The Tulip is broken

[nobdysfool]

actually you are adding words to scripture here.. For it actually says that salvation and faith are both a gift of God. Just was always and even in the NT God does the choosing of who is His and who is not His.

What I've said several times to JDS, apparently with no comprehension on his part and certainly no acknowledgment, is that Salvation, the gift of God, is comprised of two parts: Grace and Faith. He insists on seeing what we say as two gifts: Salvation and Faith. That shows his lack of knowledge of Reformed Theology, and an obvious and stubborn bias against anyone who holds to it, to the point of subtly hinting that he doesn't believe that Calvinists are even saved.

It's very telling that he adopts an attitude of not needing any Greek knowledge, any knowledge of the church Fathers, basically he doesn't think he needs anything but the good ol' KJV. Sounds like someone else we know, who is on record as saying that all he needs is a Bible, and a Greek lexicon, and he is the equal of any theologian, living or dead. That person's bible of choice is the NASB, which he likes because of all the "alternate" readings in the margin, which he apparently believes are inspired as well. Actually there are two "wannabe theologians" here who use the NASB. Neither one of them has shown even the most rudimentary knowledge of Reformed Theology. Now we have a third who clearly doesn't understand that which he rails against.

"It is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth, and remove all doubt." (attributed to several different people)

We just have to consider the source, and do our best to encourage their education. They clearly do not know what they speak.

 

[JDS]

actually you are adding words to scripture here.. For it actually says that salvation and faith are both a gift of God. Just was always and even in the NT God does the choosing of who is His and who is not His.

This is a very serious charge because one who does that is under the anathema of God and I will agree with you that one of us is guilty of that. However, it is not I, but you. Let me quote Ep 2:8 for you.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

All these, salvation, grace, faith, gift of God is in the singular. "It" is a pronoun. If he was trying to make the case that faith and salvation were the gifts of God, he would have used the pronoun "these" are the gifts of God!

Our words are recorded in heaven and we will face them again and give an account of them. This is far more serious than I think some of you people are taking it.

There is only one thing in scripture that God says is "THE gift of God" and that is salvation, the Spirit, regeneration, eternal life, all synonyms. It is never said to be faith.

 

[AndOne]

There is only one thing in scripture that God says is "THE gift of God" and that is salvation, the Spirit, regeneration, eternal life, all synonyms. It is never said to be faith.

Please take a look at post #932 in this thread.....

 

[JDS]

What I've said several times to JDS, apparently with no comprehension on his part and certainly no acknowledgment, is that Salvation, the gift of God, is comprised of two parts: Grace and Faith. He insists on seeing what we say as two gifts: Salvation and Faith. That shows his lack of knowledge of Reformed Theology, and an obvious and stubborn bias against anyone who holds to it, to the point of subtly hinting that he doesn't believe that Calvinists are even saved.

It's very telling that he adopts an attitude of not needing any Greek knowledge, any knowledge of the church Fathers, basically he doesn't think he needs anything but the good ol' KJV. Sounds like someone else we know, who is on record as saying that all he needs is a Bible, and a Greek lexicon, and he is the equal of any theologian, living or dead. That person's bible of choice is the NASB, which he likes because of all the "alternate" readings in the margin, which he apparently believes are inspired as well. Actually there are two "wannabe theologians" here who use the NASB. Neither one of them has shown even the most rudimentary knowledge of Reformed Theology. Now we have a third who clearly doesn't understand that which he rails against.

"It is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth, and remove all doubt." (attributed to several different people)

We just have to consider the source, and do our best to encourage their education. They clearly do not know what they speak.

It does not take a Greek theologian to understand 5th grade English. It is your crowd that is making salvation hard to understand when God tells us clearly what it is. It is passing from death unto life! Life is the gift of God! It is reconciliation with God! If God lives eternally in the heart of the believer, would you not say that God and the sinner are reconciled? What was the condition before this happened? Sin! That is right, and God's answer to sin is the blood of Jesus Christ! He took sin away so he could reconcile the sinner wirh himself and the sinner heard the word of God's offer of reconciliation through Christ and how God had punished his own son as sin and he believed it and was reconciled personally to God, having his sins washed away at the indwelling of the Spirit in his heart forever. Faith and salvation are not the same thing. Faith is the means of attaining salvation and that is on almost every page of scripture. In our dispensation, one must believe the gospel of Jesus Christ to be saved.

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, (How did he do it) by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (The renewing of the Holy Ghost has been the goal of God since Adam lost him in the fall) (1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit) (Romans 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ)
6 Which (The Holy Ghost) he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

This is salvation and it is given when we believe!

 

[bling]

Heymikey80 said:
I think this eventuality was understood by a couple of the Church Fathers and was accounted for: faith is included in the conceptual antecedent; faith could also be the direct antecedent. They were often pretty good at integrating two concurring interpretations. Their conclusion was either way, "faith a gift of God".

I would be interested in who you are referring to. After 175 AD the Greek had become very corrupted with the exception in Greece itself. Today’s Greek scolars with the 45,000+ ancient first century manuscripts they have to work with can be trusted more then “Greek” speaking people that are living outside of Greece after 175 AD.

 

[nobdysfool]

This is a very serious charge because one who does that is under the anathema of God and I will agree with you that one of us is guilty of that. However, it is not I, but you. Let me quote Ep 2:8 for you.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

All these, salvation, grace, faith, gift of God is in the singular. "It" is a pronoun. If he was trying to make the case that faith and salvation were the gifts of God, he would have used the pronoun "these" are the gifts of God!

By your own reasoning, Faith would be a synonym for Salvation, as well as Grace, and Gift of God. You're trying to split hairs, where they cannot be split, to uphold a decided upon conclusion. Also, your punctuation is arbitrary. There is no punctuation in Greek, certainly not the kind you've inserted into the verse. Once again, you show your lack of knowledge. You aren't listening. Salvation is the Gift, composed of two parts: Grace and Faith. Taken together they are one gift, which works fine with "it". Your little argument collapses right there.

And you want to lecture us and tell us how we're going to hell? That's what you're hinting at, and you have no right to make that judgment.

Our words are recorded in heaven and we will face them again and give an account of them. This is far more serious than I think some of you people are taking it.

And of course, your words will be found to be correct, and ours will be found to not be, is that it? Aren't you assuming a bit much?

There is only one thing in scripture that God says is "THE gift of God" and that is salvation, the Spirit, regeneration, eternal life, all synonyms. It is never said to be faith.

That is very poor theology, to call all of those terms synonymous. They aren't. And it has been explained to you, but you apparently are very hard of hearing, and/or blind as well.

 

[Van]

Hi Bibliophile,

His quotes from pages 334 and 335 of Greek Grammar are inaccurate because he selectively quotes to distort the message of the textbook.

For example here is an inaccurate statement:

Neither that statement nor the implication exists in Dr Wallaces chapter on Pronouns that salvation is the gift in view in Ephesians 2:8. In his sub category Constructio ad Sensum (page 330) he states;

Contrast this with footnote 53 which says faith is not a gift per se and refers to the gift of salvation.

So to restate it one more time, the Calvinist assertion is that God instills the "gift of faith" and claims this fiction is supported by Ephesians 2:8. This assertion is false and reflects a lack of understanding of the text. Salvation is the gift in view, not faith. If Paul had intended "faith" as the gift, he would have used a pronoun in the same gender as "faith." But he did not.

 

[JDS]

Please take a look at post #932 in this thread.....

What is it you want me to see in that post? A philosophical veiw of salvation? A twisting of language to make it conform to the TULIP?

Does the language of scripture support his point that believing is a part of the whole?

NO!

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

If you would like to give some supporting language from scripture for your position, I promise to read it!

 

[AndOne]

This whole discussion is really missing the mark. Regardless of weather or not Faith is included in the gift of salvation or not (which Galations 3 affirms it is) - the real question anyone should ask themselves is how they attain faith.

John 3 has an interesting conversation between Nicodemus and Jesus. We all know the famous 3:16 passage but what is telling is the conversation at verses 5-8. Jesus talks about being "born again" and how it is a direct result of the Spirit working in a person. Quite simply the ability to even be able to believe cannot occur until the Spirit moves in a man. That is the bottom line.

 

[AndOne]

What is it you want me to see in that post?

You asked for a scripture that lists faith as a gift of God. That was one. That's all I wanted to point out.

 

[JDS]

By your own reasoning, Faith would be a synonym for Salvation, as well as Grace, and Gift of God. You're trying to split hairs, where they cannot be split, to uphold a decided upon conclusion. Also, your punctuation is arbitrary. There is no punctuation in Greek, certainly not the kind you've inserted into the verse. Once again, you show your lack of knowledge. You aren't listening. Salvation is the Gift, composed of two parts: Grace and Faith. Taken together they are one gift, which works fine with "it". Your little argument collapses right there.

For the last time, my authority is the English! Your authority is something else and is why you are having trouble. I do not think your authority is even the Greek! It seems to be yourself or your scholars. The bible is written in 5th grade English so it will be simple enough that we do not need to go back to the Greek. I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I have mastered 5th grade English!

And you want to lecture us and tell us how we're going to hell? That's what you're hinting at, and you have no right to make that judgment.

I do not know who is going to hell. But I do know what the scriptures say about how to go to heaven. It is by believing the record that God gave of his son. He that hath the son hath life and he that hath not the son of God hath not life. Those are all one syllable words. I do not need the Greek to explainthat to me.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the ends thererof are the ways of death!

That is very poor theology, to call all of those terms synonymous. They aren't. And it has been explained to you, but you apparently are very hard of hearing, and/or blind as well.

You have made no effort to defend your position scripturally. You have just whined about other people disagreeing with you.

You cannot defend your position scripurally because the scripture does not support it! Calvinism is a proud unscriptural theology that produces pride and smugness in it's adherents. It is dangerous!

 

[heymikey80]

I would be interested in who you are referring to. After 175 AD the Greek had become very corrupted with the exception in Greece itself. Today’s Greek scolars with the 45,000+ ancient first century manuscripts they have to work with can be trusted more then “Greek” speaking people that are living outside of Greece after 175 AD.

Much of what follows is from various paleographic books, most by Bruce Metzger.

For the record:

There are thousands of Middle Greek manuscripts dating from first century BC to fourth century AD.

The number of First Century Greek manuscripts does not number 45000+.

The number of New Testament Greek manuscripts from the First Century is zero. One bears the possibility, but it's unlikely.

The language didn't "corrupt" after 175 AD. In fact someone who reads Middle Greek can read the Greek manuscripts of the fourth and fifth and sixth century with no more trouble than the First Century BC. In point of fact most readers can also get through the miniscule transformation, because we've all been taught to write in Greek miniscules.

 

[cygnusx1]

"Lord increase our faith " said the disciples , they knew who sourced their faith.

faith comes by hearing the word of God , but if all men have faith but must choose what to do with it , then faith is within and doesn't "come" by hearing......

The apostle Peter also said that Christians have received faith through Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:1).

Christians are described as those "who by grace have believed" (Acts 18:27)

all believers have been "granted" to believe in Christ (Philippians 1:29).

repentance is a gift (2 Tim 2:25)(Acts 5:31) and would it not be meaningless to grant a man this *gift* to repent without also giving him faith ....

**(not "opportunity" as those who do all they can to weaken God's Soteriology)

 

[JDS]

You asked for a scripture that lists faith as a gift of God. That was one. That's all I wanted to point out.

I said I wanted a passage that lists faith as THE gift of God! That is not it! Ephesians 2:8 is dealing with THE gift of God! That is what I expect you to deal with!

 

[AndOne]

I said I wanted a passage that lists faith as THE gift of God! That is not it!

Can you explain why it isn't?

 

[AndOne]

"Lord increase our faith " said the disciples , they knew who sourced their faith.

The apostle Peter also said that Christians have received faith through Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:1).

Christians are described as those "who by grace have believed" (Acts 18:27)

all believers have been "granted" to believe in Christ (Philippians 1:29).

Very nice Cyg - thanks for adding some more to the list. Seems there are a few passages out there that support the concept of faith as a gift in relation to salvation.

 

[JDS]

Can you explain why it isn't?

That seems rather obvious! It doesn't say it!

 

[JDS]

Very nice Cyg - thanks for adding some more to the list. Seems there are a few passages out there that support the concept of faith as a gift in relation to salvation.

Has anyone thought to look at the context of those passages? This reminds me of someone looking for key words to support a position rather than seeking the mind of God.

 

[MamaZ]

This is a very serious charge because one who does that is under the anathema of God and I will agree with you that one of us is guilty of that. However, it is not I, but you. Let me quote Ep 2:8 for you.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

All these, salvation, grace, faith, gift of God is in the singular. "It" is a pronoun. If he was trying to make the case that faith and salvation were the gifts of God, he would have used the pronoun "these" are the gifts of God!

Our words are recorded in heaven and we will face them again and give an account of them. This is far more serious than I think some of you people are taking it.

There is only one thing in scripture that God says is "THE gift of God" and that is salvation, the Spirit, regeneration, eternal life, all synonyms. It is never said to be faith.

You may want to find out what Grace is.. For Gods grace is shown to all people right now.. He allows it to rain on the wicked as well as those whom He has called.. Unmerited favor is grace.. It is the faith that is the gift.. Grace is shown to all and it is by grace that we are saved.. for no one deserves any blessing from God. It is His mercy that shines down on this sin riddled world.. But the faith is the gift that is not of ourselves but a gift of God.

 

[AndOne]

Has anyone thought to look at the context of those passages?

Yes - absolutely.