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The Universe and all that is in it

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Maccie

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Cool it, folks! I am well aware that there are two completely opposite views on creation, and that neither side gives an inch to the other! But I wasn't asking about the creation of the earth/the truth of scripture/evolution/fallibility/integrity or any of the other things brought up here.

I was asking about the creation of the UNIVERSE - all 20 million galaxies, black holes, dark matter, dark energy, the lot!

In fact I had to start another thread on it to avoid the arguments that have sprung up here.

I would be grateful if Admin would close this thread. Everyone who wants to discuss the creation of the universe can continue on the other thread.
 
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grmorton

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Sojourner<>< said:
This is an interesting argument.

Even if evolution is a possible interpretation for the action performed by the earth in the creative process of plant life, the major problem is that this conflicts with the apparent chronological structure of the Bible.

If we assume that this is correct, it would mean that a massive amount of time would be required for the formation of life on this earth as we know it.
This would also mean that the meaning of the word day (Hebrew "yowm", H03117) is not a literal 24 hour period, since plant life didn't appear until the third day.

I believe that Genesis 1 is the preplanning of the universe. It is God saying what the world would be like. NOte the structure of every proclamation by god. And God said: "Let there be light" and it was so.

Who wrote the 'and it was so'? God didn't say that phrase, the human writer wrote it because from his vantage point it was so. But no where in the Genesis 1 account does it say "And God said: 'Let there be light IMMEDIATELY'. and it was so." Yet the traditional intepretation puts that word Immediately into the account--even if implicitly. You can learn more about this ancient interpretation at http://home.entouch.net/dmd/daysofproclamation.htm




There are only three possible scenarios that I can think of based on your argument:

1) "Yowm" means "age" and the length of time is undefined, but uniform. We know that Adam was created on the sixth day. This means that he would have existed for more than 1 and a portion of an "age". However, this is unfeasible since Adam lived only 930 years as recorded in Genesis 5:5 and would not allow for the billions or even millions of years required for evolution to take place.

No, your problem is that you want Genesis 1 to be occurring after the actuallization of the creation. It doesn't. And, there is a difference in the way that man is spoken of in Genesis 1 vs. an individual in Genesis 2.

2) "Yowm" means "age" with an undefined and inconsistent length of time. This option is incompatible with the pattern of the concluding statement of each of the first six days: "And the evening and the morning was the nth day" which adds an element of uniformity to the meaning of "day". Aside from this, it would be illogical for the same word to be used for different amounts of time.

3) Chapters 1-11 are completely allegorical. This is an impossible scenario as the NT quotes Genesis 4 times as literal fact - twice of Jesus in Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-8 making reference to the creation of male and female in Genesis 1:27 and marriage in 2:24. This would also upset the entire plan of redemption and core message of the Bible.

I don't like #3. But your arguments and possibilities listed don't cover all options. Go see that web page of mine.

In my own opinion, I would have to say that these problems outweigh eisegesis based on verb tense rather than definition.

Maybe you should look a bit deeper before getting stuck in your box. The Bible actually does tell us that the earth is old. But YECs don't pay attention to it. This is from my web page http://home.entouch.net/dmd/olam.htm

This is something I wrote in an attempt to convince YECs that the Bible doesn’t teach what they say it does. I am convinced that the TE’s will not succeed at convincing the young-earthers that TE is ok, until there is a theology to go with TE that the YECs don’t think destroys the Bible. This post is part of my efforts along those lines.

The YECs need to know from both scripture and ancient –prescientific sources that the Bible does not necessarily teach what they have been taught. I believe that there are numerous indications in Scripture that the earth is old and that evolution is allowable. But their YEC teachers not only don’t teach them what is out there in geology, their YEC teachers don’t teach them what is in the Scripture, preferring instead to stick like bull-necked individuals with one and only one possibility. I hope this will open other possibilities for the YEC, like my discovery that God ordered the earth to do the bringing forth in Genesis 11:11, 24.

There is a Hebrew world which the YEC literalists seem always to ignore and never incorporate into their thinking. The word is Olam. It refers to an indefinite period of time with the connotation of infinity.

Strong defines it as:



"properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always:—always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end)"James Strong, Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries, Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 1998, Parsons Technology, Inc


Brown-Driver-Briggs defines it as:




"1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
"Brown-Driver-Briggs’ Hebrew Definitions Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 1999, Findex.com, Inc.


The thing to note about this word is that it has a semi-infinite connotation to it. It is the word which is used in verses where eternity is described.

