The Works of the Law

Leaf473 · Oct 24, 2023

daq said:
What I am saying is that I believe Mosheh, the Prophets, the Meshiah, and Paul, and that is what they are all saying.

Which thing is what they are all saying? That Isaac wasn't physically circumcised? Or that he was but he wasn't supposed to be?

daq · Oct 24, 2023

HIM said:
N0 the works of the law is the doing of it for the just shall live by faith. No flesh is justified by the works of the law, because all have sinned and our found Quilty before God, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But The just live by faith, the faith in, of and through Christ. And this faith establishes the Law. So say not in your heart, bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. But say the Word, Christ is nigh thee in thy mouth and in thy heart. That is the word of faith in which we preach. For we are dead, but live. Yet not us but Christ lives in us and the life we now live in the flesh we live by the faith OF the Son of God who gave himself for us. And this faith establishes the law. For God has said He will put His Law into our hearts and in our minds write it. Amen

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the works of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

The very passage which you quote proves you cannot be correct because it pertains to the good works that are in the Torah. Meshiah in this passage is the Rhema, (as opposed to the Logos, as in John 1:1), so he is both the Rhema and the Logos. The passage from where this comes has been touched on yet again here in this thread, (as well as quite a few others).

As you quoted: Paul says that the righteousness which is of faith comes from the passage he then proceeds to quote, which is from Deuteronomy 30, and in that passage the LXX does indeed employ rhema for dabar, and Paul then says that this is the Rhema of the faith which we preach. Understand? The Rhema which Paul says he preaches is straight from the Torah, Deuteronomy 30:14. Therefore it is up to you to choose between the good and the evil, the life and the death, and again, as the Torah warns the hearer and the reader: choose life. Howbeit the natural mind of the natural man cannot please Elohim because it cannot be subject to the Torah: for the natural mind only understands fleshly, earthly, and physical things.

Deuteronomy 30:1-19 KJV
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, [Romans 10:6] that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, [Romans 10:7] that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word [LXX - rhema] is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, [Romans 10:8] that thou mayest do it.
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Therefore within the Torah are both good works of faith and "the works of the Law", depending on how one chooses to hear what they hear, (see also Luke 8:18a "Take heed how you hear"), and "the works of the Law" are the works of the Torah as understood according to the natural mind of the natural man and the Pharisee way, as Paul the former Pharisee knows all too well. So then, as for me, I'll stick with Paul's usage, meaning, and definition which he has provided in Galatians 3:1-3 when it comes to the phrase "the works of the Law", for I know surely that Paul, a former Pharisee, knows better than you.

daq · Oct 24, 2023

In addition to the above: the Gospel is preached in the Torah but those that heard it, (whose carcasses fell in the wilderness), did not believe. If therefore the Gospel is preached in the Torah then the Torah is not merely just "to show us what sin is" like so many have claimed. Not only does the Meshiah himself confirm Mosheh and the whole Torah in John 5:45-47 but in Luke 16:29-31 he has Abraham also confirming Mosheh, and therefore the whole Torah, (and also the Prophets).

Hebrews 3:15-19 KJV
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:1-2 KJV
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Clare73 · Oct 24, 2023

HIM said:
Physical and spiritual.

I'm not seein' a whole lotta' spiritual circumcision in the Torah of Ge 34:15-17, 24-25.

Clare73 · Oct 24, 2023

daq said:
I understand how it is nearly impossible for most people to face reality when their doctrine has collapsed, having been shown by the scripture to be nothing more than privately held dogmas,

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

daq said:
but the reality is that your statements here merely reveal once again that you do not believe what Paul says concerning circumcision.
The way of the Meshiah and the Torah and Paul:
Romans 2:28-29 KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Yes, and circumcision of the heart does not happen automatically with physical circumcision, as evidenced by the track record of God's OT people.
Physical circumcision (condition for being admitted to the assembly of God's people) does not guarantee the spiritual circumcision of the heart required by God for his spiritual blessings.

daq said:
Philippians 3:1-7 KJV
1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

You and the Pharisee way:

"The law of Moses prescribing physical circumcision (Lev 12:3) is "of the Holy Spirit (spiritual)."

