The Two Baptisms of the New Testament - Water and the Holy Spirit

Saint Steven

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I am not saying that getting the Holy Spirit isn't literal, OF COURSE IT IS sis. :) I am saying the word "baptism" when used with the Holy Spirit is being used idiomatically because we are not literally immersed into the Spirit. We are GIVEN the Spirit... he falls on us we don't fall into him (so to speak). :)
I make a distinction in scripture between Spirit "in" and Spirit "on". For instance, the Spirit was "on" the OT prophets when they manifested a gift of prophecy. Same Spirit, same gift, same power. But "on" an individual in a moment in time.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I am not saying that getting the Holy Spirit isn't literal, OF COURSE IT IS sis. :) I am saying the word "baptism" when used with the Holy Spirit is being used idiomatically because we are not literally immersed into the Spirit. We are GIVEN the Spirit... he falls on us we don't fall into him (so to speak). :)

All I know I wasn't just sprinkled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit poured over me and went from the top of my head to the souls of my feet, and from the outside to the inside. I might as well have been a sponge.
 
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Saint Steven

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And might I add that when we are immersed in water... we are covered entirely... we are encased by the water, right? Enveloped is maybe a better word. So while we are not immersed into the Spirit, we ARE enveloped by it, and that is why the word immerse/baptize is being used as it is by John in that verse, Steve.
Thanks, brother.
What did the disciples have before Pentecost? What did they have after?
 
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1stcenturylady

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And might I add that when we are immersed in water... we are covered entirely... we are encased by the water, right? Enveloped is maybe a better word. So while we are not immersed into the Spirit, we ARE enveloped by it, and that is why the word immerse/baptize is being used as it is by John in that verse, Steve.

Water is only on the outside, but the Spirit reaches into our depths.
 
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Ken Rank

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I make a distinction in scripture between Spirit "in" and Spirit "on". For instance, the Spirit was "on" the OT prophets when they manifested a gift of prophecy. Same Spirit, same gift, same power. But "on" an individual in a moment in time.
When you have a moment, please share with me a verse for each example... one where it is in and one with on. Thanks.
 
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Ken Rank

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All I know I wasn't just sprinkled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit poured over me and went from the top of my head to the souls of my feet, and from the outside to the inside. I might as well have been a sponge.
This is so hard sometimes because we get so attached to our doctrines that we can't even have a discussion without trying to defend ourselves. I am NOT taking anything away from your experiences and I don't doubt them AT ALL. What I am saying is... there wasn't a pool of spirit that you were dunked in. Not being literal doesn't mean it isn't literal! :) While there is no pool of Spirit that you were immersed into, the Spirit was poured out on and into you and that is CALLED the baptism of the Spirit but the word "baptism" is simply being used idiomatically. It is just the language... you were no more immersed into the Spirit than God is a rock. While God is a rock in the SENSE that He is steadfast, and you were immersed into the Spirit in the SENSE that it has been poured into you, both rock and baptism in both cases are words being used idiomatically. The bible is FULL of idioms.
 
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Saint Steven

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When you have a moment, please share with me a verse for each example... one where it is in and one with on. Thanks.
Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
 
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Dave L

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Thanks Dave, and welcome.

Does that indicate to you a single experience, a second experience, or ???
I believe the experience was twofold before Pentecost. The Spirit in most cases was with believers but in them after Pentecost. But now after Pentecost it's a matter of degree. In Acts we see one Baptism and subsequent fillings. In the epistles we see the means of filling as rejecting the impulses of the flesh which brings the fullness of the Spirit.
 
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Ken Rank

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Thanks, brother.
What did the disciples have before Pentecost? What did they have after?
God does not change... I can show you people with the Spirit before Shavuot (Pentecost) and after. The Spirit is given for a REASON, always has been and God does not change. The question to ask, the thing to study, is why was the Spirit given on that day? What was happening? I have an answer... I have written an article on this exact topic... but I would like to hear your view.

Take care you all... heading to work.
 
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Saint Steven

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This is so hard sometimes because we get so attached to our doctrines that we can't even have a discussion without trying to defend ourselves. I am NOT taking anything away from your experiences and I don't doubt them AT ALL. What I am saying is... there wasn't a pool of spirit that you were dunked in. Not being literal doesn't mean it isn't literal! :) While there is no pool of Spirit that you were immersed into, the Spirit was poured out on and into you and that is CALLED the baptism of the Spirit but the word "baptism" is simply being used idiomatically. It is just the language... you were no more immersed into the Spirit than God is a rock. While God is a rock in the SENSE that He is steadfast, and you were immersed into the Spirit in the SENSE that it has been poured into you, both rock and baptism in both cases are words being used idiomatically. The bible is FULL of idioms.
I trust a person who has actually been to the Grand Canyon to better express the experience than I can, having never been there myself. I've seen pictures, but I imagine nothing could give me greater understanding of it than actually going there. Same applies here.
 
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Small Fish

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All believers have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13 says so:

1 Cor 12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."

If anyone is not baptized in the Spirit they are not part of the body of Christ.

Acts 8 was a unique event in Church history. It was the first time outside of Judaism that anyone had become Christians and the Spirit was withheld until the apostles arrived so that they could witness that the hated Samaritans were not second-class citizens but full members of the church. We cannot make a single unique event in history the defacto pattern for today. It would contradict many other scripture which make it clear that everyone receives the Holy Spirit at conversion:

Rom 8:9 "And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."

Gal 3:2 "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?"

Acts 2:38 "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Eph 1:13 "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit"

etc
Not true.

Acts 19

1 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Not all who came out of Egypt went into the promised land.

Matthew 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
.
 
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Saint Steven

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God does not change... I can show you people with the Spirit before Shavuot (Pentecost) and after. The Spirit is given for a REASON, always has been and God does not change. The question to ask, the thing to study, is why was the Spirit given on that day? What was happening? I have an answer... I have written an article on this exact topic... but I would like to hear your view.

Take care you all... heading to work.
I agree that the Holy Spirit was active in the OT. Even in creation the Spirit hovered above the waters. And I love the bit about Joshua remaining behind after Moses left the Tent of Meeting. I believe he was enjoying God's presence in the same way I do when I gather for worship with my church family. God is there when I arrive. No need to invite Him.
 
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swordsman1

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Not true.

Acts 19

1 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Not all who came out of Egypt went into the promised land.

Matthew 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
.

The 12 disciples of John the Baptist were not Christians when Paul found them as they had not received the Holy Spirit and Paul had to explain who Jesus was.

Rom 8:9 "And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."
 
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Ken Rank

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Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
Most translations have "upon" for the Isaiah verse... not that it really changes anything. The Greek word in that verse (from the Septuagint) is epi, which also means upon. However, epi is NOT in the 1 Cor. verse so there is clearly two different words at play here.

I suspect... that God gives the Spirit in measures according to His desire. For example, there are a couple of times in the NT when we see somebody said to be "full of the Spirit" but this after they were given the Spirit (as in Peter, at Pentecost). So, why was he "full" at one point, and seemingly just had it like everyone else another? Because God had a special short term purpose for him. So, he can have the Spirit and yet be given more when needed.

My own daughter sang at my mom's funeral, aCappella, and she was a ROCK and sang like somebody needing to be on The Voice until she finished, then she broke down crying. I couldn't ask her at the time as I was officiating my mom's funeral... but after I learned that she felt a strength when she went up to sing and belted it out in front of hundreds like a pro... and then whatever extra she was given to accomplish that left and she felt it leave and was left with the emotion of all she had just done. My suspect that she has the Spirit like any other Christian and was given more when there was a need.

So on and in MIGHT be differentiated similarly? Just an idea.
 
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swordsman1

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Could I hear some testimonies from those that received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? What that was like and how it changed your life?

If you are a believer then you already know.

1 Cor 6:19 "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God"
 
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1stcenturylady

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There were no new gifts given to the disciples on their subsequent fillings. What characterizes being filled with the Spirit is joy and boldness.

How do you know that emphatically. What do you believe subsequent fillings are for.
 
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Small Fish

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The 12 disciples of John the Baptist were not Christians when Paul found them as they had not received the Holy Spirit and Paul had to explain who Jesus was.

Rom 8:9 "And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."

They were called believers by then but for argument's sake, after Paul baptized them they still did not have it, and then he laid hands on them. Then they got it. Surely they already believed after Paul have spoke to them?
 
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swordsman1

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How do you know that emphatically. What do you believe subsequent fillings are for.

The boldness we see from the disciples subsequent fillings. There was no tongues or any other gifts given when they were subsequently filled. We also see joy and thanksgiving as a consequence of being filled with the Spirit:

Eph 5:18-21 "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father; and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ."
 
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swordsman1

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They were called believers by then but for argument's sake, after Paul baptized them they still did not have it, and then he laid hands on them. Then they got it. Surely they already believed after Paul have spoke to them?

It doesn't say "Then Paul placed his hands on them..." it says "When Paul placed his hands on them". No chronology is given. So arguably Paul could have laid his hands on them before they were baptized. The impression certainly is that Paul's preaching, their baptism, and the Holy Spirit were all given within only minutes of each other, whichever order they occurred.
 
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