The Two Kingdoms: Of God & Of Man

[ZiSunka]

big stick vs soft pillow

where best have you witnessed the middle ground? I think I know what it would look like, but as you said, it seems much of "Chistian" is going to church and doing "churchy" things...probably why I've not been a "member" for so many years...

It's hard to find the middle ground in American Christianity today, and maybe even in global Christianity. We've gotten intrenched in meaningless things and have given up important things like service to other people, leadership in morality and love, giving of ourselves for the benefit of the Mission. Those things don't belong to the left or the right, they belong to God.

I used to go to a lot of food pantries and I saw a lot of practicing the middle ground there. Witnessing by helping, asking people if they wanted prayer for their situation (they almost always were happy to have someone even ask), giving the kind of love we have been commanded to ask.

In another situation, I saw people witnessing to the rich by showing them the happiness of a life unfettered by possessions. Rich people hate the stuff they have, but they cling to it because it's the only thing they have to give meaning to their lives. I've seen people help them understand that owning things doesn't bring security or happiness. I've seen them lead the rich to the Lord by helping them donate the excess to people who need it more.

I've done it by offering to pray for people in line at the grocery store. They had things they couldn't deal with and they just needed someone to come along side them and go to the Lord on their behalf.

There is a lot of middle ground--right in front of you!

 

[Danfrey]

Out here it's called community outreach. eg our churh runs a 'breakfast club' at the primary school providing a simple breakfast of juice, toast & fruit for the kids who for one reason or another don't get breakfast at home. I do have some issues with what has become known as the 'social church'. I have seen it abused & I have seen chuches so fixated on fixing social problems they've forgotten who is their motivation for their actions.

We seem to have the opposite problem of churches trying to fix social problems in this country. The church isn't doing enough to address social problems. I am not talking about social problems as in voting for "rightous laws", I am speaking of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and visiting the prisoner. There are those who participate in these types of activities, but they are the minority. It seems we have forgotten Matthew 25. When activities like this happen, they often have strings attached. I will do this x amount of times and if this person doesn't say the sinners prayer I am out of here. If Jesus treated us this way, I would have been out of second chances a long time ago.

My daughter and I have been discussing the idea of a soup kitchen in Delaware. We are moving to Dover because she lives there with her mother part of the time. Opening a soup kitchen there means a lot to us because Dover is the town where we were homeless. It was only for about a month, but it was enough to realize there isn't much available to people who don't have housing. The concept is this, we would rent a building suitable for feeding 50 or so with kitchen facilities. We would maintain the building. Then I would approach the local churches and ask them to commit to one day a month of manning the soup kitchen and providing the food. There are enough churches in the area to cover every day of the month. This would provide a place that someone could get a hot meal every day. Many will say that people will abuse this, but it really doesn't matter to me. I understand Jesus to be saying "feed the hungry" not "feed the hungry if they deserve it"

Anyway, I am off on a tangent here, hopefully I haven't hijacked the thread too much. Jehane, it is encouraging to hear about the breakfast club. It has boosted my motivation level on this idea.

 

[tulc]

My daughter and I have been discussing the idea of a soup kitchen in Delaware. We are moving to Dover because she lives there with her mother part of the time. Opening a soup kitchen there means a lot to us because Dover is the town where we were homeless. It was only for about a month, but it was enough to realize there isn't much available to people who don't have housing. The concept is this, we would rent a building suitable for feeding 50 or so with kitchen facilities. We would maintain the building. Then I would approach the local churches and ask them to commit to one day a month of manning the soup kitchen and providing the food. There are enough churches in the area to cover every day of the month. This would provide a place that someone could get a hot meal every day. Many will say that people will abuse this, but it really doesn't matter to me. I understand Jesus to be saying "feed the hungry" not "feed the hungry if they deserve it"

Anyway, I am off on a tangent here, hopefully I haven't hijacked the thread too much. Jehane, it is encouraging to hear about the breakfast club. It has boosted my motivation level on this idea.

..quite possibly one of the most Christian posts I've read on CF.
tulc(let us know if we can help?)