Agreed. . .the Torah is spiritual (of the Holy Spirit).

daq said:
Cut off, mortify, put to death your members concerning the earth, (of below), as Paul admonishes the reader to do and even explains what that means, and perhaps then you will see things the way Mosheh and Meshiah and Paul have expounded them in the scripture by the Holy Spirit.

Agreed. . .we are to put to death whatever belongs to our earthly (sinful) nature.

Cutting off the flesh in physical circumcision is supposed to represent one's dying to the flesh of spiritual circumcision (Col 2:11-12).

We are to die to sin as Christ died for sin (Ro 6:1-4).

daq · Oct 24, 2023

Clare73 said:
Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

Said the kettle to the furnace of earth while seven roosters were crowing.

Clare73 said:
Cutting off the flesh in physical circumcision is supposed to represent one's dying to the flesh of spiritual circumcision (Col 2:11-12).

I thought similarly for a long time, until I realized that Mosheh really only sets one thing before the hearer and the reader: the Torah, the instructions, teachings, righteous judgments, and commandments of the Father. If therefore we are faced with a choice between good and evil, and blessing and cursing, and life and death, then that choice is only due to how we hear and understand those same instructions, teachings, righteous judgments, and commandments of the Father. This therefore gets right back to what was said at the beginning: it is about interpretation, and the natural minded Pharisee way is the wrong interpretation because it is according to the flesh, and this is revealed throughout the Gospel accounts especially beginning with Matthew 5.

In Colossians 2:13, immediately following your reference, Paul says, "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh". So it should be obvious that Paul is not teaching both and neither is he saying that the Torah teaches both. It's one or the other, the flesh -vs- the Spirit, just as Paul so often teaches in many other ways and instances regarding other subjects and topics.

Clare73 said:
We are to die to sin as Christ died for sin (Ro 6:1-4).

And that is a good work taught in the Torah, and the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts, as well as in the writings of Paul. For example, (as touched on earlier), the following:

Exodus 32:25-29 KJV
25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; ( for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies: )
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

And the blessing:

Deuteronomy 33:8-11 KJV
8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.
11 Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.

HIM · Oct 25, 2023

daq said:
The very passage which you quote proves you cannot be correct because it pertains to the good works that are in the Torah. Meshiah in this passage is the Rhema, (as opposed to the Logos, as in John 1:1), so he is both the Rhema and the Logos. The passage from where this comes has been touched on yet again here in this thread, (as well as quite a few others).

As you quoted: Paul says that the righteousness which is of faith comes from the passage he then proceeds to quote, which is from Deuteronomy 30, and in that passage the LXX does indeed employ rhema for dabar, and Paul then says that this is the Rhema of the faith which we preach. Understand? The Rhema which Paul says he preaches is straight from the Torah, Deuteronomy 30:14. Therefore it is up to you to choose between the good and the evil, the life and the death, and again, as the Torah warns the hearer and the reader: choose life. Howbeit the natural mind of the natural man cannot please Elohim because it cannot be subject to the Torah: for the natural mind only understands fleshly, earthly, and physical things.

If the Law is used lawfully it is for the sinner, for through the law is the knowledge of sin. Faith does not make void the Law it establishes it. Therefore we don't need to be told by parchment and tables of stone what to do to be righteous because that which was on the outside is now on the in through faith through Christ. So say not in our hearts bring Christ, the word, the commandments and statutes contained in the book of the law down from above or up from the deep. But say Christ, the word which the commandments and statutes in the book of the law is of is nigh unto thee; in thy mouth and thy heart and hand to do it. That is the word of faith in which we preach and what is being said to you by God through Paul through the Spirit.

The works of the Law in verse 3:20 in Romans shows us what the works of the Law is. It is the Law in it's entirety for it is what shows us what sin is according to the context of the passage and it does not justify nor make us righteous. Faith which establishes the Law does.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the works of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Deut 30

10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, [Romans 10:6] that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, [Romans 10:7] that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word [LXX - rhema] is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, AND IN THY HAND [Romans 10:8] that thou mayest do it.

daq · Oct 29, 2023

Galatians 3:2-12
2 This only would I learn from you, Received you the Spirit by way of the works of the law, or by way of the hearing of belief-faith?
3 Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now perfected by way of the flesh? [physical, outward, "works of the law"]
4 Did you suffer so many things in vain? if indeed it be in vain?
5 He therefore that supplies to you the Spirit, and works mightily among you: does he so by way of the works of the law? or by way of the hearing of belief-faith?
6 Just as how Abraham believed Elohim and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness: [Gen 15:6]
7 Know therefore that those that are by way of belief-faith, the same are sons of Abraham.
8 And foreseeing that Elohim would justify the nations by way of belief-faith, the scripture preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In you shall all the nations be blessed. [Gen 12:3, Gen 18:18]
9 So then, they that are by way of belief-faith are blessed with believing-faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are by way of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. [Deut 27:26 + Deut 29:21]
11 Moreover it is evident that no one is justified in the Torah before Elohim: for the righteous by way of belief-faith shall live. [Hab 2:4]
12 So the Torah is not by way of belief-faith but the one doing them shall live in them. [Lev 18:5]

As for "the one doing them", (Gal 3:12), them is explained in the passage quoted where the surrounding context tells us what them is, that is, the judgments, statues, and ordinances of the Most High.

Leviticus 18:1-5 KJV
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.
3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

More importantly the statement that so many love to quote, "for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them", is not just one passage-verse, rather, Paul has combined two verses, and this no doubt has meaning. He has essentially quoted Deut 27:26 but has combined it with words found later in Deut 29:21.

Deut 27:26 says nothing about what is written or the book of the Law: these words are found in Deut 29:21, a companion passage statement. The major implication here is that there is a process going on: those under the curse are those who consider their justification to be by way of their own doing of the Pharisaic, outward, physical-minded "works of the law". But they are not necessarily under the curse forever, rather, if and when their hearts are turned back to the Most High, and their hearts are then circumcised by the Most High, then they will do the true and good works of the Torah just as is taught in Deuteronomy 30, which has already been expounded herein.

No one observes the Torah without a circumcised heart, regardless of what natural-minded men claim and say, so there are different classes of people and stages of belief-faith: one group is made up of those who walk according to the Spirit, and whose hearts have been circumcised, and who understand the Torah and walk in it according to the Spirit of the Testimony of the Meshiah.

Then there are those who think they walk in the Torah according to works of the flesh, which Paul rails against, for they are the incorrect interpretations of the Torah according to the natural-minded, outward, physical, Pharisee way. Such a one who walks according to the outward physical natural way of the natural minded man is under the curse which Paul speaks about herein above: for such a one believes that the outward physical works of the flesh justify the doer of such works.

Then there are those who reject the Torah either entirely or almost entirely, (perhaps maybe even because they are afraid of it), and they cannot understand it because they too are natural minded and carnal. The same do not believe that the Torah is spiritual, and therefore they only differ from the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes in that they themselves reject the Torah, even though their beliefs about what the Torah teaches are no different from the Pharisees. These have a false knowledge of the Torah essentially taught to them by Pharisaic Judaism, and they love to have it so, not in order to walk in the Torah the Pharisee way, but for what seems to them to be a good excuse for rejecting the Torah. This group epitomizes the reality which Paul teaches concerning the natural mind of the natural man not being capable of pleasing Elohim because it cannot be subject to the Torah of Elohim. The natural mind cannot be subject to the Torah of Elohim because the Torah of Elohim is spiritual, and the natural mind, and the uncircumcised heart, cannot understand supernal and spiritual things.

