The Witness of the Apostles Refutes Calvinism, Predestinationism

[drstevej]

TULIP is such an important part of Calvinism, but never told to an unbeliever.

Simply untrue.

 

[Damian Newman]

What's the TULIP?

 

[Keachian]

What's the TULIP?

An acronym to express Calvinist soteriological distinctives I think it was formulated somewhat in response to the Remonstrances

T - Total Depravity, man without God is an evil creature, in opposition to God, however God in his mercy and grace still restrains the evil of man.

U - Unconditional Election, God has chosen for himself people from every tribe, tongue and nation to be glorified in and by them and to judge the rest of the world.

L - Limited Atonement, Christ's atoning work being only effectual on the elect is only for the elect, there is argument within Calvinism as to whether it could be sufficient to save all, I would side with yes.

I - Irresistable Grace, or Effectual Calling, God in his calling of his people to him will not fail, in his own time, in his own way he will bind to himself and bring to repentance those who he has chosen and will transform them, this means for the Calvinist evangelist the one that is the means by which God calls men to repentance, he knows that his efforts are effective, he needs merely to trust in God.

P - Perseverence of the Saints, while there may be others who as in the parable of the seeds come to the faith for a time, we know that God's elect will continue in their faith and trust of God.

 

[Damian Newman]

An acronym to express Calvinist soteriological distinctives I think it was formulated somewhat in response to the Remonstrances

T - Total Depravity, man without God is an evil creature, in opposition to God, however God in his mercy and grace still restrains the evil of man.

U - Unconditional Election, God has chosen for himself people from every tribe, tongue and nation to be glorified in and by them and to judge the rest of the world.

L - Limited Atonement, Christ's atoning work being only effectual on the elect is only for the elect, there is argument within Calvinism as to whether it could be sufficient to save all, I would side with yes.

I - Irresistable Grace, or Effectual Calling, God in his calling of his people to him will not fail, in his own time, in his own way he will bind to himself and bring to repentance those who he has chosen and will transform them, this means for the Calvinist evangelist the one that is the means by which God calls men to repentance, he knows that his efforts are effective, he needs merely to trust in God.

P - Perseverence of the Saints, while there may be others who as in the parable of the seeds come to the faith for a time, we know that God's elect will continue in their faith and trust of God.

Thanks.

Well, I'm starting to understand why Calvinism is such a controversial issue. I am really torn on it.

 

[Arcoe]

Simply untrue.

When you present the Gospel to an unbeliever, do you tell him that he may have been chosen by God to salvation, or he may be condemned to hell by the lack of God choosing him, and he has no freedom of choice in the matter?

 

[Keachian]

When you present the Gospel to an unbeliever, do you tell him that he may have been chosen by God to salvation, or he may be condemned to hell by the lack of God choosing him?

What I see as untrue is your statement that TULIP is central to Calvinist though, it's not, the sovereignty of God in all things is what I see as central, TULIP is a result of that but the sovereignty of God is central.

 

[drstevej]

When you present the Gospel to an unbeliever, do you tell him that he may have been chosen by God to salvation, or he may be condemned to hell by the lack of God choosing him, and he has no freedom of choice in the matter?

I can not answer this fully when you misrepresent my views. I would neither hide the doctrine of election nor feel obligated to discuss it. Depends on the flow of the conversation.

Arcoe, no one is condemned by the lack of election. If you, a believer, can not understand this or state it correctly... why should I expect an unbeliever to understand?

 

[John 1720]

Star Trek: "A Matter of Time" The ninth episode of the fifth season.

Okay, I realize that is a mouthful and I get that maybe you consider me a space cadet, maybe I even deserve that. It was funny even I will admit that. I also really did like the show
However, the principles I was expounding on are really not my own but rather they came to me a while back in the study of very early churchmen and then later from what Thomas Aquinas (the dumb ox) had to say. I believe Irenaeus was the first to state that time was born with the creation of the physical universe. I do not know if he received it from a predecessor or not but it was definitely not from Spock. Two hundred years later the more well known Augustine also echoed this. So it is Augustine that Physiscist Paul Davies credits a somewhat prophetic understanding of what Einstein's relativity theorems later came to state - that time and the physical universe are inseperable you can't have one without the other, each are mutually mutable by the other. There actually is demonstrable experimentation that has been proven that shows time to be both mutable and variable so it is not just theoretical.
Aquinas expanded greatly on the nature of God, eternity and time. Lest you think that Aquinas is also a space cadet keep in mind that a devout Calvinist such as RC Sproule is quite respectful of his logic, although I do not know RC's opinion on this aspect of Aquinas' Summa Theologica.

So this all really comes down to whether you believe eternity is mutable or not. Aquinas of course did not set out to discover postulates by any scientific methods but like Irenaeus and Augustine they applied what they knew from the Bible. Another case of the Bible proving it is true, at least to me.
While I think we can all agree that time itself is mutable (subject to change) I just wasn't sure what the thoughts were on the eternal and so when I saw "eternity past" it made me think back to these former Christians. But maybe it is better to let Aquinas' thoughts on the eternal say it. Surely he much better at communicating this stuff than I am. See what you think.

ISBN 0-8010-2151-0 on the Suma theologica]

1. Total immutability necessarily implies eternity (Summa Theologica, 1a.10.2).
2. For whatever changes substantially is in time and can be computed according to before and after. Whatever does not change cannot be in time, since it has no different states by which before and after can be computed. It never changes. Whatever does not change is not temporal.
3. Not only is God eternal, but He alone is eternal (Summa Theologica, 1a.10.3), for He alone is essentially immutable.
4. Aquinas distinguishes eternity from endless time (Summa Theologica, 1a.10.4).
5. First, whatever is essentially whole (eternity) is essentially different from what has parts (time). Eternity is now forever; time includes past, present, and future, now and then. The implication of this is that God's eternity is not divided; it is all present to Him in His eternal now. So it must be essentially different from time in successive moments.
6. Second, endless time is more than just an elongation of time. Eternity differs qualitatively. It differs essentially, not merely accidentally. Eternity is an essential, changeless state of being. Time measures that reality, or rather the stage on which reality plays out.
7. Third, an eternal being cannot change, whereas time involves change. By change we can measure the before and after. Whatever can be computed according to before and after is not eternal. Endless time can be computed according to before and after. Hence, endless time is not the same as eternity. The eternal is changeless, but what can be computed by its before and after has changed. It follows, then, that the eternal now cannot live in relation to endless befores and afters. God's now has no past or future; time's now does. [/quote]

There is then no changing with the Lord. He is immutable and unchanging, which are also eternal principles. Therefore "eternity past' is a conflict in terms.

Some Biblical verse that show that God is unchanging (immutable) and His eternal Being is beyond time itself[/B]]
No end to God
They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. But You [are] the same, And Your years will have no end. -Psalms 102:26-27
The eternalness of Christ before time and the alpha and omega of trancendent time
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. -John 1:1
Jesus Christ [is] the same yesterday, today, and forever. Hebrews 13:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, [the] Beginning and [the] End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." -Revelation 1:8
God's immutability (unchangingness/ constant not variable)
Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath - Hebrews 6:17
"For I [am] the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. - Malachi 3:6
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. - James 1:17

Anyway have a wonderful night y'all and a great day of worship tomorrow.
May the Lord set our course to do His Will, In Christ John 1720

 

[Arcoe]

I can not answer this fully when you misrepresent my views. I would neither hide the doctrine of election nor feel obligated to discuss it. Depends on the flow of the conversation.

Arcoe, no one is condemned by the lack of election. If you, a believer, can not understand this or state it correctly... why should I expect an unbeliever to understand?

I know what you mean, but if God didn't elect them, and left them to themselves, they are condemned. It is only by God's election from the foundation of the world, they have a chance of salvation. Would you agree with this? Or does God elect within time?

 

[gmm4j]

What's the TULIP?

Total Depravity/Inability: Because of the Fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free; it is in bondage to his evil nature. Therefore he will not—indeed cannot—choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ. It takes regeneration, by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation, but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation. It is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.

Unconditional Election: God’s choice of certain individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause, of God’s choice. Election, therefore, was not determined by, or conditioned upon, any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus, God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

Limited Atonement: Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith, which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

Irresistible Grace: In addition to the outward general call to salvation, which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected. However, the inward call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call, the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

Perseverance of the Saints: All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit, are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of almighty God, and thus persevere to the end.

 

[drstevej]

God does not elect within time and it is impossible for one to know they are elect unless they come to faith. The word "chance" is interesting but inaccurate. Election is the opposite of chance. The focus of the gospel presentation is forgiveness of sin and faith in Jesus. One can clearly present the gospel without a detailed discussion of election.

I am always willing to discuss election but I have no idea whether a non believer is elect or not and do not try to figure it out. God chooses and when and where he desires he secures the salvation of his elect. I am called to present the message knowing that God must close the deal.

 

[Damian Newman]

Do Calvinists believe that God knows all by already determining all that will be?

 

[drstevej]

Thanks for the post John 1720, my bent is not in the direction of theology via logical extrapolation especially as it becomes philosophy or sci-fi. I leave that to others. I much prefer exegesis.

Not to say your post has no merit, just not my cup of tea.

I did write a parody for fun that might be good for some yuks here:

The Time Warp (Rocky Horror Theology Show)

It's astounding, Free-willers are beaming
Humanism takes its toll
God was sovereign, not for very much longer
Man has got to keep control

Then they invented using the Time Warp
Postulating those moments when
Depravity quickly receded to prevenient calling
Let's do the time warp again...
Let's do the time warp again!

It's just a twist of the Text
And a bit of Star Trek
With your hands on the keys
You begin to type

But it's the Pelagian thrust that really drives them insane,
Let's do the Time Warp again!

 

[drstevej]

Do Calvinists believe that God knows all by already determining all that will be?

Calvinists state it this way, "He works all things after the counsel of His will." (Ephesians 1:11)

 

[Arcoe]

God does not elect within time and it is impossible for one to know they are elect unless they come to faith. The word "chance" is interesting but inaccurate. Election is the opposite of chance. The focus of the gospel presentation is forgiveness of sin and faith in Jesus. One can clearly present the gospel without a detailed discussion of election.

I understand, but I'm talking about a 'chance' of salvation with the non-elect. Do they have any 'chance' at all to be saved?

This focus of the gospel presentation of which you speak, is for the elect only. Would you agree?

Why would a Calvinist preach the gospel of salvation without mentioning election? Election is the foundation of salvation in Calvinism. If one is not elected, it matters not if Jesus died for them. It matters not they repent of their sins. It matters not if they are regenerated.

I am always willing to discuss election but I have no idea whether a non believer is elect or not and do not try to figure it out. God chooses and when and where he desires he secures the salvation of his elect. I am called to present the message knowing that God must close the deal.

This is what I am saying, election is the heart of Calvinism salvation. Why not present it to the unsaved so they at least they know they may not be elect, thus no 'chance' of salvation. Why keep a fundamental truth from the unsaved?

 

[Damian Newman]

Calvinists state it this way, "He works all things after the counsel of His will." (Ephesians 1:11)

That way of stating it doesn't answer my question, no offense intended: Do Calvinists believe that God knows all by already determining all that will be?

I welcome an answer from all, Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike.

 

[Keachian]

That way of stating it doesn't answer my question, no offense intended: Do Calvinists believe that God knows all by already determining all that will be?

I welcome an answer from all, Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike.

The context helps a bit in understanding what Paul is talking about and a straight answer would be yes, God wills all things to happen and then causes them to come to pass.

 

[Damian Newman]

The context helps a bit in understanding what Paul is talking about and a straight answer would be yes, God wills all things to happen and then causes them to come to pass.

OK then, thank you. This has settled the issue of Calvinism.

David, who declared, "I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation", also, in humility, said of God's knowledge, "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."

David said this knowledge "knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether."
This is a testimony of God's all knowing nature.

Now, if God knows all because he has already determined all that will be, David's humility is nothing more than admitting he isn't as smart as John Calvin. This is because God's all knowing nature becomes understandable on our human level: God just determines everything that will happen. Very understandable how He would know all that will be then.
But David, who was smarter than all his teachers, didn't even come close to hinting that this was the case. David testified of God just the way He is - all knowing - and didn't even try to explain how God can be like this.

David didn't understand it. Nor can we. We just believe it. "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."
God can know an undetermined future or an infinite number of futures all at once. Is this impossible for God because it is impossible for you to believe God is powerful enough to do this? Why must your finite mind confine God Himself?

Our God is infinite.

 

[Keachian]

OK then, thank you. This has settled the issue of Calvinism.

David, who declared, "I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation", also, in humility, said of God's knowledge, "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."

David said this knowledge "knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether."
This is a testimony of God's all knowing nature.

Now, if God knows all because he has already determined all that will be, David's humility is nothing more than admitting he isn't as smart as John Calvin. This is because God's all knowing nature becomes understandable on our human level: God just determines everything that will happen. Very understandable how He would know all that will be then.
But David, who was smarter than all his teachers, didn't even come close to hinting that this was the case. David testified of God just the way He is - all knowing - and didn't even try to explain how God can be like this.

David didn't understand it. Nor can we. We just believe it. "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."
God can know an undetermined future or an infinite number of futures all at once. Is this impossible for God because it is impossible for you to believe God is powerful enough to do this? Why must your finite mind confine God Himself?

Our God is infinite.

What you are proposing now is middle knowledge and while philosophically speaking I could accept such a thing, it's just something that we do not find in Scripture, I'm not saying I understand God, far be it from me a lowly person to say such a thing, I am saying that based on what God has revealed through Scripture this is what is true.

 

[MuffinTheMan]

OK then, thank you. This has settled the issue of Calvinism.

David, who declared, "I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation", also, in humility, said of God's knowledge, "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."

David said this knowledge "knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether."
This is a testimony of God's all knowing nature.

Now, if God knows all because he has already determined all that will be, David's humility is nothing more than admitting he isn't as smart as John Calvin. This is because God's all knowing nature becomes understandable on our human level: God just determines everything that will happen. Very understandable how He would know all that will be then.
But David, who was smarter than all his teachers, didn't even come close to hinting that this was the case. David testified of God just the way He is - all knowing - and didn't even try to explain how God can be like this.

David didn't understand it. Nor can we. We just believe it. "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."
God can know an undetermined future or an infinite number of futures all at once. Is this impossible for God because it is impossible for you to believe God is powerful enough to do this? Why must your finite mind confine God Himself?

Our God is infinite.

Read on in Psalm 139:

"For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; wonderful are Your works, and my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them." - Psalm 139:13-16