared to equip you to respond to that call. For example, if you were from Sydney, to use a specific, local example, given the choice between trying to agitate for a change in the local archdiocese that could take decades and would likely only be partially implemented, due to the probability of a schism, or instead serving in the Uniting Church if you felt specifically called to minister in Sydney, or, if not, serving in one of the more authentically Anglican provinces in Australia, I would think either of those two options would be more productive.

As an aside, I do have to confess I am not a great fan of the Archdiocese of Sydney; they are so militantly low church/evangelical as to not really be Anglican, as far as I am concerned; their BCP replacement is something of a trainwreck, only their main cathedral has anything approaching decent liturgics, and in their extreme intolerance for broad church and high church Anglicans and Anglo Catholics, they violate the principle of Latitudinarianism which one could argue is the secret underpinning of the Elizabethan Settlement and the means by which unity is preserved in diversity, which makes Anglicanism such a beautiful and special tradition.

And I would add, the term "priestess" is a slur in Christian circles, since it equates women in the ministry with Pagan religious leaders, and also implies that our ministry is different from/inferior to that of men, and has often been considered a flame when directed at others on CF.

Indeed, it is a terrible slur, and if anyone called you or one of your female colleagues that, I for one would consider it an act of hate speech.

Now, I believe I told you about the Lutheran parish near San Francisco, Ebeneezer Lutheran Church, which has rebranded itself “herchurch” and which sells “Mother Goddess Rosaries” which depict a female diety (which to me appears to be Aurora or Oestra). That church is technically engaging in pagan worship practices, which I would imagine pious female priests from around the world would take extreme offense to, particularly since “herchurch” rather arrogantly claims to be representing the spiritual desires of women in the Church, but even in that egregious case, I would not call the rector of that parish a priestess.

By the way, one of my best friends died; his widow is staying with me, but she in her shock did fall and bruise her hip; I am also still in shock about it as I found him unresponsive, so if you could please pray for all of us @Paidiske I would really appreciate it. I admire you and your work to a very great extent and love conversing with you on this forum. Your family is greatly blessed to have you, as are your past, present and future parishioners.

 

[antwaniiz]

What truth are you talking about?

Are you disputing what I posted on this thread?

A. Yes
B. No

 

[Strong in Him]

Are you disputing what I posted on this thread?

A. Yes
B. No

I'm trying to understand what your point is.

You appear to be saying that women can't be prophets because, where there were women who prophesied, they were called prophetesses.
My question was; what's the difference? They still prophesied and gave God's word to men.

 

[Hmm]

I'm trying to understand what your point is.

You appear to be saying that women can't be prophets because, where there were women who prophesied, they were called prophetesses.
My question was; what's the difference? They still prophesied and gave God's word to men.

It's great that you're in the ministry. I go to an Anglican church where both the rector and curate are women and it's a great church!

I think Jesus's resurrection inaugurated the start of a new way of living where heaven and earth start to come together. It's significant that the first witnesses to the resurrection were women. I'm a man btw!

 

[Strong in Him]

It's great that you're in the ministry.

Well I'm a lay preacher only; not ordained.
I don't know how much longer I'll do that for either.

I go to an Anglican church where both the rector and curate are women and it's a great church!

Fantastic.

I think Jesus's resurrection inaugurated the start of a new way of living where heaven and earth start to come together. It's significant that the first witnesses to the resurrection were women. I'm a man btw!

Amen!
I think Jesus - God - coming to our world as one of us inaugurated a new way of living, too.

 

[antwaniiz]

I'm trying to understand what your point is.

You appear to be saying that women can't be prophets because, where there were women who prophesied, they were called prophetesses.
My question was; what's the difference? They still prophesied and gave God's word to men.

I am saying that women are not prophets of God.

Are you disputing it?

A. Yes
B. No

 

[Hmm]

Well I'm a lay preacher only; not ordained.
I don't know how much longer I'll do that for either.

Ah, sorry, I didn't read the conversation closely enough! I hope your decision on whether to continue or not as a lay preacher is made solely on your own discernment of what God is telling you. It must be tough at times though.

I don't know if you've seen it but here's a very informed as well as humourous talk by N.T. Wright addressing Christians for Biblical Equality (CBE International) on the subject of women's service in the church:

 

[Strong in Him]

I am saying that women are not prophets of God.

Are you disputing it?

A. Yes
B. No

They are female prophets - and the important thing is, they are of God.

 

[antwaniiz]

They are female prophets - and the important thing is, they are of God.

I say they are female prophetess.
God judge between you and I.
Now it is up to Him.

 

[pescador]

I am saying that women are not prophets of God.

Are you disputing it?

A. Yes
B. No

A.

Read your Bible for God's sake.

 

[antwaniiz]

A.

Read your Bible for God's sake.

King James bible:

Women are not prophets they are prophetess.