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The Two Baptisms of the New Testament - Water and the Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Saint Steven, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Have you had both baptisms?
    No, it's not a denominational thing. Available to all who ask.

    Luke 11:13
    If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children,
    how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

    John the Baptist said:

    Matthew 3:11
    “I baptize you with water for repentance.
    But after me comes one who is more powerful than I,
    whose sandals I am not worthy to carry.
    He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    These are the two baptisms.
    1) Water baptism.
    2) The baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    In the book of Acts we read this.

    Acts 8:14-17
    When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that
    Samaria had accepted the word of God,
    they sent Peter and John to Samaria.
    15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers
    there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
    16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them;
    they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
    17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

    Four things to note:
    1)
    Those who accepted the word of God in Samaria were new believers.
    2) They had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (water baptism)
    3) They had not yet "received" the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit
    had not yet come "on" any of them.
    4) Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
     
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  2. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    All believers have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13 says so:

    1 Cor 12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."

    If anyone is not baptized in the Spirit they are not part of the body of Christ.

    Acts 8 was a unique event in Church history. It was the first time outside of Judaism that anyone had become Christians and the Spirit was withheld until the apostles arrived so that they could witness that the hated Samaritans were not second-class citizens but full members of the church. We cannot make a single unique event in history the defacto pattern for today. It would contradict many other scripture which make it clear that everyone receives the Holy Spirit at conversion:

    Rom 8:9 "And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."

    Gal 3:2 "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?"

    Acts 2:38 "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

    Eph 1:13 "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit"

    etc
     
  3. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Lets say you are sitting in a tub of water. The water represents the Holy Spirit and you represent your spirit. You are in the Holy Spirit as a believer in Christ. But you become Baptized in the Holy Spirit as you become fully immersed in the Spirit. How does this happen? By walking in the Spirit we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The more we resist the flesh and walk in love, the more fully immersed (Baptized) in the Spirit we become.
     
  4. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    You are not differentiating between the indwelling Holy Spirit and the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit "in" and the Spirit "on".

    And no, Acts chapter eight was not unique, it was the pattern.
    Believers were baptized with water and then received the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
    Not always in that order. See Peter at the house of Cornelius.

    And also Acts nineteen, the situation in Ephesus with the disciples of John the Baptist. They needed to be baptized in the name of Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit baptism.

    Saul of Tarsus also received the baptism of the Holy Spirit before he was baptized in water.

    Add acts chapter two and you have four instances that show the pattern.
     
  5. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I know we don't usually agree on anything (LOL) but I do agree about Samaria. The Holy Spirit had only fallen at Jerusalem. Samaria, the 10 other tribes of Israel, represented the rest of the world outside the Jews' holy city, Jerusalem. Then the next separate act of the Holy Spirit in the progression was falling on the Gentile, Cornelius - the first of many.

    It is true that we are not Christians unless we have the Holy Spirit. However, I do find in scripture that there are more than one fillings of the Holy Spirit in individuals. The first is the one you are speaking of for power over sin Acts 2, but then there is another for boldness to minister and having the gifts of the Holy Spirit in Acts 4.

    Pentecostals generally call the second filling as the baptism of the Holy Spirit, because only with it are the supernatural gifts, but I call the first, the baptism, but don't mind the Pentecostal's understanding. At least, they see there are two different fillings, in fact - many.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  6. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Thanks Dave, and welcome.

    Does that indicate to you a single experience, a second experience, or ???
     
  7. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    1 Cor 12:13 is clear. All believers are baptized in the Spirit. It is what unites them to the body of Christ. If you are not baptized in the Spirit you are not part of Christ.

    If we are indwelt by the Spirit at conversion as you rightly say then Act 8 is clearly not the pattern for today:

    Acts 8:14 "Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized [e]in the name of the Lord Jesus."

    The pattern is we are baptized in the Spirit at conversion, then we are baptized in water as an outward symbol of that inner reality.
     
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  8. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    But there are more than one filling of the Holy Spirit.
     
  9. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    One thing is sad. There are many who call themselves Christians who have never repented. Repentance is the prerequisite to receiving the Holy Spirit and belonging to Christ at all. This is why there are so many "Christians" who still have no power over sin. They just want to use Jesus as their savior from hell, but don't love and fear Him enough to make Him, Lord. Jesus will say to them - "I never knew you."
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  10. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, people can be "filled" with the Spirit multiple times. Peter was filled at Pentecost, then again when in front of the Sanhedrin. Likewise the apostles in Acts 4:31, the deacons in Acts 6:3, Stephen in Acts 7:55, Paul in Acts 13:9, etc.
     
  11. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    That adds another dimension to this. refilling and rebaptism in the Holy Spirit. A repentant believer can be filled again. (we are leaky vessels anyway) And we can also receive a fresh baptism in the Holy Spirit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  12. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Yes, and when Paul told them to seek the higher gifts, that would require another filling, and so on.
     
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  13. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I appreciate the point you are trying to make but I don't think there are literally two "baptisms." First of all, even if there were, they would be an event(s) that happened at the same time seeing the Spirit seems to be poured on those who enter the water. But.. that aside, the word baptism just means "to immerse." Are you literally "immersed" into the Holy Spirit? No... the word is being used idiomatically, in this case, to depict the depth in terms of relationship building that God is doing between Himself and those who are His.
     
  14. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    (you've got mail)
     
  15. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I don't know if it is literal, but it sure feels like it.
     
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  16. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

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    There were no new gifts given to the disciples on their subsequent fillings. What characterizes being filled with the Spirit is joy and boldness.
     
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  17. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Welcome, Ken.

    So, what was John the Baptist referring to? And what do you make of this?

    Acts 1:4-5
    On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command:
    “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.
    5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
     
  18. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am not saying that getting the Holy Spirit isn't literal, OF COURSE IT IS sis. :) I am saying the word "baptism" when used with the Holy Spirit is being used idiomatically because we are not literally immersed into the Spirit. We are GIVEN the Spirit... he falls on us we don't fall into him (so to speak). :)
     
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  19. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Steve, the word means to immerse... are you immersed, dunked into the Spirit or is the Spirit GIVEN to you by God as a gift and as an earnest (2 Cor. 1:22 and 2 Cor. 5:5) in order to guide, teach and comfort until we are perfected? That's my point... the idea of being baptized with or by the Holy Spirit is just an idiomatic phrase. We literally get the Spirit, but it is GIVEN to us, we are not immersed into it. So, John used that word, idiomatically, to make a point about what was about to occur. :)
     
  20. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And might I add that when we are immersed in water... we are covered entirely... we are encased by the water, right? Enveloped is maybe a better word. So while we are not immersed into the Spirit, we ARE enveloped by it, and that is why the word immerse/baptize is being used as it is by John in that verse, Steve.
     
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