The Universe and all that is in it

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notto

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Sojourner<>< said:
The word species as used in my argument refers to the distinction between morphological species. What I'm really referring to is the biblical concept of "kind" which does not necessarily correspond with the linnaean classification system. On a case-by-case basis, "kind" could be matched with "species", sometimes with "genus" and possibly even with "family". The Biblical concept of "kind" does indicate a limitation in variation and can be used to account for missing links between kinds.

In allopatric speciation, an isolated population undergoes genetic drift through natural selection, and I've already acknowledged that it has been observed. This accounts for the evolution of the traits of an animal (horizontal variation of DNA), but does not account for the mutation between kinds of animals (vertical variation of DNA). Id est a purple chinchilla may evolve into a polka-dot chinchilla, but a chinchilla doesn't mutate into a whale.

So what 'kind' would a bird with teeth and a bony tail fall into. How about a therapod with feathers?

Still no mention of the mechanism that defines 'horizontal' and 'vertical' variation in the DNA.

You can't just make this up as you go along. What changes in the DNA would be considered 'vertical'. Please be specific. Addition of genes? Duplication of chromosomes? What?

Your classifications are meaningless unless you can tell us by what physical characteristics you are using to make the distinction.
 
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Sojourner<><

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TheBear said:
Here's what I know.

Honesty and integrity are a great witness for Christ. Moving goal-posts, intellectual dishonesty, intentional blurring of terminology, and general disengenuousness, are a horrible witness for Christ.

And here's what I know.

As soon as I begin making truthful statements based on the Word of God, I am suddenly faced with an onslaught of accusations.

Now, who's work does that sound like?
 
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TheBear

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Sojourner<>< said:
And here's what I know.

As soon as I begin making truthful statements based on the Word of God, I am suddenly faced with an onslaught of accusations.

Now, who's work does that sound like?

"Truthful" statements? Are you infallible? Is your understanding of scripture infallible?

Are you telling the rest of us that your own understanding of scripture is the infallible "truth"?
 
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Sojourner<><

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TheBear said:
"Truthful" statements? Are you infallible? Is your understanding of scripture infallible?

Are you telling the rest of us that your own understanding of scripture is the infallible "truth"?

Is this the ace you keep up your sleeve to discredit your fellow believers who do not agree with you? It's not going to work.
 
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Sojourner<><

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TheBear said:
And why do you insist on interjecting the word 'truth' into this particular topic?

The word "truth" occurs 235 times in 222 verses in the Bible. Science, although fallible, is the pursuit of truth. Truth just seems to be what everyone is looking for. Well, most people that is.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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TheBear said:
"Truthful" statements? Are you infallible? Is your understanding of scripture infallible?

Are you telling the rest of us that your own understanding of scripture is the infallible "truth"?

Sojourner<>< said:
Is this the ace you keep up your sleeve to discredit your fellow believers who do not agree with you? It's not going to work.

i don't think that the problem of denominationalism is a discrediting scheme, it is however an illustration that hermeneutics like scientific epistemology is not absolute truth but something less certain, in the case of theology, sin alone should make everyone add the cavet "as i understand it" or "Lord willing i am close to the truth" to ever claim we make.

....
 
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TheBear

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Sojourner<>< said:
Is this the ace you keep up your sleeve to discredit your fellow believers who do not agree with you? It's not going to work.

'Ace up my sleeve'? :scratch:

Is this the mindset you have....that this is all about tricks, manuvering, and aces up the sleeve? That's not a very healthy or positive approach in these discussions.

Why don't you set all that aside, and when confronted with something you don't have any reasonable explanation for, just be honest about it. :)

But this constant shifting of focus, from scientific research of our natural world, to 'truth' and spiritual matters, needs to stop now. It is wrong, it's deceptive, and you know it.
 
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Sojourner<><

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rmwilliamsll said:
i don't think that the problem of denominationalism is a discrediting scheme, it is however an illustration that hermeneutics like scientific epistemology is not absolute truth but something less certain, in the case of theology, sin alone should make everyone add the cavet "as i understand it" or "Lord willing i am close to the truth" to ever claim we make.

