The Waters Above the Firmament

[Dale]

Believing God's true creation given in The Bible, is a witness to the Glory and greatness of God. Creation proclaims, i have been created, and The Bible identifies the creator as God/Jesus/Holy Spirit

That is why (i believe) satan has attacked God's true creation with a false (lie) one.

The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the raqia (firmament, expanse, dome) shows His handiwork

To Him who alone does great wonders,
For His mercy endures forever;
To Him who by wisdom made the heavens,
For His mercy endures forever;
To Him who laid out the earth above the waters,
For His mercy endures forever;
To Him who made great lights,
For His mercy endures forever—
The sun to rule by day,
For His mercy endures forever;
The moon and stars to rule by night,
For His mercy endures forever.
​

1st heaven: sky, where the sun, moon and stars have been placed by God to give light upon the earth.

The Hebrews knew God's true creation and not the lie one now accepted by a majority of people.

I do not have to reconcile anything, i believe the creation that God created and that is described in The Bible.

It is science that is lying about God's creation not The Bible.

D Taylor,

The following comes from an article on Isaiah 40:22, which refers to “the circle of the earth.”

“Some people, for various reasons, take "the circle of the earth" in Isaiah 40:22 to be a reference to a spherical earth. This would mean that the ancient Israelites of the eighth century BC knew that the earth was spherical and not flat. This perspective shows up in arguments from both Young Earth Creationists -1- and from those wanting to argue an absolutely literal reading of the biblical text, usually to support the idea that God revealed modern scientific facts and data to the ancient Israelites.”

The meat of the article:

“The Hebrew word that is used in Isaiah 40:22 (חוּג, chug) does not at all imply a spherical earth.”

“This term refers to a 'circle instrument' a device used to make a circle, what we call a compass.”

“The verbal form of the word basically means 'to make a circle' or 'to scribe a circle.'”

“Most modern translators agree that this ‘scribing a circle’ in relation to the world refers to the horizon of the earth.”

“People of the Ancient Near East, as well as ancient Hebrews and Israelites, conceptualized the world as a large, flat, circular disk anchored in water below (the deep, Prov 8:27, Gen 1:2, 49:25, etc.) by pillars or foundations (1 Sam 2:8, Prov 8:29, etc.). Between the earth and this deep was Sheol, the place of the dead. -2- The earth was covered by a "firmament," conceived as a large solid upside down bowl or "dome" (Job 22:14, 37:18), in which the stars were placed (Gen 1:14-20). Above the dome was also water, which was the source of rain.”


Serious study of the Bible shows that the ancient Israelites did not understand the earth to be a sphere. They thought of the earth as a flat disc and they did conceive the waters above the firmament to be the source of rain.


Christian Resource Institute, The Voice, Biblical and Theological Resources for Growing Christians

Article: The Circle of the Earth

Link The Circle of the Earth: Translation and Meaning in Isaiah 40:22

 

[d taylor]

D Taylor,

I’m glad you are bothered to respond to my thread. I’m afraid that you are just projecting your own views into Bible, especially the first chapters of Genesis.

I quoted Scripture in post #27 and you ignored it. Instead you attack science.

A number of verses refer to “the ends of the earth.” This can only refer to the earth as a flat plane. The ancients may have seen it as a circular disc but they assumed it was flat.

Take a look at these.

He will guard the feet of his saints, but the wicked will be silenced in darkness. “It is not by strength that one prevails; those who oppose the LORD will be shattered. He will thunder against them from heaven; the LORD will judge the ends of the earth. “He will give strength to his king and exalt the horn of his anointed.
I Samuel 2:9-10 NIV

God understands the way to it and he alone knows where it dwells, for he views the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.
When he established the force of the wind and measured out the waters …
Job 28: 23-25 NIV

Like your name, O God, your praise reaches to the ends of the earth; your right hand is filled with righteousness.
Psalm 48:10 NIV

Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has
gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!
Psalm 30:4 NIV

All of these “ends of the earth” verses conceive the earth as flat and finite. Biblical authors assumed that if you traveled in any direction, you would come to the edge of the world. They didn’t seem to have a firm opinion on how far away that might be but they clearly believed the edge of the world existed.

I believe there are more verses using the same phrase, but this list is enough to make the point.

