The Way International

[jessedance]

. These discussions regarding the Trinity are relegated to the understandings with which mans lineal and sometimes binary brain functions are somewhat limited.
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trinity isn't a deeper truth of god, it isn't even a doctrine of god. it came from india, hinduism mostly. trinity doesn't make sense and is contradictory. 3 beings each of which is god don't add up to three gods but add up to one god doesn't make sense and is contradictory. deeper truths add to basic truths they don't eliminate them and truth is when you have 3 beings each of which is god that adds up to 3 gods not one. this is basic truth 3 apples are 3 apples not one 3 cars are 3 cars not one. it isn't a deeper truth that 3 cars add up to one car. that is a contradiciton just as much as saying god the father, god the son and god the holy spirit are, is one god. truth isn't a contradiciton. additionally, god says things that make sense, god doesn't say things that we can't understand. it isn't the prupose of scripture to leave us with a confussed understanding of who god is if our doctrine re****s in doctrine that is contradictory and makes no sene then it is wrong. contradictions aren';t truth they are lies.

 

[Rescued One]

trinity isn't a deeper truth of god, it isn't even a doctrine of god. it came from india, hinduism mostly. trinity doesn't make sense and is contradictory. 3 beings each of which is god don't add up to three gods but add up to one god doesn't make sense and is contradictory. deeper truths add to basic truths they don't eliminate them and truth is when you have 3 beings each of which is god that adds up to 3 gods not one. this is basic truth 3 apples are 3 apples not one 3 cars are 3 cars not one. it isn't a deeper truth that 3 cars add up to one car. that is a contradiciton just as much as saying god the father, god the son and god the holy spirit are, is one god. truth isn't a contradiciton. additionally, god says things that make sense, god doesn't say things that we can't understand. it isn't the prupose of scripture to leave us with a confussed understanding of who god is if our doctrine re****s in doctrine that is contradictory and makes no sene then it is wrong. contradictions aren';t truth they are lies.

Pagan trinities included a female.

Why do you want to put God into a box that fits our understanding of mathematics? There is only one God who is totally unique. He isn't like a man. Did he create Adam from the dust of the earth? Does that fit your understanding? Is it scientific? Can you create a person from the dust of the earth?

Three men equal three men. God is not a man.

 

[Rescued One]

ah but my supposition supposes there is only one god not 3. remember god the son is dead and there is only one god so there is no god to raise himself from the dead. also, if god the son is dead he can't do anything. so there would be no one to raise god the son from the dead if he is the only god there is . unless maybe he was only playing like he was dead?

God the Son may have died, but His Spirit didn't. Remember as He was dying, He said,"Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit," and having said that, he gave up the ghost.

God the Son Who died for our sins had already told His apostles that He would raise Himself from the dead. With man, that is impossible, with God it is not.

 

[gort]

Hello JD,

Because God is Spirit, we cannot add apples and cars and such to determine. As I said, it is a spiritual understanding for me. I cannot explain how the Spirit indwells me with solid objects, neither linear and binary thought processes. THis positronic brain don't work that way.

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[jessedance]

God the Son may have died, but His Spirit didn't.

then you have at least 2 gods, one dead and the other reviving the dead one.

 

[jessedance]

Hello JD,

Because God is Spirit, we cannot add apples and cars and such to determine. As I said, it is a spiritual understanding for me.
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it is a spiritual understanding to know that Jesus is the son of god, that god has all power, that there is one god, that god is spirit being and fills heaven and earth. these are not illogical and contradictiory statements saysing 3 beings is one being is a contradcition and your brain tells you so whether you believe it or not.

 

[Rescued One]

then you have at least 2 gods, one dead and the other reviving the dead one.

God the Son became flesh and dwelt among us. He was Emmanuel which means God with us.

Many deceivers do not acknowledge that Christ came in the flesh. Jesus experienced temptation just as we do, yet he was without sin. All men have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but Jesus was without sin. If Jesus hadn't been a man, he couldn't have died for us. If he hadn't been God, he would not have been the perfect Lamb.