....

In all due respect Mr. Williams, we are instructed to preach the truth. Now, imagine if I were to change my message to: "Jesus Christ came to this earth to save us, as I understand it." Somehow that doesn't ring with much power in the unbeliever's ear.

I do try to watch myself however. But where I know that my statements can be backed by scripture, such as in the imperfection of all human institutions I state it as fact. This is very much a faith-based perspective, and I might not choose this style of argument in say a purely scientific forum, but this is Origins Theology in a Christian website - these things need to be emphasised.
 
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Sojourner<><

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TheBear said:
'Ace up my sleeve'? :scratch:

Is this the mindset you have....that this is all about tricks, manuvering, and aces up the sleeve? That's not a very healthy or positive approach in these discussions.

Why don't you set all that aside, and when confronted with something you don't have any reasonable explanation for, just be honest about it. :)

I believe my explanations were quite reasonable.

TheBear said:
But this constant shifting of focus, from scientific research of our natural world, to 'truth' and spiritual matters, needs to stop now. It is wrong, it's deceptive, and you know it.

Referring to the truth as presented by scripture is wrong and deceptive? By who's standard?
 
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Sojourner<>< said:
... we are instructed to preach the truth.

We are instructed to preach the Gospel, the good news of salvation, the spiritual truth.

But this has absolutely nothing to do with discussion of computer science, indoor plumbing, biology, geology, cosmology, improving your golf swing, cooking recepies, auto mechanics, or anything else dealing with our physical world.

STOP BEING DECIETFUL!
 
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Sojourner<><

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TheBear said:
We are instructed to preach the Gospel, the good news of salvation, the spiritual truth.

But this has absolutely nothing to do with discussion of computer science, indoor plumbing, biology, geology, cosmology, improving your golf swing, cooking recepies, auto mechanics, or anything else dealing with our physical world.

STOP BEING DECIETFUL!

Please calm down. Let's just agree to disagree ok?
I mean no offense to you personally.

I'm sorry if I offended you with that 'ace up the sleeve' question.
 
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Smidlee

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TheBear said:
Hello!
My remarks are in the context of BIO-EVOLUTION, the stuff we observe and apply in life sciences every day. ORIGINS is another topic altogether. Don't confuse the two topics. :)
I'm not confused yet there are those who tried to say ones proves the other. Natural selection works well in bacteria resistance to antibiotics for the simple reason bacteria reproduces itself at a alarming rate. So even if you kill 99% of a bacteria with antibiotics it doesn't take long for the 1% to reproduce itself back to 100%. For Humans this is not so for our reproduction rate is a lot lower; if you kill 99% of the world population is take a long time for the 60 million to bring the population back to 6 billion. This limits the ability of natural selection to wipe out all the bad mutations to bring out the good ones since it heavily relies on death to weed out all those bad mutations. So the idea man is evolving could be nothing but an illusion when actually he is devolving.
And I don't know where you're getting this, or how you arrived at this conclusion, but there is no dogma in science. Dogma involves dug-in, close-mindedness. Dogma is not questioned or overturned in the light of new evidence. If the scientific community was filled with dogma and close-mindedness, there would be no scientific advances. Period. (We'd still be blood-letting and skull drilling to cure a fever. ;))
If there no dogma proclaimed in the name of science then we wouldn't have people going around claiming man is a glorified monkey.
Science has a track record we can judge it by.....results. Things like applied bio-evolution research, brings us human bio-therapeutics, which translates to medical treatments and cures. It's that simple. :)
hey I all for research in treatments and cures yet this has nothing to do with a man evolving from a ape. (I know they say it a ape ancestor yet the so called early ape-man bones looks just like a ape.)
One more thing - This moving goal-post tactic, (the blurring and shifting of terms and definitions), has got to stop. This is intellectual dishonesty.
I agree here. I believe in research in medicine and research to improve our life but don't care wasting taxpayers money in the lame bacteria to man non-sense. If evolution just means change then I have no problem with that. I just figure you are referring to origins since we in the origins theology section.
 