HIM · Oct 29, 2023

daq said:
As for "the one doing them", (Gal 3:12), them is explained in the passage quoted where the surrounding context tells us what them is, that is, the judgments, statues, and ordinances of the Most High.

All includes commandments.

10 For as many as are by way of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them

daq · Oct 29, 2023

HIM said:
All includes commandments.

10 For as many as are by way of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them

That spoke concerning what Paul speaks in that instance, and I even quoted more of the passage which he also quoted from: he quotes a portion from Lev 18:5 in Gal 3:12, and I quoted Leviticus 18:1-5. The passage you have quoted is not Gal 3:12.

HIM · Oct 29, 2023

daq said:
daq said:

As for "the one doing them", (Gal 3:12), them is explained in the passage quoted where the surrounding context tells us what them is, that is, the judgments, statues, and ordinances of the Most High.

Click to expand...

That spoke concerning what Paul speaks in that instance, and I even quoted more of the passage which he also quoted from: he quotes a portion from Lev 18:5 in Gal 3:12, and I quoted Leviticus 18:1-5. The passage you have quoted is not Gal 3:12.

You highlighted 3:12. You spoke of context in your commentary. Gal. 3:12 is said in context to 3:10

daq · Oct 29, 2023

HIM said:
You highlighted 3:12. You spoke of context in your commentary. Gal. 3:12 is said in context to 3:10

Gal 3:10 is quoting a different passage: and no doubt, if I had added "commandments" to Lev 18:1-5 you or one of your associates would have accused me of adding to the scripture. If you insist on adding "commandments" to the text of the Leviticus passage that is your business. The fact is that it actually only contains two words which are rendered into three: mishpatai, "My judgments", and huqqotai, "My statutes", (also rendered as "my ordinances" in the KJV of Lev 18:4). The judgments of the Most High are obviously righteous, and therefore, in this instance, it is deeper and more specific than you probably imagine, for it is surely to be understood as righteous judgments.

These righteous judgments of the Father were not fully expounded until the advent of His Meshiah:

Isaiah 1:21-27 KJV
21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; [mishpat] righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:
23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.
24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:
26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, [mishpat] and her converts with righteousness [tzadaqah].

Isaiah 9:7-6 KJV
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment [mishpat] and with justice [tzadaqah - righteousness] from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah 42:1-4 KJV
1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment [mishpat] to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment [mishpat] unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment [mishpat] in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law [Torah].

"His Torah", (Isaiah 42:4), can be none other than the true and righteous judgments, understandings, and interpretations of the Torah of the Father, which are written in the Torah: for he plainly says many times over in the Gospel accounts that it is the Father who sent him. The Father did not send His Meshiah to abrogate or set aside His Torah: the Son was sent to fill up, cram to the full, and fully expound the Torah.

daq · Oct 29, 2023

daq said:
More importantly the statement that so many love to quote, "for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them", is not just one passage-verse, rather, Paul has combined two verses, and this no doubt has meaning. He has essentially quoted Deut 27:26 but has combined it with words found later in Deut 29:21.

Deut 27:26 says nothing about what is written or the book of the Law: these words are found in Deut 29:21, a companion passage statement. The major implication here is that there is a process going on: those under the curse are those who consider their justification to be by way of their own doing of the Pharisaic, outward, physical-minded "works of the law". But they are not necessarily under the curse forever, rather, if and when their hearts are turned back to the Most High, and their hearts are then circumcised by the Most High, then they will do the true and good works of the Torah just as is taught in Deuteronomy 30, which has already been expounded herein.

Now we have a more complete picture of the landscape for this ongoing process, (of which I spoke in the above comments), simply by reading, hearing, and understanding the surrounding context for the two Torah verses which Paul combines in Gal 3:10.