We are never to worship anyone but God. God's messengers, the angels, did not allow people to worship them. Christ allowed people to worship Him. If he were merely a man of God or an angel, He would not have let people worship Him. If he was not God and allowed people to worship Him, He was sinful because He knew the commandments of God.

Jesus declared, John 10
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Luke 18
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

If Jesus tells us only God is good, and He calls Himself good, we need to pick up on what He is telling us.

 

[jessedance]

God the Son became flesh and dwelt among us. He was Emmanuel which means God with us.

Many deceivers do not acknowledge that Christ came in the flesh. Jesus experienced temptation just as we do, yet he was without sin. All men have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but Jesus was without sin. If Jesus hadn't been a man, he couldn't have died for us. If he hadn't been God, he would not have been the perfect Lamb.

We are never to worship anyone but God. God's messengers, the angels, did not allow people to worship them. Christ allowed people to worship Him. If he were merely a man of God or an angel, He would not have let people worship Him. If he was not God and allowed people to worship Him, He was sinful because He knew the commandments of God.

Jesus declared, John 10
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Luke 18
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

If Jesus tells us only God is good, and He calls Himself good, we need to pick up on what He is telling us.

all this has nothing to do with the fact that your belief system has 2 gods one reviving the other dead one. that's two gods.

 

[jessedance]

your just shifting the focus away from the problem i.e. two gods.

 

[zeontes]

When Moses spoke this:

DEUT 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Was this not a prophecy of the Christ? Jesus would definitely be considered to be from the midst of the Children of Israel.

JN 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. (legally he was Joseph's son)

ACTS 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
ACTS 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

ACTS 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Sounds like these two are different to me. This is what was being taught concerning Jesus to those who were to be born again on the day of the outpouring of the holy spirit on Pentecost. That Jesus was a man, approved of God, slain, whom God raised from the dead. Where is it written anywhere in the book of Acts that people had to believe that Jesus was God to be born again?

ACTS 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

ACTS 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained (Jesus); [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

It is my contention that the doctrine of the trinity was developed over a space of time in order to deal with the heresies of the day. There were those who believed that Jesus was just a spirit who took corporeal form and there were others who believed he was just a common man, a prophet. The early Church leaders modified the scriptures, taking the initiative to change the Word of God in order to prevent heretical groups from using unclear verses to support their doctrine. In the process other inconsistancies developed until you have the doctrine of the Trinity embraced by Emperor Constantine. Yet to this day no one can explain the Trinity concept, even though the scriptures clearly state:

EPH 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

and,

ROM 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The trinity is not clearly seen, neither is it possible to understand by reading the Bible. It is only partially understood by wresting scriptures out of context and having someone tell you that these verses explain that there is a trinity.

Those who walked, ate, dressed, bathed, cried, and prayed with Jesus, never taught the people that they needed to believe that Jesus is God. They taught that Jesus was the Son of God, a man approved of God, whom God raised from the dead. It would have been considered blasphemy or insanity if they taught that God the Son had died, but that God raised him from the dead. This was the same type of thing taught by the gentiles concerning Tammuz, Adonis, Dumuzi, and Attis. Each country or region had their variation on the death and resurrection of the fertility god.

Hey, do you think that might have been an influence on the development of this doctrine? I mean really the Gentiles had a god that came back to life, Christians only had a man that came back to life, to them that would appear to be "less than" would it not? Now if we just elevate Jesus to the position of God, we can be just like the Gentiles! That would make it much easier to get the gentiles to believe, and from what I see it worked, but at what expense?

 

[ByGrace]

well if jesus is god and there is only one god then god died and was dead for 3 days and 3 nights and the world had no god cause there was none. wonder who revived god since he was dead?

If the body dies does that mean we no longer exist? No, God is a spirit and it was only the earthly tabernacle that died. Your first mistake is to try and place God in a box that you can fully comprehend. We are His creation, not the other way around. God was only dead in the flesh. God will always be alive and fully God.

 

[ByGrace]

jesus never denied a lot of things. he never denied that he was a woman , that doesnt prove he was a w oman. jesus never denied he was a dog that doesnt prove he was a dog.