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Smidlee said:
I'm not confused yet there are those who tried to say ones proves the other.

When you mix in spirutual principles and the Gospel of Christ, with the study of our physical world, you confuse the issue, intentional or not.

Natural selection works well in bacteria resistance to antibiotics for the simple reason bacteria reproduces itself at a alarming rate.

"Alarming rate"? Who's alarmed by population rate of bacteria? Don't be alarmed. This is quite natural. :)

If there no dogma proclaimed in the name of science then we wouldn't have people going around claiming man is a glorified monkey.

People can be dogmatic in their views, and be ignorant about the sciences, but science itself is not dogmatic. That would be an oxymorron. ;)

hey I all for research in treatments and cures yet this has nothing to do with a man evolving from a ape. (I know they say it a ape ancestor yet the so called early ape-man bones looks just like a ape.)

"Man evolving from ape", "Man is just a glorified monkey", "ape ancestor" - these statements and others, tell me that you have a skewed and erroneous understanding of what you're trying to argue against. Knowing this, I don't see where you and I will make much progress or headway in these discussions.

Do us all, and yourself, a favor. If you really want to discuss/debate bio-evolution, study up on the subject first.

Here's another helpful hint. Be open-minded. :)
 
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Smidlee

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TheBear said:
"Alarming rate"? Who's alarmed by population rate of bacteria? Don't be alarmed. This is quite natural. :)
How about those who had sickness because of bacteria? You know what I meant.
"Man evolving from ape", "Man is just a glorified monkey", "ape ancestor" - these statements and others, tell me that you have a skewed and erroneous view of what you're trying to argue against. Knowing this, I don't see where you and I will make much progress or headway in these discussions.
Well it's becuase all those sorry articles/stories from talkorigins,Natural Geographic and PBS I've seen/read.:)
Do us all, and yourself, a favor. If you really want to discuss/debate bio-evolution, study up on the subject first.

Here's another helpful hint. Be open-minded. :)
Why does evolutionists always assume anyone who rejects their theory is close-minded. It's must be a "ego" thing.
 
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TheBear

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Smidlee said:
How about those who had sickness because of bacteria? You know what I meant.

No. I didn't know what you meant. It wasn't making any sense at all. So, thanks for clarifying. :)

Well it's becuase all those sorry articles/stories from talkorigins,natural geographic and PBS I've seen/read.:)

I can certainly understand and empathize with your frustrations. I'm not a big fan of people relying almost exclusively on one or two sources, either. And you don't see me doing that.


Why does all evolutionist always assume anyone who rejects their theory is close-minded. It's must be a "ego" thing.

More like a reallity check. :)

Ask yourself this. Are you 100% certain that God created everything in six, 24 hour days? If you say yes, the doors are closed to any other interpretations. If you say no, that's a sign of being open-minded. :) What's your answer? :)
 
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grmorton

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Sojourner<>< said:
Henry Morris in The Genesis Record shows that theistic evolution is clearly incompatible with the Bible.

No he doesn't he doesn't understand that God told the earth to do something. He told the Earth to bring forth living creatures. Genesis 1:11



Why do I believe that the Bible teaches evolution? The issue to me is grammatical, not the Hebrew. The issue lies in what is the subject (the active agent) in the sentence.

Lets start with Genesis 1:11



And GodH430 saidH559, Let the earthH776 bringH1876 forthH1876 grassH1877, the herbH6212 yieldingH2232 seedH2233, and the fruitH6529 treeH6086 yieldingH6213 fruitH6529 after his kindH4327, whoseH834 seedH2233 is in itself, upon the earthH776: and it was soH3651.

In Hebrew this is Elohim amar erets, dasha dasha deshe eseb zara zera periy ets asa periy miyn asher zera erets ken

Elohim amar is God said. Well what did God say? He said,


God said:

“earth bring bring grass herb yielding seed fruit tree yielding fruit kind that seed earth thus so.”