These are the two statements Paul has combined:

Deuteronomy 27:26 KJV
26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Deuteronomy 29:21 KJV
21 And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:

And because of what is said in the second verse, all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the Torah, it is clear enough that what is said at the beginning of the same section, Deut 29:1, pertains to the whole book of Deuteronomy. In other words Deut 29:1 is not a different covenant that begins with that statement, but is rather a synopsis of the whole book up to that point, which then continues throughout, after that statement, to the end of the book of Deuteronomy. At the point of context, in Deut 29:1, everything before that has then been written down following the sermon, which is why Deut 29:21 says written in this book of the Torah while Deut 27:26 says nothing about anything being written. And by his choice of the two verses which he has combined, Paul has pinpointed a location in the narrative where a change of perspective and change of heart is to occur in the ongoing process concerning the walk of every believer.

Deuteronomy
1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.
7 And when ye came unto this place, Sihon the king of Heshbon, and Og the king of Bashan, came out against us unto battle, and we smote them:
8 And we took their land, and gave it for an inheritance unto the Reubenites, and to the Gadites, and to the half tribe of Manasseh.
9 Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do.
10 Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:
16 ( For ye know how we have dwelt in the land of Egypt; and how we came through the nations which ye passed by;
17 And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them: )
18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:
20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
21 And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:
22 So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the LORD hath laid upon it;
23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:
24 Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger?
25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:
26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:
27 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.
29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

And then what is said in the very next breath?

Deuteronomy 30:1-8 KJV
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

This is a different kind of "doing" because the heart has been circumcised. It is not a dissolution of the Torah but a different understanding of the very same commandments given from the start. They are the same commandments of which Mosheh says, which I command you this day, (Deut 30:8). And moreover the entire book of Deuteronomy is essentially one great sermon: it is for the most part all preached in the hearing of the people in a single day, this day, (in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, Deut 1:3), which phrase, this day, is repeated over and over again going through the book.

Deuteronomy 30:4 LXX Brenton Translation
4 If thy dispersion be from one end of heaven to the other, thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and thence will the Lord thy God take thee.

Matthew 24:31 KJV
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No wonder Paul quotes and expounds from Deuteronomy 30 in Romans 10.
The natural mind chooses death, (#63), until the heart is circumcised and the old man nature is cut away.

Clare73 · Oct 29, 2023

daq said:
Said the kettle to the furnace of earth while seven roosters were crowing.

Oh, that's a keeper!

daq said:
I thought similarly for a long time, until I realized that Mosheh really only sets one thing before the hearer and the reader: the Torah, the instructions, teachings, righteous judgments, and commandments of the Father. If therefore we are faced with a choice between good and evil, and blessing and cursing, and life and death, then that choice is only due to how we hear and understand those same instructions, teachings, righteous judgments, and commandments of the Father. This therefore gets right back to what was said at the beginning: it is about interpretation, and the natural minded Pharisee way is the wrong interpretation because it is according to the flesh, and this is revealed throughout the Gospel accounts especially beginning with Matthew 5.

In Colossians 2:13, immediately following your reference, Paul says, "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh". So it should be obvious that Paul is not teaching both and neither is he saying that the Torah teaches both. It's one or the other, the flesh -vs- the Spirit, just as Paul so often teaches in many other ways and instances regarding other subjects and topics.

It's not about teaching both, it's about circumcision having two meanings, physical and spiritual.

daq · Oct 29, 2023

Clare73 said:
It's not about teaching both, it's about circumcision having two meanings, physical and spiritual.

You still have not understood my position? Everything has at least two primary meanings: that is why Mosheh says that he has set before you good and evil, blessing and cursing, life and death, and admonishes you to choose life.

Paul was pretty furious with the Galatians over physical circumcision because it blinds the believer to the true circumcision, which is of the heart: and it is the same with all things physical concerning "the works of the Law", the physical interpretations blind the believer to the spiritual understanding and make the Elohim of the Hebrews appear to be a hypocrite.