Are you serious? This is getting just a little scary.

 

[ByGrace]

he didn't claim he was god. people interpret scripture to mean it or they use spurios scirpture to prove it.

Well the Jewish people believe He did also or they would not have tried to stone Him. Also, was it not Jesus that told the disciples, in reference to the request to see the Father, that if they had seen Him (Jesus) they had seen the Father?

John 1

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the WORD WAS GOD.

There is only one God JD and that is God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit, all manifestations of the One, Triune God.

 

[ByGrace]

then you have at least 2 gods, one dead and the other reviving the dead one.

I think you are just trying to argue. OVer and OUT!

 

[jessedance]

I think you are just trying to argue. OVer and OUT!

you will notice that this is the open discussion and debate room, if i have been too harsh I apologise. i try not to and don't feel that the quote i made was too harsh. i could have perhaps worded it more softly but i certainly didn't use any insulting language .
saying that god the holy spirit revived god the son from the dead says to me that you have here two gods and one is reviving the other, to conclude that the two distinct persons of god each of which is god all by himself is one god makes no sense to me or any non trinitarian , i should think.

 

[zeontes]

Well the Jewish people believe He did also or they would not have tried to stone Him. Also, was it not Jesus that told the disciples, in reference to the request to see the Father, that if they had seen Him (Jesus) they had seen the Father?

John 1

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the WORD WAS GOD.

There is only one God JD and that is God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit, all manifestations of the One, Triune God.

I know that I am not here to argue, but to debate in a calm rational manner. It is obvious to me that you believe in the Triune God, I also did at one time in my life. What changed that for me was to stop and read the Bible without trying to prove my point. The scriptures will interpret themselves, but if you already have your mind made up then you stop God from opening the eyes of your understanding.

JAS 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Meekness is required. This is why I enjoy the concept of CF, you have the time to contemplate.

I believe that you stated that the Jewish people tried to stone Jesus because he claimed to be God. But, had he actually claimed to be God they surely would have stoned him for blasphemy. So, what he said to them cleared up their misunderstanding. Shouldn't this clear up everyone's misunderstanding?:
JN 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

JN 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

JN 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

JN 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Concerning the second part of your post: The Bible is also God's Word. We know the Living Word through the written Word and can then know God. I have not physically, with my eyes, seen Jesus. I know what I know because of what the Bible says. But I have what I have, through Jesus Christ according to what God has revealed in His Word.

As God's Word, the written Word, would have had to be with Him in the beginning. But can I state that the Bible is God? I do not think that they are identical, but God is as much the written Word as He is the Living Word. Do you see that this verse in John 1 doesn't mean that Jesus Christ the Son of God is God almighty, creator of Heaven and earth, eternal, and invisible?

Many years ago I also had to stop and think about why I believed that Jesus was "God the Son", rather than, as the Bible says, "the Son of God". Someone pointed out to me that the words "God the Son" do not appear in the Bible, anywhere. The Bible is full of proof concerning the coming Messiah being a man, who would be able to redeem mankind from Adams transgression. A lamb from the flock. How can Almighty God be just a lamb from the flock? Now I can easily see how Jesus, the son of God, could be considered the perfect sacrifice and legally able to be tempted and tried, yet without sin.

How in the world can God be tempted? He knows everything from the beginning to the end. He knows that you are reading this right now and that I am typing this right now, He knew it before time was, so how could anyone surprise Him? Trick Him? Tempt Him? It cannot be done. But His son, being human, was born and grew up as the legal child of Mary and Joseph. I can understand that he would be able to live a life approved of God, choosing to adhere to the Word of God. Proving that God is the greater power over anything that the Devil had to offer.

 

[jessedance]

If the body dies does that mean we no longer exist? No, God is a spirit and thatit was only the earthly tabernacle died. Your first mistake is to try and place God in a box that you can fully comprehend. We are His creation, not the other way around. God was only dead in the flesh. God will always be alive and fully God.

well, this concept that Jesus was just a body that god occupied or god the son occupied, and that only the body of jesus died I find to be faulty for the reason that most all adherants to the belief in a triune God claim that Jesus was "fully man and fully god". if Jesus is fully man that means he has a body soul and spirit like all men and that he died like all men that die do.
let us look closely at

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

kjv It doesn't make any sense to me for Jesus to commend his spirit to god if his spirit is god. that would be like Jesus saying "ok god you can have your spirit back"but if jesus is just a body then how can he say that? our bodys don't think and talk, we use them to do that don't we?
In this verse , it is shown that Jesus gave up his human spirit, which he possessed like all 'full men' and that it wasn't the spirit of God that he yielded up for the spirit of the living god had already left him on the cross alone.

Mark 15:34 and at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a great voice, saying, `Eloi, Eloi, lamma sabachthani?' which is, being interpreted, `My God, my God, why didst Thou forsake me?'

placing god in a box that i can understand? if we can't understand what we believe then we don't really know if it is true or not. true we accept by faith everything in the bible as being true., and I do, but triune is not a word in the bible and no one is obligated to accept by faith that god is "triune" for the bible doesn't say it. i didn't really understand john 1:1 fully for a long time, now i feel i have a very good understanding of it, but when i didn't fully understand john 1:1 i acccepted it as being true because i believed god said it. i didn't accept the trinitarian interpetation of it as being true because it isn't anything I can understand. it makes no sense to me. god didn't say it trinitarians say it . I don't accept by faith what trinitarians say or oneness people say, I accept by faith what god says. what god says i don't have to understand i just have to believe it. what man says god meant i do not have to believe and if it makes no sense i reject it for i believe god is agbundantly more logical than i am. to accept that the things god says make no sense is to place god in an 'illogical box.'

 

[jessedance]

oh i feel like the spirit of god was on me in that last post of mine. force de frappe

 

[bubblegirl0101]

jessedance and anyone else-
Is an "illogical box" anything like that "lock box" Al Gore mentioned in the last election? Just kidding. Anyway, I think that rejecting something because it doesn't make sense is not a way to arrive at the truth about the Trinity, or even everyday things like math etc. If the truth is only what makes sense, then the truth is subjective, varying as to what makes sense from person to person. Is that what you're trying to say? That it doesn't make sense to you is not a valid argument against the Trinity or against the fully-human, fully-God nature of Jesus. If something makes sense to me, should I automatically accept that it's true? But I seek not to understand that I may believe, but believe that I may understand.
Also, you've spent alot of time saying what John 1:1 doesn't mean, but what do you think it means?
And to anyone familiar with Way beliefs, this was a random question I've been wondering about for awhile. If the Way teaches that there is no hell, and that hell is gehenna or the grave, then what are verses like Luke 16:22 ff, Matthew 13:42, Revelation 20:15 etc. talking about? I'm not looking to debate the existence of hell, I was just wondering what they believe.
Also, the words triune and trinity aren't in the Bible, but neither are many Way beliefs including the law of believing. Any comments?

 

[jessedance]

buble girl;
I was a member of the way for about 2 years from the spring of 83, i got baptised in the holy spirit while a member there, till early in 85. I never believed that part about there being no eternal torment for unbelievers.
'illogical box?' well it was just my response to someone saying i painted god into a box i could understand. I do not believe truth to be variable or subjective but an absolute.

That it doesn't make sense to you is not a valid argument against the Trinity or against the fully-human, fully-God nature of Jesus. If something makes sense to me, should I automatically accept that it's true? But I seek not to understand that I may believe, but believe that I may understand.

That it doesn't make sense to me is a valid argument for me not accepting it or teaching it or believing it because, if i can't understand it or if it makes no sense to me i can't testify to its veracity. some scripture i don't understand or i don't understand real well but i accept them as being true even though i don't understand them. I do not accept what my church or any church says that scritpure means without proving it to myself . thats the only way i can tell if what is being said to me is true or not. I cannot prove trinity to be true for it is illogical to me. If you find it logical well then guess you gotta preach it.
i just explained my belief about john 1:1 in another post this morning