That is a brute non-punctuated translation. What is the subject of the sentence God spoke? Why it is earth! The subject of the sentence is erets/earth. So what does it mean that ‘erets’ (the earth) is the subject of a sentence. Well according to an internet definition of subject it says

"The subject of a sentence is the person, place, thing, or idea that is doing or being something. You can find the subject of a sentence if you can find the verb. Ask the question, "Who or what 'verbs' or 'verbed'?" and the answer to that question is the subject." webster.commnet.edu/grammar/subjects.htm

Regardless of whether a language is head first or head-last, regardless of whether it has prepositions or postpositions, the rules of what a subject does is the same. It is the actor or the acted upon. In this case it is the actor.

OK, where is the verb of the sentence God spoke? It is bring bring. Dasha dasha. It is apparently used only 2 times in Scripture—here and in Joel 2:22.

What does Brown-Driver-Briggs say this means?

Quote Taken From:
Brown-Driver-Briggs

"to sprout, shoot, grow green
1a) (Qal) to sprout, grow green
1b) (Hiphil) to cause to sprout, cause to shoot forth"
Copyright respective of citation source.


In Joel 2:22 it is Qal.

Regardless of whether it is Qal or Hiphil in Genesis 1:11, secondary causation is not ruled out. If it is Hiphil, then it means ‘earth cause to sprout,” which clearly indicates secondary causation. If it is Qal imperative, then it means, Earth sprout vegetation, which also can be interpreted as secondary causation.

So what is the verb in Genesis 1:11? It is hiphil according to one person I checked with who is a Hebrew scholar. That actually strengthens my case. The passage means ‘Earth cause to bring bring grass...’ So the earth is apparently doing the actual causation. God ordered the earth to cause grass to come forth. I can’t think of a better way to say that evolution occurred.


I think that is why the Jewish Rabbi (and surely he knew a bit of Hebrew grammar) , Nachmanides said,

“It is possible that the name’ earth’ mentioned in the first verse already contains a hint that a force which causes things to grow should spring up from the earth, and it was from this force that the foundations of all vegetations according to their kinds emanated.” Ramban, (Nachmanides), “Commentary on the Torah,” Transl. By Rabbi Dr. Charles R. Chavel, (New York: Shiloh Publishing House, 1971), p. 40

Now that we know what the verb is, what is the subject. What is it that is bringing forth? Is it God directly? Not according to the Bible. It is the ‘erets’ which is actually doing the bringing forth regardless of whether it is Qal or Hiphil. So what does erets mean? According to Brown-Driver-Briggs, it means:

Quote Taken From:
Brown-Driver-Briggs

1) land, earth
1a) earth
1a1) whole earth (as opposed to a part)
1a2) earth (as opposed to heaven)
1a3) earth (inhabitants)
1b) land
1b1) country, territory
1b2) district, region
1b3) tribal territory
1b4) piece of ground
1b5) land of Canaan, Israel
1b6) inhabitants of land
1b7) Sheol, land without return, (under) world
1b8) city (-state)
1c) ground, surface of the earth
1c1) ground
1c2) soil
1d) (in phrases)
1d1) people of the land
1d2) space or distance of country (in measurements of distance)
1d3) level or plain country
1d4) land of the living
1d5) end(s) of the earth
1e) (almost wholly late in usage)
1e1) lands, countries
1e1a) often in contrast to Canaan

Copyright respective of citation source.


In what sense should we understand the word ‘erets’? I think we can rule out 1d and 1e since that wouldn’t make much sense in the context. Given that we are talking about the origin of the earth, the logical interpretation is 1a1 or 1a2 is probably the most likely interpretation.

This verse also illustrates the fact that there is NO verse in Scripture which says, Plants yield plants after their kind. By that I mean where plants is both the subject and object of the sentence. Grammar requires that if plants are incapable of evolution, that there should be a statement in which plants are said to reproduce plants after their kind. What the Bible actually says is:

‘earth bring forth... fruit tree yielding fruit kind’

The tree yields fruit kind. What kind of tree is it? A fruit tree. Well, fruit trees bring forth fruit kind today but that is not the same as saying ‘fruit trees reproduce fruit trees after
their kind.’