 

[Danfrey]

..quite possibly one of the most Christian posts I've read on CF.
tulc(let us know if we can help?)

Actually, you can all help by keeping us in prayer. As we look for housing, I would love to find a warehouse or something similar with an apartment above it. This would allow us to maximize our rent money for housing and ministry. I interviewed for a job last Thursday that would allow us to have the extra rent money needed for something like this.

 

[Jehane]

Actually, you can all help by keeping us in prayer. As we look for housing, I would love to find a warehouse or something similar with an apartment above it. This would allow us to maximize our rent money for housing and ministry. I interviewed for a job last Thursday that would allow us to have the extra rent money needed for something like this.

I'm madly impressed. This sounds great.

 

[artrx]

People aren't as interested in hearing arguments or sugary words as they are in seeing God's people live and act like God's people.

Our church has ministries with local food banks, clothing and job placement facilities for those homeless or struggling, Habitat for Humanity, and the chuch building provides a place for local ESOL groups, tutoring and AA groups. However, it tends to be the same group of people all the time.
Our rector offered our chuch facilities as part of a county program last winter to house the homeless for the coldest months (the county facilities were overflowing.) Numerous chuches in the area took the overflow for 1 week each. It required a large number of volunteers and was a whole chuch effort. Afterwards, it was amazing how many people were touched by and educated on the plight of the homeless in our area. It opened many peoples eyes and hearts to the need for thier service. Some people just seem to live with blinders on when it comes to social/economic/cultural struggles, especially if they have had very cushy lives.

 

[ZiSunka]

I will definitely be praying for this potential ministry for you Danfrey!

 

[Danfrey]

Our church has ministries with local food banks, clothing and job placement facilities for those homeless or struggling, Habitat for Humanity, and the chuch building provides a place for local ESOL groups, tutoring and AA groups. However, it tends to be the same group of people all the time.
Our rector offered our chuch facilities as part of a county program last winter to house the homeless for the coldest months (the county facilities were overflowing.) Numerous chuches in the area took the overflow for 1 week each. It required a large number of volunteers and was a whole chuch effort. Afterwards, it was amazing how many people were touched by and educated on the plight of the homeless in our area. It opened many peoples eyes and hearts to the need for thier service. Some people just seem to live with blinders on when it comes to social/economic/cultural struggles, especially if they have had very cushy lives.

It is easy to have blinders. I walk with them over my eyes most of the time. I recently watched a movie on Mother Teresa and cryed through most of it. This was a woman after Jesus' heart. Sometimes I spend too much time think about theology and not enough time doing what Jesus taught.

 

[MadFingerPainter]

Churches as institutions don't seem interested in anything but adding numbers to the membership.

It's left up to individuals and parachurch organizations to do those things.

i agree with the first statement in this quote. they don't seem to be as interested in our spiritual well being as they are in filling the seats. it is getting increasingly difficult to find good services with good sermons to take home and think on until the next Sunday.

 

[ZiSunka]

i agree with the first statement in this quote. they don't seem to be as interested in our spiritual well being as they are in filling the seats. it is getting increasingly difficult to find good services with good sermons to take home and think on until the next Sunday.

I've started going to saturday services at a local church because there is more meat and potatoes to it than the sunday services. Sunday is all about numbers and taping for the radio program. They have even stopped the service and done some things over because they didn't get it taped properly or the sound was bad or the timing was off! In sunday worship! Once they even cut the preacher off in the middle of his sermon because the technician didn't like the sound levels, he thought the preacher was coming off too tinny!

But saturday is all about worship, Bible reading, a great sermon that stays with me, and strangely seems to be tying in with a mennonite devotional I am doing right now! Even though it's not a mennonite church!

They even showed a great 15 minute video about the harvest and how it related to Jesus's words in Samaria!

The pastor's preaching style is completely different on saturdays. He isn't being recorded, so he isn't as bombastic and he's not trying to be clever. He's just teaching and preaching.

I think I'm in love--with saturday service!

 

[MadFingerPainter]

where i go to church we don't have saturday service. and right now there are only 12 members attending. the others have left. they've gone off to bigger and better churches i guess. it feels like the main concern now is filling seats. the services are almost kinda depressing now. but this is my home church and i feel bad about wanting to leave too. but i don't feel i'm getting fed anything useful anymore. but i stay because i love these people. they took me in and have been my church family. i'm just kinda waiting to see if they will close. there is only one other church i feel even remotely comfortable in here and it is not the denomination that i am. it's just very awkward. the decent churches are mostly out of town a good distance. with gas and an unreliable vehicle...some of us are subject to what's here or not going at all.

 

[ZiSunka]

If you all tithed, 12 families could support a church!

 

[MrJim]

If you all tithed, 12 families could support a church!

Think of it beyond tithing---12 families is a large group. The Kingdom of God is bigger than just having some building and a hired preacher. There are resources available, particularly through the home churches, that give alternative ways to "do" church that many don't think of. And often meeting places can be gotten for little $. I know of several churches that have other congregations use their facilities on Saturdays or Sunday evenings--the ABC I'm at lets a Spanish group use the building on Sunday evenings since there is no evening service.

 

[Jehane]

I guess you guys are as lucky as we are & can pick & choose amongst Christian radio or t.v. Due to circumstances beyond our church's control the preaching is occassionaly a little dodgy so we supplement all week by listening to our favourite preachers on the radio. This gives us the meat we crave & leaves us free to fellowship & worship with our church family. I'm afraid it's only going to get worse. We seem to have reached the 'itching ears' stage & too many prachers are just scratching the people's itch. I don't do well when I think I'm being patronised! I'd rather be told I'm wrong & what I should be doing about it (in a loving way or I go to pieces) than just patted on the head & told it's o.k; God understands. I'm sure he does but that doesn't teach me HOW to be holy as He asks!

 

[ZiSunka]

Think of it beyond tithing---12 families is a large group. The Kingdom of God is bigger than just having some building and a hired preacher. There are resources available, particularly through the home churches, that give alternative ways to "do" church that many don't think of. And often meeting places can be gotten for little $. I know of several churches that have other congregations use their facilities on Saturdays or Sunday evenings--the ABC I'm at lets a Spanish group use the building on Sunday evenings since there is no evening service.

Very true! When I said "church," I meant the spiritual body of believers that meets together for worship and edification, not a building or a paid pastor.

There are many places to meet besides a meeting house set aside for sunday services. In fact, one of my biggest pet peeves is that meeting houses aren't used constantly throughout the week. I get ticked that they are empty and dark on weekdays and weekends and evenings. It would be great if they could throw their doors open wide for a variety of things that could benefit the community and make the church an essential part of the landscape.

Why don't churches share a meeting house? Why do they all have to meet in separate buildings at the same time on the same day of the week? Why can't they contain branches of the library or hold AA meetings or be the place where the have town meetings? Why do we have to have multimillion dollar buildings that gather dust except at 10 AM on sundays??

Furthermore, I know churches that meet at tne YMCA, or at a meeting room in a hospital and I even know one church that meets at the local funeral home every sunday morning.

Building-shmuilding. You all can come and have church in my basement if you want!

 

[artrx]

It is easy to have blinders.... Sometimes I spend too much time think about theology and not enough time doing what Jesus taught.

Soooo true. I can relate. Sometimes it's out of fear of the unknown or anxiety, sometimes it's just laziness. Taking those first steps in faith can be difficult. That's why we need each other, with the grace of God.

 

[MadFingerPainter]

i'm not talking 12 families. i'm talking 12 people.

 

[MrJim]

i'm not talking 12 families. i'm talking 12 people.

Ahh, now that sounds like House Church size! Twelve people gathered together with Christ in the midst...now where have I heard that before

Seems like those 12 went out and did some mighty things...

 

[MadFingerPainter]

I'm not sure what 10 elderly people and two middle aged kids can do but...I suppose anything is possible. ~Giggles~

 

[tulc]

I'm not sure what 10 elderly people and two middle aged kids can do but...I suppose anything is possible. ~Giggles~

Well Abraham was just ONE elderly guy and look what he accomplished!





Any of your older couples looking to have kids?
tulc( )