Galatians 6:17a
17a του λοιπου κοπους μοι μηδεις παρεχετω
17a Henceforth let no one present cuttings to me:

Kopos is literally a cut, and this is in a plural form, cuttings. You may or may not agree with my rendering but the meaning is surely implied even if the majority rendering is preferred, (typically, trouble me, as you no doubt already know). He is contrasting the cuttings or clippings of those boasting in physical circumcision against his own physical-bodily scars which he himself has received in defense of the Gospel of Meshiah, (many accounts of which are exhibited for us in the book of Acts).

Clare73 · Oct 29, 2023

daq said:
You still have not understood my position? Everything has at least two primary meanings: that is why Mosheh says that he has set before you good and evil, blessing and cursing, life and death, and admonishes you to choose life.

Paul was pretty furious with the Galatians over physical circumcision because it blinds the believer to the true circumcision, which is of the heart

What a gloss.

Paul was furious (Gal 1:6-9) because they were adding the work of circumcision to grace (Gal 6:12-13) as necessary for salvation (Gal 2:16, 3:1-5, 10-11).

daq · Oct 29, 2023

Clare73 said:
What a gloss.

Paul was furious (Gal 1:6-9) because they were adding the work of circumcision to grace (Gal 6:12-13) as necessary for salvation (Gal 2:16, 3:1-5, 10-11).

If it was such a gloss then why did you essentially repeat what has already been said so many times in so many ways? The difference is that I have said it from the scripture so it is not actually me who says it, (if one understands and believes the Logos-Reasoning from the scripture).

You just spoke of physical circumcision, and indeed, that is a physical and outward misinterpretation of the carnal minded man, one of the wrong interpretations which Paul calls "the works of the Law". If I know this, and I have already been continually saying that physical circumcision is the wrong understanding, then why should you need me to tell you that physical circumcision cannot possibly be a requirement for salvation after all that I have already posted and said about it? I am beginning to think that you do not really pay much attention to the posts of those who disagree with your theology and perhaps are only using my responses as launching platforms for the next thing you wish to post.

Moreover why do you walk according to the flesh in your interpretation of the Torah, and side with the Pharisees, justifying their version of "the works of the Law" in your own doctrine when it comes to your beliefs about what the Torah teaches concerning circumcision? If indeed you believed Paul you would not do so, knowing that the Torah is spiritual: surely therefore it is only so as to assure yourself that your paradigm and position against the Torah is justified, and in that you justify yourself and your own privately held opinions. Show me where Paul says that circumcision of the heart is not required to be saved.

You quoted this passage to me earlier:

1 Corinthians 5:6-8 KJV
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Do you neither know the Torah in this?

Exodus 12:43-49 KJV
43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.
46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

You cannot eat of the Passover as Paul admonishes you to do unless you are circumcised. That can only mean one thing: sorry for your luck, you neither have the correct interpretation nor the correct physical anatomy to comply with your own interpretation.

HIM · Oct 31, 2023

daq said:
Gal 3:10 is quoting a different passage:

And Galatians 3:10 sets the context. Which is that when Paul speaks of the works of the law, he speaks of all that is contained in the Book of the Law. Which includes commandments. That which tell us what sin is.

daq · Oct 31, 2023

HIM said:
And Galatians 3:10 sets the context. Which is that when Paul speaks of the works of the law, he speaks of all that is contained in the Book of the Law. Which includes commandments. That which tell us what sin is.

I guess you and I do not study the scripture the same way. I already explained why I made those remarks even after it should have been clear enough in the original post. But apparently you do not study word by word and statement by statement within a given context and prefer to just take an entire passage and assign a single overall reason and teaching to it. That's your business if you wish to study that way but there is no reason to make up falsehoods and strawmen so as to force yourself and your way on others. Anyone without a grudge should be able to look at what I posted and at least understand what I meant after now having explained it to you multiple times.

The following is again what I said about Gal 3:12 and why I quoted the passage which Paul quotes from. I simply added an explanatory note because "them" is not very clear in the statement which Paul quotes unless you go back to the source text and context. I didn't mention commandments because the word typically rendered as commandments is not found in the source text which was clearly quoted so that the reader would know what I was talking about: take it up with the Creator, and please stop blaming me for your misunderstandings.