What I think we have in the YEC interpretation of Scripture is lack of attention to the details of what is subject, what is object, what a subject does and what is not said, i.e. animals reproduce animals after their kind.

Like with the geological pictures, if the YECs could point me to one verse in which it says
"animals reproduce animals after their kind" or "plants reproduce animals after their kind" one would have to give up the idea that the Bible possibly teaches evolution. But so far no one has done that. The above verse doesn't have plants as the subject of the phrase and so I don't think there is anything in scripture to rule out the concept of speciation or evolution.

Thus, I will stand by my interpretation. And the fact that dasha is hiphil in Genesis 1:11 and Qal in Joel 2:22 re enforces my case.
 
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Sojourner<><

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grmorton said:
No he doesn't he doesn't understand that God told the earth to do something. He told the Earth to bring forth living creatures. Genesis 1:11



Why do I believe that the Bible teaches evolution? The issue to me is grammatical, not the Hebrew. The issue lies in what is the subject (the active agent) in the sentence.

Lets start with Genesis 1:11



And GodH430 saidH559, Let the earthH776 bringH1876 forthH1876 grassH1877, the herbH6212 yieldingH2232 seedH2233, and the fruitH6529 treeH6086 yieldingH6213 fruitH6529 after his kindH4327, whoseH834 seedH2233 is in itself, upon the earthH776: and it was soH3651.

In Hebrew this is Elohim amar erets, dasha dasha deshe eseb zara zera periy ets asa periy miyn asher zera erets ken

Elohim amar is God said. Well what did God say? He said,


God said:

&#8220;earth bring bring grass herb yielding seed fruit tree yielding fruit kind that seed earth thus so.&#8221;

That is a brute non-punctuated translation. What is the subject of the sentence God spoke? Why it is earth! The subject of the sentence is erets/earth. So what does it mean that &#8216;erets&#8217; (the earth) is the subject of a sentence. Well according to an internet definition of subject it says

"The subject of a sentence is the person, place, thing, or idea that is doing or being something. You can find the subject of a sentence if you can find the verb. Ask the question, "Who or what 'verbs' or 'verbed'?" and the answer to that question is the subject." webster.commnet.edu/grammar/subjects.htm

Regardless of whether a language is head first or head-last, regardless of whether it has prepositions or postpositions, the rules of what a subject does is the same. It is the actor or the acted upon. In this case it is the actor.

OK, where is the verb of the sentence God spoke? It is bring bring. Dasha dasha. It is apparently used only 2 times in Scripture&#8212;here and in Joel 2:22.

What does Brown-Driver-Briggs say this means?

Quote Taken From:
Brown-Driver-Briggs

"to sprout, shoot, grow green
1a) (Qal) to sprout, grow green
1b) (Hiphil) to cause to sprout, cause to shoot forth"
Copyright respective of citation source.


In Joel 2:22 it is Qal.

Regardless of whether it is Qal or Hiphil in Genesis 1:11, secondary causation is not ruled out. If it is Hiphil, then it means &#8216;earth cause to sprout,&#8221; which clearly indicates secondary causation. If it is Qal imperative, then it means, Earth sprout vegetation, which also can be interpreted as secondary causation.

So what is the verb in Genesis 1:11? It is hiphil according to one person I checked with who is a Hebrew scholar. That actually strengthens my case. The passage means &#8216;Earth cause to bring bring grass...&#8217; So the earth is apparently doing the actual causation. God ordered the earth to cause grass to come forth. I can&#8217;t think of a better way to say that evolution occurred.


I think that is why the Jewish Rabbi (and surely he knew a bit of Hebrew grammar) , Nachmanides said,

&#8220;It is possible that the name&#8217; earth&#8217; mentioned in the first verse already contains a hint that a force which causes things to grow should spring up from the earth, and it was from this force that the foundations of all vegetations according to their kinds emanated.&#8221; Ramban, (Nachmanides), &#8220;Commentary on the Torah,&#8221; Transl. By Rabbi Dr. Charles R. Chavel, (New York: Shiloh Publishing House, 1971), p. 40

Now that we know what the verb is, what is the subject. What is it that is bringing forth? Is it God directly? Not according to the Bible. It is the &#8216;erets&#8217; which is actually doing the bringing forth regardless of whether it is Qal or Hiphil. So what does erets mean? According to Brown-Driver-Briggs, it means:

Quote Taken From:
Brown-Driver-Briggs

1) land, earth
1a) earth
1a1) whole earth (as opposed to a part)
1a2) earth (as opposed to heaven)
1a3) earth (inhabitants)
1b) land
1b1) country, territory
1b2) district, region
1b3) tribal territory
1b4) piece of ground
1b5) land of Canaan, Israel
1b6) inhabitants of land
1b7) Sheol, land without return, (under) world
1b8) city (-state)
1c) ground, surface of the earth
1c1) ground
1c2) soil
1d) (in phrases)
1d1) people of the land
1d2) space or distance of country (in measurements of distance)
1d3) level or plain country
1d4) land of the living
1d5) end(s) of the earth
1e) (almost wholly late in usage)
1e1) lands, countries
1e1a) often in contrast to Canaan

Copyright respective of citation source.


In what sense should we understand the word &#8216;erets&#8217;? I think we can rule out 1d and 1e since that wouldn&#8217;t make much sense in the context. Given that we are talking about the origin of the earth, the logical interpretation is 1a1 or 1a2 is probably the most likely interpretation.

This verse also illustrates the fact that there is NO verse in Scripture which says, Plants yield plants after their kind. By that I mean where plants is both the subject and object of the sentence. Grammar requires that if plants are incapable of evolution, that there should be a statement in which plants are said to reproduce plants after their kind. What the Bible actually says is:

&#8216;earth bring forth... fruit tree yielding fruit kind&#8217;

The tree yields fruit kind. What kind of tree is it? A fruit tree. Well, fruit trees bring forth fruit kind today but that is not the same as saying &#8216;fruit trees reproduce fruit trees after
their kind.&#8217;

What I think we have in the YEC interpretation of Scripture is lack of attention to the details of what is subject, what is object, what a subject does and what is not said, i.e. animals reproduce animals after their kind.

Like with the geological pictures, if the YECs could point me to one verse in which it says
"animals reproduce animals after their kind" or "plants reproduce animals after their kind" one would have to give up the idea that the Bible possibly teaches evolution. But so far no one has done that. The above verse doesn't have plants as the subject of the phrase and so I don't think there is anything in scripture to rule out the concept of speciation or evolution.

Thus, I will stand by my interpretation. And the fact that dasha is hiphil in Genesis 1:11 and Qal in Joel 2:22 re enforces my case.

This is an interesting argument.

Even if evolution is a possible interpretation for the action performed by the earth in the creative process of plant life, the major problem is that this conflicts with the apparent chronological structure of the Bible.

If we assume that this is correct, it would mean that a massive amount of time would be required for the formation of life on this earth as we know it.
This would also mean that the meaning of the word day (Hebrew "yowm", H03117) is not a literal 24 hour period, since plant life didn't appear until the third day.

There are only three possible scenarios that I can think of based on your argument:

1) "Yowm" means "age" and the length of time is undefined, but uniform. We know that Adam was created on the sixth day. This means that he would have existed for more than 1 and a portion of an "age". However, this is unfeasible since Adam lived only 930 years as recorded in Genesis 5:5 and would not allow for the billions or even millions of years required for evolution to take place.

2) "Yowm" means "age" with an undefined and inconsistent length of time. This option is incompatible with the pattern of the concluding statement of each of the first six days: "And the evening and the morning was the nth day" which adds an element of uniformity to the meaning of "day". Aside from this, it would be illogical for the same word to be used for different amounts of time.

3) Chapters 1-11 are completely allegorical. This is an impossible scenario as the NT quotes Genesis 4 times as literal fact - twice of Jesus in Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-8 making reference to the creation of male and female in Genesis 1:27 and marriage in 2:24. This would also upset the entire plan of redemption and core message of the Bible.

In my own opinion, I would have to say that these problems outweigh eisegesis based on verb tense rather than definition.
 
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