Earth in the Bible means land, not a planet. So in God's original creation there was and end to the land (earth) as the original creation was one piece of earth (land) more than likely in the shape of a circle or circular in shape.

 

[The Barbarian]

All of these “ends of the earth” verses conceive the earth as flat and finite.

It's basic topology. A flat earth would be finite and bounded. Hence, ends of the Earth.

A globe is finite, but unbounded; it is without ends.

And that's the difference.

 

[The Barbarian]

Earth in the Bible means land, not a planet. So in God's original creation there was and end to the land (earth) as the original creation was one piece of earth (land) more than likely in the shape of a circle or circular in shape.

Interesting and a distinction worth noting. "Erets" is properly translated as "land", meaning an area of land, maybe "hereabouts", "my land", "this nation", etc. "Tebel" is the word for the whole world.

So maybe that's an important distinction and worth keeping in mind.

Since the early Israelites saw the sky as a solid dome over the world, it seems to me that they originally conceived the world as flat, not global.

 

[BeyondET]

D Taylor,

The following comes from an article on Isaiah 40:22, which refers to “the circle of the earth.”

“Some people, for various reasons, take "the circle of the earth" in Isaiah 40:22 to be a reference to a spherical earth. This would mean that the ancient Israelites of the eighth century BC knew that the earth was spherical and not flat. This perspective shows up in arguments from both Young Earth Creationists -1- and from those wanting to argue an absolutely literal reading of the biblical text, usually to support the idea that God revealed modern scientific facts and data to the ancient Israelites.”

The meat of the article:

“The Hebrew word that is used in Isaiah 40:22 (חוּג, chug) does not at all imply a spherical earth.”

“This term refers to a 'circle instrument' a device used to make a circle, what we call a compass.”

“The verbal form of the word basically means 'to make a circle' or 'to scribe a circle.'”

“Most modern translators agree that this ‘scribing a circle’ in relation to the world refers to the horizon of the earth.”

“People of the Ancient Near East, as well as ancient Hebrews and Israelites, conceptualized the world as a large, flat, circular disk anchored in water below (the deep, Prov 8:27, Gen 1:2, 49:25, etc.) by pillars or foundations (1 Sam 2:8, Prov 8:29, etc.). Between the earth and this deep was Sheol, the place of the dead. -2- The earth was covered by a "firmament," conceived as a large solid upside down bowl or "dome" (Job 22:14, 37:18), in which the stars were placed (Gen 1:14-20). Above the dome was also water, which was the source of rain.”


Serious study of the Bible shows that the ancient Israelites did not understand the earth to be a sphere. They thought of the earth as a flat disc and they did conceive the waters above the firmament to be the source of rain.


Christian Resource Institute, The Voice, Biblical and Theological Resources for Growing Christians

Article: The Circle of the Earth

Link The Circle of the Earth: Translation and Meaning in Isaiah 40:22

hmm this implies they wrote the passage from their own understanding of the earth and not inspired by God.

 

[chad kincham]

Gee, I've been a Christian 50 years and I've never been asked my views on creation v. evolution. I've not seen creationists rounding up evolutionists and driving them out. I've missed all that fun.

I'm a creationist because that is what God says and because I saw his glory in the creation before I was saved. I also cannot see how sin came into the world through evolution. That's just me. If people can find a way to rationalise evolution and God's word, fine. I'll put my point of view, if the subject comes up but that's it.

There’s no way to believe the Bible and be a theistic evolutionist - the two are diametrically opposed.

Adam can not be the product of evolution. He was alone, without even a woman around, until God cloned Eve from Adams rib cells.

And death did not exist until the fall of Adam and Eve, yet evolution is based on death, per Darwin:

In the conclusion of The Origin of Species, Darwin stated, “Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows.

Evolution requires death of all the precursor animals that gradually evolved into humans.

Adams origin was not from Darwinian gradualism - thus one can be a theistic evolutionist, but not a bible believing evolutionist.

 

[chad kincham]

Several times on CF I’ve had someone tell me that I’m not a Christian because I am not a Young Earth Creationist.

Where I live, there are preachers who go out of their way to preach that there is creationism and atheism and nothing else. I have talked to at least one person on CF who was taught that as a child, then found out that creationism doesn’t work. He became an atheist. There are probably many others in the same situation.

Several years ago on CF, I talked to a girl, about 20, who was taught the same thing. When she found out that creationism won’t work, she went through a year long religious crisis when she didn’t know what she believed or if she believed anything. She finally managed to make the transition to being a non-creationist Christian.

Recently, I talked to a man who is a music minister at a nondenominational church. He is studying toward a degree to become a preaching minister as well. He told me that he had taken a test that covered Noah’s Flood. Although he is a creationist, he apparently wasn’t enough of a creationist for the professor, and was downgraded on several questions on the test.

Who says creationism doesn’t work? Atheist professors who drum naturalism, materialism and atheism into their students?

The created, or designed universe is evident to many secular physicists and astronomers - even Dawkins admits that life “appears to be designed” then pleads his case for the random origin of life in The Blind Watchmaker.

Of course it appears to be designed - because it is.

 

[chad kincham]

No I don't expect clouds to be mentioned in the account of Noah for the reasons I said before, clouds as we know them are a post flood phenomenon. At the time of the flood they lived under the firmament which kept the earth warm like a blanket. We can only imagine what the sky looked like to Noah before the flood, probably just a uniform grey

There were no pre flood clouds - Genesis states there was no rain on the earth then, the surface got its water from underground sources - there was not enough surface water for the hydrologic cycle until the earth ended up 71% covered with water post-flood - now there’s enough evaporation of surface water to form clouds.

Maranatha

 

[Job 33:6]

hmm this implies they wrote the passage from their own understanding of the earth and not inspired by God.

Being inspired by God doesn't mean being divinely enlightened on the shape of planets. It's not like God informed people of astrophysics. The ancient Hebrews had scientific limitations in knowledge, just as everyone else did at the time.

 

[The Barbarian]

There’s no way to believe the Bible and be a theistic evolutionist - the two are diametrically opposed

Evolution is completely consistent with the Bible. Couldn't be otherwise. God created it, after all. There are some forms of creationism that are also consistent with the Bible, but not YE creationism.

Adam can not be the product of evolution. He was alone, without even a woman around, until God cloned Eve from Adams rib cells.

Since the text itself says that the creation story is not a literal history, that isn't a problem for Christians.

And death did not exist until the fall of Adam and Eve, yet evolution is based on death, per Darwin:

God told Adam that he would die the day he ate from the tree. But Adam did eat, and lived on physically for many years afterward. So we know it wasn't a physical death God was speaking of. Again, if you accept scripture as it is, evolution is no problem.

 

[BeyondET]

Being inspired by God doesn't mean being divinely enlightened on the shape of planets. It's not like God informed people of astrophysics. The ancient Hebrews had scientific limitations in knowledge, just as everyone else did at the time.

people of old had a personal relationship with God as well, so how do you know God didn't inform them.

 

[The Barbarian]

There were no pre flood clouds

The Bible does not say that. It only says that the Garden of Eden was watered by groundwater, not rain. Elsewhere, it makes no such claims. And of course, given oceans (which were already in existence according to God), there would be clouds merely by evaporation and condensation. No way to avoid it.

- Genesis states there was no rain on the earth then, the surface got its water from underground sources - there was not enough surface water for the hydrologic cycle until the earth ended up 71% covered with water post-flood

God says otherwise...

Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, he called Seas.

Genesis 1:21 And God created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, which the waters brought forth, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. [22] And he blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the waters of the sea: and let the birds be multiplied upon the earth.

 

[BeyondET]

The Bible does not say that. It only says that the Garden of Eden was watered by groundwater, not rain. Elsewhere, it makes no such claims. And of course, given oceans (which were already in existence according to God), there would be clouds merely by evaporation and condensation. No way to avoid it.



God says otherwise...

Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, he called Seas.

Genesis 1:21 And God created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, which the waters brought forth, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. [22] And he blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the waters of the sea: and let the birds be multiplied upon the earth.

good example of that is Virgo clouds

 

[Job 33:6]

people of old had a personal relationship with God as well, so how do you know God didn't inform them.

You know what they believed based on what they wrote of course. So if there are verses saying that the land was a flat circle, or that the firmament had windows that water poured through, or that birds flew across the face of the firmament, or that pillars supported the earth etc. Etc., You can therefore see what they knew about that particular topic.