QUOTE:]
As for "the one doing them", (Gal 3:12), them is explained in the passage quoted where the surrounding context tells us what them is, that is, the judgments, statues, and ordinances of the Most High.

Leviticus 18:1-5 KJV
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.
3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
[END QUOTE.

Why are you trying so hard to disrupt this thread?
Vengeance is Mine, says the LORD.

Moreover, whenever Paul quotes scripture, and especially when he is quoting multiple statements and passages in succession, he is building a case and it is extremely methodical. Those who ignore his methodology invariably go astray because he is presenting the actual Logos-reasoning from within the written scripture that is to be found within the text. Those therefore who ignore his methodology and logos-reasoning almost invariably end up inserting their own logos-reasoning into his words because they have not done due diligence in back-checking all of the scripture quotes and resources he has supplied for what he teaches.

1 Corinthians 3:8-13 KJV
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Moreover those who assume to build upon the teachings of Paul, and yet ignore his methodology and logos-reasoning from the written Word, are breaking a critical commandment when it comes to Biblical hermeneutics:

Genesis 17:1-2 KJV
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

Deuteronomy 18:13-19 KJV
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. [Acts 3:22-23]

Deuteronomy 32:1-4 KJV
1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Luke 6:39-40 KJV
39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Clearly the final quote above is about discipleship and teaching, ("Can the blind lead the blind?").
And the Logos-Reasoning of Elohim within the written scripture begins at Genesis 1:1.

John 1:1a
1 In the beginning was the Logos

HIM · Nov 2, 2023

daq said:
The following is again what I said about Gal 3:12 and why I quoted the passage which Paul quotes from. I simply added an explanatory note because "them" is not very clear in the statement which Paul quotes unless you go back to the source text and context. I didn't mention commandments because the word typically rendered as commandments is not found in the source text which was clearly quoted so that the reader would know what I was talking about
QUOTE:]
As for "the one doing them", (Gal 3:12), them is explained in the passage quoted where the surrounding context tells us what them is, that is, the judgments, statues, and ordinances of the Most High.

The context of the "them" for Galatians 3:12 is set in 3:10. If we are of the works of the Law we are under the curse of the Law because it is written, curse is every that continueth not in ALL things written in the Book of the Law. So No man is justified by the law, the works of the Law, because they have not continued in the All that is contained in the Book of the Law. However the man that doeth them, the all contained in the Book of the Law. That man shall live by them. But all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God because they have not continued in the all things contained therein. We are justified by the Faith that is in and of Christ Jesus. For if righteousness came by the Law, Christ died in vain. (Gal. 2:21) But Faith Establishes the Law, the works of the Law thereby is the knowledge of sin. The Law is not of faith, but faith establishes the Law, the Law that gives us the knowledge of sin. As Romans chapter 3 states indicatively. But because we have not continued in the all things contained in the Book of the Law we are under the curse. But Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the Law, the Book of the Law having become cursed for us. For it is written cursed that hangeth on a tree. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through the faith that is in and of Christ Jesus. For He that has been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. So how can we who are now dead unto sin live any longer therein. For we are dead but live. Yet not us but Christ LIVES in us and the life we now live in the flesh we live by the Faith OF the Son of God who gave himself for us. If righteousness was by the Law then Christ died in vain. We who have begun in the Spirit are not made perfect by the flesh. but by the hearing of the faith that is of Christ Jesus through the Spirit.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Deut 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
Deut 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Deut 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deut 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God, that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

The Works of the Law

Well-Known Member

Messianic

Messianic

Blood-bought

Blood-bought

Messianic

Friend

Messianic

Friend

Messianic

Friend

Messianic

Messianic

Blood-bought

Messianic

Blood-bought

Messianic

Friend

Messianic

Friend

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency