The Two Kingdoms: Of God & Of Man

[MrJim]

Maybe that is some of the 2 kingdoms overlapping. The kingdom of man is all about possessions. If we build our religious institutions & edifices "to God" and then act like the world regarding them, then maybe it's failed.

In my studies and "flirting" with the Roman Catholic Church, the one thing I could not get away from was the wealth and the power. While I had great admiration for some of the Franciscans, there was still St. Peter's and all the $$ while many local parishes suffer for support and ministries looking for $$ to put a tin roof over a little church in Ghana someplace. RCC sure ain't the only guilty ones by a long stretch but it's an easy example. Whenever I see a plaque in a church for some donation given in honor/memory for something (there's even one in our little church for the sofa & chairs in the lobby) I just sorta sigh.

 

[ZiSunka]

Maybe that is some of the 2 kingdoms overlapping. The kingdom of man is all about possessions. If we build our religious institutions & edifices "to God" and then act like the world regarding them, then maybe it's failed.

In my studies and "flirting" with the Roman Catholic Church, the one thing I could not get away from was the wealth and the power. While I had great admiration for some of the Franciscans, there was still St. Peter's and all the $$ while many local parishes suffer for support and ministries looking for $$ to put a tin roof over a little church in Ghana someplace. RCC sure ain't the only guilty ones by a long stretch but it's an easy example. Whenever I see a plaque in a church for some donation given in honor/memory for something (there's even one in our little church for the sofa & chairs in the lobby) I just sorta sigh.

Someone once told me that they admire the Catholic church because it doesn't do active fundraising, but is supported by the willing gifts of the members worldwide. I couldn't figure out what catholic church they were talking about. The ones around here run constant fundraisers from bingo to cavatelli dinners to fish fries to rummage sales to sales of rosaries and holy medals right in the santuary.

Even some anabaptist churches are guilty of using fundraisers like car washes, book sales (selling ungodly books right next to Bibles, by the way), ice cream socials where they charge non-members for the ice cream, etc.

One church I used to go to had a better idea. They had a box in the hallway and if there was a special need, people could voluntarily put a little money, as much or little as they decided, into the box anonymously whenever they got the chance.

 

[MrJim]

I never cared for the gimmicks. If there is a need tell me/us what it is and we'll give if able. But don't "sell" me something...

 

[Jehane]

Two things about the Catholic church I truely admire: Firstly out here their churches are never ever locked. They are always open for people to come in, pray, light a candle. Secondly, no matter how small the parish, or how few turn up for worship there is always someone comes to lead the service & I particularly admire that because our church has only very recently been able to provide that & then only by training its lay people to lead. Secondly we've been on the island nearly 20 years & in that time the charismatics have come & gone, come & gone, come & gone, the Anglicans send someone over once a month - if they're lucky. They're trying to get that congregation to travel to the closest mainland church but as it's mostly oldies if they shut down they won't go anywhere & absolutely no other denomination wants to know about us, yet there are plenty of Christians out here. This in a country where parishes have traditionally been thousands of square miles with only a few farming families scattered over all that distance. Sometimes the Catholic church appears quite schizophrenic given that the other side of the coin is huge amounts of both wealth & power.

 

[ZiSunka]

Firstly out here their churches are never ever locked.

Must be different in Australia. Around here, they are locked unless they are getting ready to have a service. Around here, only a few churches are unlocked all the time.

Secondly, no matter how small the parish, or how few turn up for worship there is always someone comes to lead the service

Around here, if a church isn't profitable, they cancel services and if that doesn't solve the money problems, they close the church. In the last 10 years, they've closed about 17 churches in this diocese alone. On Pine Ridge reservation in SD, they closed all the churches but a handful and some people have to drive as far as 60 miles to attend a mass.

 

[Jehane]

Wow! That is so scarey but I think we are heading that way too. Everyone wants to make money & there are rates, electricity, water on any property so if the congregation gets too small they just close them down - though I've never heard of the Catholics doing it.. I know of one country community who had their building shut down because there were barely a handful, all in their 70's & 80's &, without getting into a debate over the idea of hallowed ground, they wanted to celebrate Easter as a congregation in their holy place - the local church. The powers that be wouldn't make an exception so these poor souls each took a chair from home & sat under their building celebrating Easter as best they might. I hate that. The old are too vunerable & I thought that was plain cruel & definitely not Christlike.

 

[Danfrey]

The two kingdoms we speak of have nothing to do with financial prosperity, though you will find that those that are part of the kingdom of heaven are quicker to give up what they have to someone in need. There are just as many poor people in the world who are not part of the kingdom of heaven as there are rich.

As far as predestination, you will not find a welcome ear for it here. You will find that most Anabaptists hold to the view that everyone has an opportunity to know Christ.

 

[vespasia]

Very simplistic way of putting this but;

The kingdoms built by man are merely man made constructions, friable falliable and all will fall.
Nothing we put together for ourselves lasts or matters in the sight of God.
He cares about our hearts, who we are in His eyes.
The Kingdom of God is Eternal.

Everything else is transitory ash.

 

[vespasia]

Brothers in Christ.
You are being unintentionally harsh with one who genuinely does not comprehend. Could you simplfy your teaching so that it can be understood by all.

Jehane,
Would you like to open a thread in which the women can talk one to another?

 

[mesue]

Closed for staff review
signed,
You friendly neighborhood mod

 

[mesue]

Thread reopened.
Please adhere to the rules.
Go here for a refresher
http://www.christianforums.com/faq.php?faq=rules

Colossians 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

 

[MrJim]

I read through but don't know what the mod thing is all about...

 

[mesue]

I read through but don't know what the mod thing is all about...

Then, my job is done

 

[MrJim]

Then, my job is done

okee dokee

 

[ZiSunka]

Then, my job is done

And you did a GREAT job! Thanks!!

 

[mesue]

And you did a GREAT job! Thanks!!

aww, schucks!
Thanks

 

[MrJim]

...um, ok moving on...


In looking at the two kingdoms it at first seems like we have to opposing forces. It can be looked at that way, since it can be weighed out as good vs. evil I suppose. But there is another way to look at it.

A quote from a book I'm reading: "...a community expresses God's nature is born..." and "...a community that expresses God's life and nature in the city." and "There is a community expressing Jesus Christ in Antioch." <<The Untold Story of the New Testament Church by Frank Viola>>

I guess one direction is the confrontation view--I think this is best expressed by the militant church/political right wing but also by the separatists.

The other direction is the hugging view--that the church can accept all inspite of their sin and beliefs. Regardless of views of sexuality or life or morals it's ok we accept you, sometimes to the point of condoning. Obviously a liberal viewpoint.

I accept neither view as being complete. The kingdom of God is something separate from the world, yet in "expressing God's nature" it cannot hardly be separatist but cannot by it's own nature be condoning sin either.

The path of this Christian journey will encompass aspects of both but will be different from both of those above "Left/Right" views. Just how this works out is where we tend to fall apart. And because the journey is often lonely we tend to side with one or the other simply for fellowship...

 

[ZiSunka]

I think there is another way...How about just being Jesus's hands, feet and voice in this time and place. There is middle ground between being a big stick or a soft pillow.

People aren't as interested in hearing arguments or sugary words as they are in seeing God's people live and act like God's people.

One of the things Christian converts to Islam say induced them to convert was that Islam is a lifestyle, a total way of life, while Christianity seems to be just going to church on sunday mornings. Maybe if we, God's people, acted and lived like God's peculiar people, they would see we have a distinctive lifestyle and a close relationship with God, too.

 

[MrJim]

There is middle ground between being a big stick or a soft pillow.

People aren't as interested in hearing arguments or sugary words as they are in seeing God's people live and act like God's people.

big stick vs soft pillow

where best have you witnessed the middle ground? I think I know what it would look like, but as you said, it seems much of "Chistian" is going to church and doing "churchy" things...probably why I've not been a "member" for so many years...

 

[Jehane]

Out here it's called community outreach. eg our churh runs a 'breakfast club' at the primary school providing a simple breakfast of juice, toast & fruit for the kids who for one reason or another don't get breakfast at home. I do have some issues with what has become known as the 'social church'. I have seen it abused & I have seen chuches so fixated on fixing social problems they've forgotten who is their motivation for their actions.