Discussion The WONDERFUL gift and mystery of Tongues ... a spiritual language

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I won't allow nationality to decide on spiritual matters.



That may be your presumption!

Hey, play the ball and not the player!

Sounds as though you have well and truly talked yourself out of receiving the ability to pray in tongues, so, according to your faith be it unto you.

 

[Alithis]

Spiritual gifts are for common good. It will be useless because anti-Christ people may do much greater works! The greatest two commandments don't advocate self-centered affinity.




How much percentage in the entire Bible of 1 Corinthians chapters 12 to 14?

yes spiritual gifts are for good of the body .. all of them .they are of and from the Holy Spirit .when your disparaging the gifts your risking disparaging the giver .

we have clarified some points ..
you have not YET been baptized in the holy Ghost as promised by the lord Jesus (that is to say you have not yet testified of being so)
you do not speak in tongues by the utterance of the Holy Spirit .therefore do not have anything to offer but a carnal minded opinion which has no true comprehension .as the scriptures says clearly that the carnal mind cannot comprehend these things. we must ask and receive in Faith .

the thread is about this wonderful gift but your trying to make it about imposing your own rules ..
did you know i can stand in church next to you and be speaking praying and singing in tongues and you would never know it ?
paul is speaking about the loud declaration of tongues which ,at times , some are moved by the Holy Spirit to do ..but the same holy Spirit is in all those who have received him ,so there is not need for many to do so in a single meeting .

the more you post here the more it seems you wish the gift to be silenced fully ... but thats not the Lord will .

 

[Biblicist]

If so, Paul would have never recommended to prefer better gifts.

As the better translation of 1Cor 12:31 moves from the indicative "But eagerly desire the better gifts" to the imperative "But you are eagerly desiring the better gifts", as per the footnote to the NIV; then Paul is not saying that anyone should be preferring the "better gifts" but that the Corinthians are in fact already doing this.

So Paul is telling them that he is pleased with their desire for the Operations of the Holy Spirit where he then goes on to say that the "most excellent way" for them to be displayed is through love.

 

[Biblicist]

Spiritual gifts are for common good.

That's sort of correct as the Greek word for our English 'common' refers to both the individual and to others. So we could say that the Operations of the Spirit are given to us for our benefit and for the benefit of others.

Gingrich Lexicon:

6061 συμφέρω
συμφέρω—1. bring together Ac 19:19.—2. help, confer a benefit, be advantageous or profitable or useful—a. impersonal construction συμφέρει (it) is good, etc. Mt 5:29; 19:10; J 11:50; 18:14; 1 Cor 6:12; 2 Cor 8:10.—b. the participle συμφέρων profitable, etc. τὰ συμφέροντα what is good for you Ac 20:20; cf. 2 Cor 12:1. τὸ συμφέρον profit, advantage 1 Cor 10:33 v.l.; 12:7; Hb 12:10. [pg 189]​

Friberg Lexicon:

25380 συμφέρω 1aor. συνήνεγκα; (1) transitively bring together, gather, collect (AC 19.19); (2) intransitively; (a) be of use, be profitable or advantageous (1C 6.12); (b) impersonally, with the dative followed by a ἵνα clause or an infinitive it is better, advantageous (MT 5.29; 19.10); neuter participle as a substantive τὸ σύμφερον profit, advantage (HE 12.10); πρὸς τὸ σύμφερον for the common good (1C 12.7)​

It will be useless because anti-Christ people may do much greater works!

I guess that only you know your own congregational circles where maybe any supranatural activity would be deemed pretty impressive and out of the ordinary.

For those of us who are Born of the Spirit where he knows us and we know him, then the chances of the Devil ever being able to display such love and compassion where he is able to some how impersonate the Operations of the Holy Spirit are not something worth considering.

The greatest two commandments don't advocate self-centered affinity.

So praying in the Spirit is not advocated in the Scriptures - that's innovative!

How much percentage in the entire Bible of 1 Corinthians chapters 12 to 14?

So you're trying to suggest that the three indepth chapters that speak of the Operations of the Spirit and with the associated Congregational Offices are insignificant; I suppose if Paul 'only' dedicated one book to the subject then you would say that this is also insignificant.

Let's see: As the OT is much larger than the NT then the New Covenant must therefore be inferior to the the Old Covenant.

 

[Biblicist]

I am serious. That is what Jude said.

Jude:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

Jude never advocated the practice of speaking in unknown tongue!

Then why would you quote Jude 20 which says "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit"? This is Pauls language for praying with the mind cognitively and praying through the Holy Spirit uncognitively.

 

[Righttruth]

yes spiritual gifts are for good of the body .. all of them .they are of and from the Holy Spirit .when your disparaging the gifts your risking disparaging the giver .

No. I am only reiterating what Paul advised.

we have clarified some points ..
you have not YET been baptized in the holy Ghost as promised by the lord Jesus (that is to say you have not yet testified of being so)

The Holy Ghost baptism will lead to producing the fruit, not the gifts. The Holy Ghost is not a pot bellied Santa Clause to pass on gifts. Children seek gifts so also was the case of babes in Corinth!

you do not speak in tongues by the utterance of the Holy Spirit .therefore do not have anything to offer but a carnal minded opinion which has no true comprehension .as the scriptures says clearly that the carnal mind cannot comprehend these things. we must ask and receive in Faith

Unknown tongue is not prompted by the Holy Spirit. You are equating unreasonably what happened on Pentecost to notorious Corinthian conditions!

the thread is about this wonderful gift but your trying to make it about imposing your own rules ..

No, I am spiritually grown; therefore, I don't go after gifts. But I do have been gifted others.

did you know i can stand in church next to you and be speaking praying and singing in tongues and you would never know it ?

I have no objection for that.

paul is speaking about the loud declaration of tongues which ,at times , some are moved by the Holy Spirit to do ..but the same holy Spirit is in all those who have received him ,so there is not need for many to do so in a single meeting .

the more you post here the more it seems you wish the gift to be silenced fully ... but thats not the Lord will .

A mature spiritual man don't glorify the gifts, rather he cultivates the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Righttruth]

As the better translation of 1Cor 12:31 moves from the indicative "But eagerly desire the better gifts" to the imperative "But you are eagerly desiring the better gifts", as per the footnote to the NIV; then Paul is not saying that anyone should be preferring the "better gifts" but that the Corinthians are in fact already doing this.

So Paul is telling them that he is pleased with their desire for the Operations of the Holy Spirit where he then goes on to say that the "most excellent way" for them to be displayed is through love.

I am for the better gifts, and above all the most excellent way!

 

[Righttruth]

That's sort of correct as the Greek word for our English 'common' refers to both the individual and to others. So we could say that the Operations of the Spirit are given to us for our benefit and for the benefit of others.

Gingrich Lexicon:

6061 συμφέρω
συμφέρω—1. bring together Ac 19:19.—2. help, confer a benefit, be advantageous or profitable or useful—a. impersonal construction συμφέρει (it) is good, etc. Mt 5:29; 19:10; J 11:50; 18:14; 1 Cor 6:12; 2 Cor 8:10.—b. the participle συμφέρων profitable, etc. τὰ συμφέροντα what is good for you Ac 20:20; cf. 2 Cor 12:1. τὸ συμφέρον profit, advantage 1 Cor 10:33 v.l.; 12:7; Hb 12:10. [pg 189]​

Friberg Lexicon:

25380 συμφέρω 1aor. συνήνεγκα; (1) transitively bring together, gather, collect (AC 19.19); (2) intransitively; (a) be of use, be profitable or advantageous (1C 6.12); (b) impersonally, with the dative followed by a ἵνα clause or an infinitive it is better, advantageous (MT 5.29; 19.10); neuter participle as a substantive τὸ σύμφερον profit, advantage (HE 12.10); πρὸς τὸ σύμφερον for the common good (1C 12.7)​

The word 'common' is an adjective for a plural understanding. It cannot be analysed in isolation as one entity!​

I guess that only you know your own congregational circles where maybe any supranatural activity would be deemed pretty impressive and out of the ordinary.

For those of us who are Born of the Spirit where he knows us and we know him, then the chances of the Devil ever being able to display such love and compassion where he is able to some how impersonate the Operations of the Holy Spirit are not something worth considering.

Satan can do practically anything. He even appeared as a serpent! His camouflage is hard to discern.

So praying in the Spirit is not advocated in the Scriptures - that's innovative!

Neither Paul nor Jude said that praying in Spirit involves speaking in unknown tongue.

So you're trying to suggest that the three indepth chapters that speak of the Operations of the Spirit and with the associated Congregational Offices are insignificant; I suppose if Paul 'only' dedicated one book to the subject then you would say that this is also insignificant.

Appendix cannot be treated as the main intestine. If done, one may get appendicitis!

Let's see: As the OT is much larger than the NT then the New Covenant must therefore be inferior to the the Old Covenant.

The foundation has to be massive and strong to support the superstructure. Mere foundation is incomplete, so also the OT. Are you not aware of the fact that many nominal Christians degrade the OT by wrongly interpreting Paul's writings?

 

[Righttruth]

Then why would you quote Jude 20 which says "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit"? This is Pauls language for praying with the mind cognitively and praying through the Holy Spirit uncognitively.

Paul and Jude were unconnected. Jude cannot be interpreted using misinterpreted Paul's perspective! Unknown tongue by the spirit, not the Holy Spirit.

 

[Biblicist]

The Holy Ghost baptism will lead to producing the fruit, not the gifts.

So, you’re attempting to say that when we receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of our conversion, that for some odd reason (which totally alludes me) that we are not to expect the Holy Spirit to outwork through the Believer. So I guess that you are saying that Paul and the early church were sourcing these Spiritual Operations from someone or something other than Holy Spirit?

This is such an odd position that I had to re-read my reply a few times as your position is so preposterous that I was not sure that I could actually reply to it any in a succinct manner.

Unknown tongue is not prompted by the Holy Spirit. You are equating unreasonably what happened on Pentecost to notorious Corinthian conditions!

Okay, so when Paul said (14:5) “Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues” and (14:2) “…for no one understands, but in S/spirit he speak mysteries”; does this mean that you see Paul as being the instigator of what you consider to be notoriety?

Now I appreciate that you are coming from within a hard-core cessationist mindset, which is undoubtedly even considered by most cessationists to be reflecting more of their fringe and often unchurched element; so with reference to my earlier query, do you actually own a Bible?

No, I am spiritually grown; therefore, I don't go after gifts. But I do have been gifted others.

So to use your own words, this obviously means that you are “a babe in Christ” as well.

 

[Biblicist]

Paul and Jude were unconnected. Jude cannot be interpreted using misinterpreted Paul's perspective! Unknown tongue by the spirit, not the Holy Spirit.

Wonderful . . . hallelujah, so you at are at least recognising that Paul is connecting praying in the Spirit with speaking in tongues! Now that's a welcome turn-around, though undoubtedly you will try and fix your 'mistake' in a subsequent post.

As you see no connection with Paul and Jude in that their theologies can be seen to be in opposition, then .... oh dear, why bother.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I guess that only you know your own congregational circles where maybe any supranatural activity would be deemed pretty impressive and out of the ordinary.

For those of us who are Born of the Spirit where he knows us and we know him, then the chances of the Devil ever being able to display such love and compassion where he is able to some how impersonate the Operations of the Holy Spirit are not something worth considering.

"Only you know your congregation [but] for us who are Born of the Spirit where he knows us and we know him..."

Oh, really? Are you implying that your church is the true one where folks are genuinely born again while churches where others like us ANZAC Pentecostals attend are not genuinely converted because we believe in the operation of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit?

Also, are you implying that Pentecostal worship involves the devil impersonating the operations of the Holy Spirit while your style of worship does not?

I have a vision! I can see a group of P/Cs coming after you with the tar and feathers!!!!

You might need to persuade us on the P/C forum that this is not what you mean to ensure that my vision does come true!!

 

[Biblicist]

"Only you know your congregation [but] for us who are Born of the Spirit where he knows us and we know him..."

Oh, really? Are you implying that your church is the true one where folks are genuinely born again while churches where others like us ANZAC Pentecostals attend are not genuinely converted because we believe in the operation of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit?

Umm...it seems that you have misunderstood my post entirely. My post was a satirical reply to a comment that suggests that the Full Gospel movement has been nullified because the OP thought that satan can do far more than we can – where I rather tongue-in-check made an illusion to how maybe this is what he might be seeing in his own circles but where we certainly do not.

If others have mistook my post then I would love to know so I can go back and make some corrections; at this stage I’m not that sure what I could change.

Also, are you implying that Pentecostal worship involves the devil impersonating the operations of the Holy Spirit while your style of worship does not?

I have a vision! I can see a group of P/Cs coming after you with the tar and feathers!!!!

You might need to persuade us on the P/C forum that this is not what you mean to ensure that my vision does come true!!

As my Pentecostal credentials are beyond question then I’m a bit surprised by your remark. I would have thought that a gentler query would have been far more appropriate – did you maybe reply to the wrong person?

If you wish, if you want to delete your post then I will quickly follow.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Umm...it seems that you have misunderstood my post entirely. My post was a satirical reply to a comment that suggests that the Full Gospel movement has been nullified because the OP thought that satan can do far more than we can – where I rather tongue-in-check made an illusion to how maybe this is what he might be seeing in his own circles but where we certainly do not.

If others have mistook my post then I would love to know so I can go back and make some corrections; at this stage I’m not that sure what I could change.


As my Pentecostal credentials are beyond question then I’m a bit surprised by your remark. I would have thought that a gentler query would have been far more appropriate – did you maybe reply to the wrong person?

If you wish, if you want to delete your post then I will quickly follow.

I'm sorry! Senior moment! I thought it was the other guy! It was the type of comment that he would make so I automatically assumed it was him without looking carefully to see that it was your post. It would have been tragic if we tarred and feathered the poor guy when he was innocent!

 

[Biblicist]

I'm sorry! Senior moment! I thought it was the other guy! It was the type of comment that he would make so I automatically assumed it was him without looking carefully to see that it was your post. It would have been tragic if we tarred and feathered the poor guy when he was innocent!

Yes, I've been there and done that on a number of occassions where I've been able to delete the post before the dreaded "Edited 1 min" ago has appeared.

But as for the "It was the type of comment that he would make..."; err...ummm...what!

 

[Alithis]

No. I am only reiterating what Paul advised.



The Holy Ghost baptism will lead to producing the fruit, not the gifts. The Holy Ghost is not a pot bellied Santa Clause to pass on gifts. Children seek gifts so also was the case of babes in Corinth!



Unknown tongue is not prompted by the Holy Spirit. You are equating unreasonably what happened on Pentecost to notorious Corinthian conditions!



No, I am spiritually grown; therefore, I don't go after gifts. But I do have been gifted others.



I have no objection for that.



A mature spiritual man don't glorify the gifts, rather he cultivates the fruit of the Spirit.

yes spiritual gifts are for good of the body .. all of them .they are of and from the Holy Spirit .when your disparaging the gifts your risking disparaging the giver .

we have clarified some points ..
you have not YET been baptized in the holy Ghost as promised by the lord Jesus (that is to say you have not yet testified of being so)
you do not speak in tongues by the utterance of the Holy Spirit .therefore do not have anything to offer but a carnal minded opinion which has no true comprehension .as the scriptures says clearly that the carnal mind cannot comprehend these things. we must ask and receive in Faith .

the thread is about this wonderful gift but your trying to make it about imposing your own rules ..
did you know i can stand in church next to you and be speaking praying and singing in tongues and you would never know it ?
paul is speaking about the loud declaration of tongues which ,at times , some are moved by the Holy Spirit to do ..but the same holy Spirit is in all those who have received him ,so there is not need for many to do so in a single meeting .
the more you post here the more it seems you wish the gift to be silenced fully ... but that's not the Lords will . -its your will

yes im repeating myself ..

 

[Alithis]

The WONDERFUL gift and mystery of Tongues ... a spiritual language...

This gift i find to be astounding and exciting and wonderful and far to little importance is placed upon it these days .
im not sure why ..

-- i find there are many who claim to be baptized in the Holy Spirit yet don't seem to either have received this gifting OR dont seem to have any interest in receiving Or the saddest of all don't believe in it ....(thats verbal topic hook haha)

of course one cannot say they are baptized in the Holy Spirit and then not believe in the gift of tongues .. but that's a side topic .

The gift of tongues , that heavenly language ,that spiritual forming of communication between the Lord JEsus and our own spirit by the enablement of the Holy Spirit causing us by his power to pray in us through us AND FOR us . not only in sounds recognised to be what we would call language but also in utterances and groaning which are beyond the utterance of mankind .

this wonderful gift which enables us to pray the perfect will of God unhindered by carnal reasoning and limited understandings ...
this wonderful gift that allows us to pour our hearts out to the lord when we so do not even know what needs to be poured out

This wonderful manifestation of unity between man and God where spirit is entwined with spirit and each part of the bride "communes" with the bridegroom in perfect unison and agreement in the culture of heaven itself.removed from all the fickle reasonings of mankind .

 

[Alithis]

requested thread close now

 

[Righttruth]

So, you’re attempting to say that when we receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of our conversion, that for some odd reason (which totally alludes me) that we are not to expect the Holy Spirit to outwork through the Believer. So I guess that you are saying that Paul and the early church were sourcing these Spiritual Operations from someone or something other than Holy Spirit?

This is such an odd position that I had to re-read my reply a few times as your position is so preposterous that I was not sure that I could actually reply to it any in a succinct manner.


Okay, so when Paul said (14:5) “Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues” and (14:2) “…for no one understands, but in S/spirit he speak mysteries”; does this mean that you see Paul as being the instigator of what you consider to be notoriety?

The major error in your fundamental thinking is based on converting 's' to 'S'! No point is served in further discussions since manipulated text will not lead you to truth. Sorry!

 

[Righttruth]

requested thread close now

Yes, better. Since there is no need to exalt the gifts when we are asked to work out our salvation with fear and trembling! No fruit of the Spirit, no salvation.