The everlasting God



Gen 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting[olam] God.


Psalm 106:48 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting[olam olam]

The ‘everlasting to everlasting is olam olam. From everlasting (olam) to everlasting (olam).

This is the word which the Bible uses to describe how long God’s promises will last.

Gen 17:19 I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting[olam] covenant, and with his seed after him.

The YECs will like this one. God promised that when he looks on the rainbow he would not forget his promise

Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting[olam] covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Now, with that as a back ground, I have looked at every single occurrence of Olam in the Old Testament. It is translated 269 times as ‘for ever”, 64 times as ‘everlasting’, 26 times as ‘old’, 22 times as ‘perpetual’, 16 times (with another word) as ‘never’, 15 times as ‘evermore’, 6 times as ‘ancient’, 3 times as ‘always’ with a handful of other words.

Clearly this word has the connotation of eternity or eternal, which is why I said it has a connotation of the infinite.

Now, when faced with a word like olam, in a context like this:

Gen 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting[olam] hills kjv

What is one to think? A word used to express God’s eternal nature, past and future is applied to the hills. A look at other translations of this passage don’t help us out of the problem.



Gen 49:26 The blessings of your father are greater than the blessings of the oldest mountains and the riches of the ancient hills" God’s Word to the Nations Original work copyright © 1995 by God’s Word to the Nations Bible Society


If the word progenitor applies to the progenitors of the hills, then this translation ensues.


Gen 49:26 Your father’s blessings are greater than the blessings of the ancient mountains, than the bounty of the age-old hills." NIV

Everlasting hills? That makes them quite old. But this isn’t the only place that this phrase appears. Olam is also used to describe hills in Deut. 33:15:

Deut 33:15 And for the chief things of the ancient (qedem) mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting(olam) hills

The olam hills. As an aside, qedem is the word translated as ‘east’ in Genesis 2:8 so that verse might actually be read as “God planted a garden of old in Eden”

So how old are the olam hills? Well if one wishes to limit the time to a mere 2000 years prior to the writing of these verses, then one would have to change his concept of how long God’s eternal past is. Instead of from ‘everlasting to everlasting’, the Hebrew phrase olam olam would mean ‘from 2000 years ago to the future’. And that doesn’t sound very glorious now, does it?




One other note about Deut. 33:15. The word qedem doesn’t mean as old as olam. And a friend noted that this may be an indication that the Hebrews understood that mountains were eroded quickly and that hills were often long eroded mountains and thus are older than the mountains.

If the word merely means 2000 years, then in

1 Chron 29:10 Wherefore David blessed the LORD before all the congregation: and David said, Blessed be thou, LORD God of Israel our father, for ever and ever.[olam olam]

Means that God is blessed for only 4000 years. Yippee.

The word means a much longer time than a mere 2000 years and it is applied to both God’s covenants, the length of God’s existence(past and future) and the age of the hills.

There are two verses which use a double olam to discuss the pre-flood world. Lets look at Joshua 24:2

“And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time[olam olam], even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.”

The time frame referred to is similar to our colloquialism, an eternity ago. I would argue that this construction is indicative that the writers did not view the flood as having happened just merely 1000 years before their time.

Isaiah 64 uses the same phrase but the translator uses one olam as beginning and the other as world, a strange choice given the use elsewhere.

Isaiah 64:4 For since the beginning[olam olam] of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

But other translators have used a more consistent meaning:

The NRSV says “From ages past no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides you,”

And the American Standard says: “For from of old men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen a God besides thee, who worketh for him that waiteth for him.”


This is not referring to a short time ago. Everywhere olam olam is used, it is in reference to God’s eternity and thus the phrase, if used of the time before the flood or the creation, implies a length of time somewhat comparable to our puny conceptions of God’s own eternity.

While not a proof, the use of olam olam and its use with God’s eternity indicates to me that the flood was long long ago, long before the timeframe most Christians ascribe to it.

Here are all the verses which use olam olam.

Joshua 24:2 “And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time[olam olam], even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.”

1 Chron 29:10 Wherefore David blessed the LORD before all the congregation: and David said, Blessed be thou, LORD God of Israel our father, for ever and ever.[olam olam]

Psalm 41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting[olam olam]. Amen, and Amen

Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting[olam olam], thou art God

Psalm 103:17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting[olam olam]

Psalm 106:48 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting[olam olam]

Psalm 145:1 Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever[olam olam]


Isaiah 64:4 For since the beginning[olam olam] of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
 
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shernren

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Mmm. interesting argument. Maccie, maybe you could ask the admin to rename this thread, if it's possible? And the other thread is getting sidetracked by E.T. :p

Sojourner, there's another possibility: that Genesis 1 (and possibly part of 2) is allegorical, and the rest is factual / historical, with the Flood being a local Mesopotamian flood. Would that answer your needs?

And referring to Jesus' genealogies is a bit of a stretch. I mean, one of them is fake in the factual sense, so it's not going too far to say that both of them are fake. Look at the genealogies and you will see that they disagree with each other: so why do we need to postulate that either of them agree with actual history? The only real requirements for Jesus' ancestry are that He be a Jew of Judah from the line of David, and none of this is territory touched by Genesis 1-11.
 
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SBG

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shernren said:
And referring to Jesus' genealogies is a bit of a stretch. I mean, one of them is fake in the factual sense, so it's not going too far to say that both of them are fake. Look at the genealogies and you will see that they disagree with each other: so why do we need to postulate that either of them agree with actual history? The only real requirements for Jesus' ancestry are that He be a Jew of Judah from the line of David, and none of this is territory touched by Genesis 1-11.

What makes you believe that one of the genealogies of Jesus are fake? Are you assuming that both authors are only refering to one of the human parents of Jesus? Is it possible in any way, that the authors could be looking at Mary and Joseph's lineage?

What amazes me often is that many TEs have great deduction skills. They really do. Yet, when it comes to simple Biblical teachings, such as this, their deduction-ing skills are nowhere to be found. Also take Genesis 1 and chapter 2 as an example. TEs cannot even see nor understand simple grammar of the language to understand that past tense verbs are used. I think they actually do see this, but want to be ignorant of this to help puff up their argument.

It is amazing that when it comes to theology, TEs deduction skills are lost.
 
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shernren

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Well it's possible, but one of them couldn't possibly be completely literal. Matthew 1 has:

[BIBLE]Matthew 1:16[/BIBLE]

and Luke has:

[BIBLE]Luke 3:23[/BIBLE]

Both are on the surface genealogies of Joseph. So that suggestion requires a non-literal reading of the text.

Another interpretation is that the Matthew lineage was a lineage of royal descent whereas the Luke lineage was a lineage of natural descent. Again, another non-literal reading of the text.

This is actually an important issue. If one has to take the genealogies of the Gospels as non-literal, why shouldn't we have similar license to take the genealogies of Genesis as non-literal? And on a related aside, isn't this what YECs do to get a date of 10,000 odd years for the earth? The Ussher date gives 6000 years and as far as I know it directly refers to the Genesis chronologies, so a 10,000 years date needs some fudging of the same ...
 
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SBG

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shernren said:
Well it's possible, but one of them couldn't possibly be completely literal. Matthew 1 has:

Matthew 1:16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

and Luke has:

Luke 3:23And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Both are on the surface genealogies of Joseph. So that suggestion requires a non-literal reading of the text.

Another interpretation is that the Matthew lineage was a lineage of royal descent whereas the Luke lineage was a lineage of natural descent. Again, another non-literal reading of the text.

This is actually an important issue. If one has to take the genealogies of the Gospels as non-literal, why shouldn't we have similar license to take the genealogies of Genesis as non-literal? And on a related aside, isn't this what YECs do to get a date of 10,000 odd years for the earth? The Ussher date gives 6000 years and as far as I know it directly refers to the Genesis chronologies, so a 10,000 years date needs some fudging of the same ...

Well let's ask a simple question: Are you suggesting that the authors who wrote those geneaologies, who walked with Jesus, knew His family, were taught by Jesus, wouldn't know His lineage? They wouldn't know who Mary's father was and they wouldn't know who Joseph's father was? Is that your suggestion?

I know you and many TEs may think of "literal" as a bad word now in the creation and evolution debates; probably just as much as YECs think of myth or allegorical as a bad word in these debates, but that is not the case. It is not that you need to take a "non-literal" approach to these verses or any verse that you don't understand. You need to understand what the author was trying to convey to his readers.

There are two schools of thought about these genealogies, one is that Luke is looking at Mary's genealogy because Joseph was not the natural father, but Mary was the natural Mother - after all she gave birth to Jesus.

The second school of thought is that Matthew traces the legal descent of the house of David using only the heirs of the throne, while Luke traces the actual bloodline of Joseph to David.

The second school of thought is the most likely and would also be common since it was prophecied that Jesus was the coming King from the line of David.

It seems what you are doing is looking for a reason to take geneaologies as mythical, meaning Adam can and could be an archetype rather than a real person. When it comes to hermeneutics, this is committing a fallacy that is often referred to as the "reader gives the text its meaning". This is a popular way to interpret any piece of literature today, but this should not be the case with the Bible.

We should approach the Bible looking for what the authors wanted the reader to understand. When we look to this, we will realize that the message never changes throughout history. The implications of the message can apply differently throughout history, such as Jesus quoting Isaiah to refer to the Pharisees when Isaiah probably never had the Phariees in mind, but the conveyed meaning of the author would still apply nonetheless.

Another example would be where Paul says do not get drunk off of wine. So is it ok to get drunk off of beer instead? Or how about vodka? No, of course not, we understand that Paul was referring to anything that makes one loose control of their mind and body. So the implications can be different, such as substituting heroine in for wine.

So, when you look to the text concerning these geneaologies you need to look and see what the author wanted to convey. This will never change throughout history. Since Matthew was writing to the Jews, it seems relevant that he would trace the lineage of heirs to the throne of David since that is what the Jews were looking for.
 
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gluadys

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Sojourner<>< said:
This is not actually about linguistics and cultural influence. It is about paradigms.

Human cognition is not universally consistent between individuals. Although the scientific method is consistent, the first and second steps of the method are dependant upon cognition, which is not. These steps are, of course, observation and forming a hypothesis, which depend upon perception and ingenuity, respectively. These functions are affected by a paradigm. Let me demonstrate.


I quite agree. I already said that a person's paradigm (which will be base on personal experience and learning) will have a great influence on which scientific questions they choose to pursue and on how they construct their hypotheses.

Once the hypothesis is tested, it will also affect how they interpret the results.

What it does not affect are the results themselves or the universality of the results if they are genuine.

The results, which are themselves observations, may be slotted into a number of different theories, each one of them purporting to explain them.

The question then becomes, which theory best explains these observations--both the original ones which prompted the inquiry and those derived from testing the hypothesis.

A good example of this is the situation in the 1950s when it was still not possible to determine which of two theories (big bang or steady state) best explained the expansion of the universe. Supporters of the two theories both agreed on what the observations were (red shifting of the galaxies) and on what that implied (expansion of the universe). What they disagreed on was why the universe was expanding. There were good logical arguments for both and no evidence for either. The resolution involved finding evidence which was predicted by one theory but not predicted or explainable by the other.



When it comes to the origin of the Earth and all life on it, nobody can observe the formation of geological strata nor the process of evolution as they are assumed to have occured over billions of years by the majority of the scientific community. Because of this, a paradigm shift has much more of an effect on the community in this particular area of thought than it would on say medicine or technology, where test results can be observed within an individual's lifetime.

But one can make testable predictions about what must be in the present if a certain model of the past is correct. One model of the past will yield one set of predictions regarding observations in the present. A different model of the past will yield a different prediction of observations in the present. This is how the big bang model won out over steady state theory. It made a key prediction of an observation (Cosmic background radiation) that must be true in the present if this model of the past was true. Note, too, that the prediction was fairly specific. It not only predicted such radiation existed, but also its characteristics e.g. its temperature.

One can do exactly the same thing with geological strata and evolution.

We should also note that while a paradigm shift alters the way we look at things, it does not invalidate the true conclusions reached under the former paradigm. Rather, it gathers them up and subsumes them into the new paradigm.

I expect that is where we are currently headed in evolution. It is too solidly grounded in observed evidence to be simply falsified. But we may come to look at it through a different paradigm lens which includes all the factual material and evidence for evolution we have now, but offers still greater explanatory power that leads us to a better understanding of its mechanisms.
 
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grmorton

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shernren said:
Well it's possible, but one of them couldn't possibly be completely literal. Matthew 1 has:

Matthew 1:16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

and Luke has:

Luke 3:23And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Both are on the surface genealogies of Joseph. So that suggestion requires a non-literal reading of the text.

Another interpretation is that the Matthew lineage was a lineage of royal descent whereas the Luke lineage was a lineage of natural descent. Again, another non-literal reading of the text.

This is actually an important issue. If one has to take the genealogies of the Gospels as non-literal, why shouldn't we have similar license to take the genealogies of Genesis as non-literal? And on a related aside, isn't this what YECs do to get a date of 10,000 odd years for the earth? The Ussher date gives 6000 years and as far as I know it directly refers to the Genesis chronologies, so a 10,000 years date needs some fudging of the same ...

It would be nice if moderns would read the ancient Church Fathers on things like this. The earliest Christian historian was Eusebius. He wrote the only thing I have heard which makes sense of this issue.

Eusebius says that both are genealogies of Joseph but one follows Joseph's legal genealogy (from Matthew); the other (from Luke) follows the biological lineage. This is due to the Jewish law which says a man can marry the widow of a brother who left no offspring and raise up children for that dead childless brother. Jacob and Eli are half brothers biologically. Eusebius says that the same thing happened in the next generation. Jacob and Eli were married to the same woman. Eli had died first. Jacob marries Jesus' grandmother and raises Joseph up as the legal heir of Eli, but Joseph is the biological son of Jacob. Thus a genealogy of law is not equal to genealogy of biology.

It looks like this.





...Solomon.......................Nathan

......|............................|

...Mattan&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;Estha&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209; Melchi

...dies first.|...........|

............Jacob&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;?&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209; Eli.(dies first)

....................|

..................Joseph



Eli dies Jacob marries Eli's Widow raises Joseph as Eli's seed

according to Law

~~Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, (Grand Rapids: Baker Book

House, 1955), p.33
 
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gluadys

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grmorton said:
It would be nice if moderns would read the ancient Church Fathers on things like this. The earliest Christian historian was Eusebius. He wrote the only thing I have heard which makes sense of this issue.

Eusebius says that both are genealogies of Joseph but one follows Joseph's legal genealogy (from Matthew); the other (from Luke) follows the biological lineage. This is due to the Jewish law which says a man can marry the widow of a brother who left no offspring and raise up children for that dead childless brother. Jacob and Eli are half brothers biologically. Eusebius says that the same thing happened in the next generation. Jacob and Eli were married to the same woman. Eli had died first. Jacob marries Jesus' grandmother and raises Joseph up as the legal heir of Eli, but Joseph is the biological son of Jacob. Thus a genealogy of law is not equal to genealogy of biology.

It looks like this.





...Solomon.......................Nathan

......|............................|

...Mattan&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;Estha&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209; Melchi

...dies first.|...........|

............Jacob&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;?&#8209;&#8209;&#8209;&#8209; Eli.(dies first)

....................|

..................Joseph



Eli dies Jacob marries Eli's Widow raises Joseph as Eli's seed

according to Law

~~Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, (Grand Rapids: Baker Book

House, 1955), p.33

I agree it makes sense. But it doesn't tell me how Eusebius knew this. In particular, it doesn't tell me how Eusebius knew that Jacob married Eli's widow rather than the reverse.

It is a shame, when it comes to traditional information like this that early Christians did not keep track of their origin with the precision that early Muslims kept track of their hadith.
 
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shernren

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*blink* But SBG, I do believe in a literal Adam! :D I was just pointing out that genealogies may not be such rock-solid records as they're meant to be. I personally subscribe to the second school of thought you mentioned, partially because it shows how Jesus' biological lineage skipped the curse of Coniah in Jeremiah. However, the point I am making is that things may not always be what they appear to be in Scripture. If I read things "at face value", I would suppose that Joseph was both the son of Eli and Jacob. Hmmmmm...
 
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SBG

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shernren said:
*blink* But SBG, I do believe in a literal Adam! :D I was just pointing out that genealogies may not be such rock-solid records as they're meant to be. I personally subscribe to the second school of thought you mentioned, partially because it shows how Jesus' biological lineage skipped the curse of Coniah in Jeremiah. However, the point I am making is that things may not always be what they appear to be in Scripture. If I read things "at face value", I would suppose that Joseph was both the son of Eli and Jacob. Hmmmmm...

I agree, if we read Scripture with the intent giving the text meaning, then we would come to this conclusion. The point is, we need to read the Bible from the position of "what did the author try to convey to his readers". This message will never change with history, but the implications of the message can change with history. As per my examples I gave in my previous post.

So, if one is saying "face value" they might want to define what they mean by that. And we shouldn't define it for them by assuming what they meant. If we do, then we again are giving the meaning to what the author of the post is saying instead of trying to understand what the author meant.

Make sense?
 
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grmorton

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gluadys said:
I agree it makes sense. But it doesn't tell me how Eusebius knew this. In particular, it doesn't tell me how Eusebius knew that Jacob married Eli's widow rather than the reverse.

It is a shame, when it comes to traditional information like this that early Christians did not keep track of their origin with the precision that early Muslims kept track of their hadith.

Well, Eusebius is quoting a letter from Julius Africanus (160-240 AD) to Aristides, so this story goes way back to within 200 years of Christs death. Apparently this letter existed in Eusebius' day 260-341 AD
 
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gluadys

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grmorton said:
Well, Eusebius is quoting a letter from Julius Africanus (160-240 AD) to Aristides, so this story goes way back to within 200 years of Christs death. Apparently this letter existed in Eusebius' day 260-341 AD

That's helpful. I don't know much patristic literature. And I am not a priori opposed to recognizing the role of oral tradition. In fact, I think Protestants should pay more attention to church history without elevating it to authoritative status as Catholics do.

But I still get very curious over where these traditions come from. When people just cite a patristic source as if that settles it, I get edgy. Sounds like the medieval practice of appeal to select authorities. "If so & so says it, it must be true."
 
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shernren

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And now, SBG, we have to decide whether whoever wrote Genesis intended to tell people that God created the world in six days ("and not seven, or nine, or four, mind you - that's mortal heresy!" ;) ) ... or to tell people that God created the world, and did a far better job at it than any Babylonian, Mesopotamian or whatever-ian god could ever do.
 
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SBG

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Ok, pursue this line of reasoning using the Biblical text. Can you show how the author tried to convey God created in 9 days, as you said jokingly? Can you show how the author tried to convey that God created in billions of years?

If you think the only point to Genesis 1-3 is that God created, then why so specific on what God did each day? Why so specific how Adam and him naming the animals and such? If this didn't happen and all that was trying to be said, Genesis 1:1 would have sufficed.

I think the author actually had more to tell the readers then just saying God is the Creator of the world.
 
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Marshall Janzen

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SBG said:
If you think the only point to Genesis 1-3 is that God created, then why so specific on what God did each day?
I think there's more to it than just that God created. God created the world to be orderly. This is shown by the order in the creation days. The six days, which represent the Hebrew work week, are divided into two sets of three. Light on day 1 is filled with luminaries on day 4. The firmament and the waters it separates on day 2 are filled with fish and birds on day 5. The dry ground that appears and is covered with vegetation on day 3 is filled with land animals and humans on day 6. So, we have a symmetric arrangement between 1/4, 2/5 and 3/6.

Even if someone missed that, Genesis 1:2 makes it extremely clear what is going to happen in the account. It points out three problems that needed to be solved. The earth was formless and empty and there was darkness over the surface of the deep. These problems were solved with two days of creating light (1 and 4), two days of forming the heavens, earth and seas (2 and 3), and two days of filling them with inhabitants (5 and 6).

This is a literary form of order that is used to demonstrate the actual orderliness and goodness of creation that is beyond our full comprehension. It would take thousands of years for many of God's wonders in creation to be discovered by humans, and many more still remain to be discovered. This account demonstrates the order and goodness in ways that could always be understood, without revealing details that God gave us the ability to explore and discover ourselves.

Why so specific how Adam and him naming the animals and such?
Because naming is very important and signifies more than it generally does today. To name something is to show dominion over it and to assign it a role. (Just like how God named the heavens on day 2 and the earth on day 3.)

If this didn't happen and all that was trying to be said, Genesis 1:1 would have sufficed.
Genesis 1:1 is a good overview, but the entire account (Genesis 1:1-2:3) is a literary masterpiece.
 
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grmorton

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gluadys said:
That's helpful. I don't know much patristic literature. And I am not a priori opposed to recognizing the role of oral tradition. In fact, I think Protestants should pay more attention to church history without elevating it to authoritative status as Catholics do.

But I still get very curious over where these traditions come from. When people just cite a patristic source as if that settles it, I get edgy. Sounds like the medieval practice of appeal to select authorities. "If so & so says it, it must be true."

Patristic positions are not the final word. However, they did have access to things and documents we don't have access to. In this case, the explanation makes perfect sense, ,comes from a time close to the events and thus I find no reason not to think it is the real explanation. The 'Mary's daddy" explanation never made much sense to me.
 
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Sojourner<><

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Well, I just arrived in Florida without my computer or my notes ... :doh:
I have so much I wanted to say but unfortunately I only have 7 min left on this library computer.

Just when things were starting to get good too...

May be I can jump back into it when I arrive in Charlotte next week.
 
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