If they believed the planet was a sphere, then they would have said so.

It's all about letting scripture speak, and us not speaking for scripture.

 

[BeyondET]

You know what they believed based on what they wrote of course. So if there are verses saying that the land was a flat circle, or that the firmament had windows that water poured through, or that pillars supported the earth etc. Etc., You can therefore see what they knew about that particular topic.

If they believed the planet was a sphere, then they would have said so.

It's all about letting scripture speak, and us not speaking for scripture.

the scriptures is written for all generations and their knowledge of things, a round circle can be a disk or a sphere i will agree. there are things in the bible that the current generation cannot understand fully. thus the simple statement round and circle are the two words to described the shape of earth in the bible.

 

[Job 33:6]

the scriptures is written for all generations and their knowledge of things, a round circle can be a disk or a sphere i will agree. there are things in the bible that the current generation cannot understand fully. thus the simple statement round and circle are the two words to described the shape of earth in the bible.

It's not about the current generation not understanding. How could earth be supported by pillars if it wasn't flat? Or how could the firmament have windows in which water passed through if it were not a solid structure? Its very clear exactly what the original author of Genesis was saying. He viewed the world as flat, supported by pillars, with a solid half dome over it which separated the waters from the waters, in which the heavenly waters passed through it's windows and in which birds flew across the face of the dome. This is just what the scripture says. I'm literally just quoting it.

How do we know that the authors of the OT weren't aware that the earth was round? A. scripture describes it as flat and B. They don't describe it as round.

It's about letting scripture speak and not speaking for scripture.

And that's about it.

 

[BeyondET]

It's not about the current generation not understanding. How could earth be supported by pillars if it wasn't flat? Or how could the firmament have windows in which water passed through if it were not a solid structure? Its very clear exactly what the original author of Genesis was saying. He viewed the world as flat, supported by pillars, with a solid half dome over it which separated the waters from the waters, in which the heavenly waters passed through it's windows and in which birds flew across the face of the dome. This is just what the scripture says. I'm literally just quoting it.

How do we know that the authors of the OT weren't aware that the earth was round? A. scripture describes it as flat and B. They don't describe it as round.

It's about letting scripture speak and not speaking for scripture.

And that's about it.

Well the earth,moon,mars, saturn, the other planets and sun, the whole solar system resides on a pillar a arm of the Milky Way galaxy waters above.

Windows Floodgates Bottles, these are figuratively speaking about cloud formation and raining cats and dogs literally jk.


Genesis 7:12
And the rain fell upon the earth for forty days and forty nights.

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Proverbs 8:28
When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Job 37:11-13
Also by watering he wearieth the thick cloud: he scattereth his bright cloud: …

Job 38:37
Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,

Job 36:27
For He draws up drops of water which distill the rain from the mist,

Job 36:28
which the clouds pour out and shower abundantly on mankind.

Amos 5:8
Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name:

 

[BeyondET]

Polar caps, north and south poles number 10

Job 37

9The tempest comes from its chamber,
and the cold from the driving north winds.

10By the breath of God the ice is formed and the watery expanses are frozen.

11He loads the clouds with moisture; He scatters His lightning through them.

 

[chad kincham]

Since the text itself says that the creation story is not a literal history, that isn't a problem for Christians.

Jesus taught Adam and Eve literally, and no text says Genesis is allegorical that I’ve ever seen.

No form of death existed before the fall, neither spiritual or physical.

Death did not exist, and no animals were carnivores before the fall. On the new earth, all things will be restored to Edenic conditions, and there will again be no death and animals like lions will be herbivores again, per the prophet Isaiah.

One can’t escape the fact Adam has a sudden appearance from dirt, and was alone until God cloned Eve from Adams rib cells, eliminating any possibility that he arrived as a product of evolutionary gradualism.

 

[chad kincham]

The Bible does not say that. It only says that the Garden of Eden was watered by groundwater, not rain. Elsewhere, it makes no such claims. And of course, given oceans (which were already in existence according to God), there would be clouds merely by evaporation and condensation. No way to avoid it.

There were no oceans on the earth before the flood, and the new earth to come goes back to Edenic conditions and has no seas again.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

There was no hydrologic cycle pre-flood:

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground