The Tulip is broken

[MamaZ]

Gods Grace is seen everywhere.. But soon this will not be the case for Gods wrath will be poured out on this sin riddled world..

 

[MamaZ]

We are saved by grace through Faith which is not of ourselves but a gift of God.

 

[AndOne]

Post deleted

 

[nobdysfool]

I said I wanted a passage that lists faith as THE gift of God! That is not it! Ephesians 2:8 is dealing with THE gift of God! That is what I expect you to deal with!

Does everything have to be spelled out for you before you will accept it? Thomas the disciple had less trouble believing than you do! We Calvinists are more aware of context than most of the anti-Calvinists here, including you.

Let me remind you again that the Truths in God's Word are not gems laying around on top of the ground, for just anyone to pick up. They must be mined. They must be dug out, and examined. You seem to want them to be just laying about, already polished and faceted, so you can see them clearly without any investment of effort on your part. Doesn't work that way. I think it has been quite clearly shown that the Calvinists here have spent far more time mining the Truths of God's Word than you have. You want the easy finds, and want to mock those who spent the time and effort in mining.

 

[JDS]

Does everything have to be spelled out for you before you will accept it? Thomas the disciple had less trouble believing than you do! We Calvinists are more aware of context than most of the anti-Calvinists here, including you.

Let me remind you again that the Truths in God's Word are not gems laying around on top of the ground, for just anyone to pick up. They must be mined. They must be dug out, and examined. You seem to want them to be just laying about, already polished and faceted, so you can see them clearly without any investment of effort on your part. Doesn't work that way. I think it has been quite clearly shown that the Calvinists here have spent far more time mining the Truths of God's Word than you have. You want the easy finds, and want to mock those who spent the time and effort in mining.

Deal with the passage in the context of scripture, not in the context of your religion. Ephesians has a theme. This passage, Ep 2:8, supports and advances that theme in some way. How does it do it? You haven't said and you have not told us what you think salvation is. What is it?

God is precise in his words. That is how we determine it's truths. We compare scripture with scripture. He tells us what THE gift of God is. We are not left guessing. It is always the same, AND IT IS NEVER FAITH! If it had different meanings in different passages, we would never be able to determine the meaning.

 

[nobdysfool]

Deal with the passage in the context of scripture, not in the context of your religion. Ephesians has a theme. This passage, Ep 2:8, supports and advances that theme in some way. How does it do it? You haven't said and you have not told us what you think salvation is. What is it?

God is precise in his words. That is how we determine it's truths. We compare scripture with scripture. He tells us what THE gift of God is. We are not left guessing. It is always the same, AND IT IS NEVER FAITH! If it had different meanings in different passages, we would never be able to determine the meaning.

Ephesians is about more than just the Mystery. Paul gives the definition of the mystery in this passage:

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

​

Paul also gives us the scope of Salvation, what it involves, and its reach:

Eph 2:4-10 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- (6) and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
​

The problem you have, although you won't admit it, is that if Faith is not part of the gift of Salvation, how does man come to have the faith which causes God to place him in Christ? The only way you can make room for that is to argue that man is not fallen. You must argue that man does not require God's Grace in order to believe, that man has full capability to do so on his own, by his own choice, and under his own power. Scripture as a whole completely destroys such a view. Pelagius held to that view, and was pronounced a heretic for it.

 

[Bibliophile]

Hi Bibliophile,

Hi Van

His quotes from pages 334 and 335 of Greek Grammar are inaccurate because he selectively quotes to distort the message of the textbook.

I checked oworms quotes in Wallaces book. Actually I have the text book open in front of me now at those pages. Oworms quotes are verbatim and representative of the text. Of course he does not quote word for word, probably because he is typing it out, but his quotes are extensive enough to show that they represent the theme of the question under discussion.
Can you provide quotes from the text which will show otherwise? I noticed that you hadn't quoted anything from Wallaces book and wondered how you arrived at your assumptions based on his insights.

For example here is an inaccurate statement: Contrast this with footnote 53 which says faith is not a gift per se and refers to the gift of salvation.

Neither that statement nor the implication exists in Dr Wallaces chapter on Pronouns that salvation is the gift in view in Ephesians 2:8. In his sub category Constructio ad Sensum (page 330) he states;

I checked oworms reference and he was refering to your statement that

Salvation is the gift in view, and salvation is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God.

I'm sorry but I cannot see how that statement was innacurate. In fact I noticed from your post that you said that footnote 53 says that faith is not a gift per se and refers to the gift of salvation. You did exactly what you thought oworm did by taking part of the statement and quoting it with the purposing of bolstering your inclined choice of meaning. There was a preposition in their "IF' which brings a whole new meaning to the grammar of the footnote. Also the use of the term per se which means by, of for, or in itself, or intrinsically could take us down all sorts of translational rabbit trail lol

The tenor of Wallaces assumptions are somewhat vague in that he presents four positions. He does not come down on any one position with any kind of certainty. This is evident by his use of words like "Doubtful" and "inclined" He also uses the word "Plausible" Then he says that the issues are "complex and cannot be solved by grammar alone" Of course oworm did partially quote from a footnote but even that footnote is not a decisive statement which categorically states a position. (That's why its a footnote lol) and thats why Wallace says that he is "inclined to agree" with another scholar. An inclination is a preference denoting choice. And herein lies the problem for scholars and those who use them to bolster there own preferred inclinations.

Wallace takes no exegetical stand on the text of Ephesians 2:8. This is evident from the heading title that he uses when he comes to address it. The heading says it all, because the heading presents Eph 2:8 as a Debatable Example (page 334)

Interestingly in footnote 56 Wallace says that out of the 22 instances of kai touto in the New Testament 14 or 15 of them had a conceptual referent.

In conclusion it is apparent from pages 300-335 and Wallace's discussion on the exegesis of Ephesians 2:8 that his inclination toward a position and doubtfulness of another is a debatable example that "The issues here are complex and cannot be solved by grammar alone" ( Yes, that was a partial quote)

 

[JDS]

Ephesians is about more than just the Mystery. Paul gives the definition of the mystery in this passage:

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

​

Paul also gives us the scope of Salvation, what it involves, and its reach:

Eph 2:4-10 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- (6) and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
​

The problem you have, although you won't admit it, is that if Faith is not part of the gift of Salvation, how does man come to have the faith which causes God to place him in Christ? The only way you can make room for that is to argue that man is not fallen. You must argue that man does not require God's Grace in order to believe, that man has full capability to do so on his own, by his own choice, and under his own power. Scripture as a whole completely destroys such a view. Pelagius held to that view, and was pronounced a heretic for it.

No, faith is not a part of salvation and it is not a gift or the gift in that context anywhere in scripture. It is the responsibility of a man who hears the gospel to believe it and any man who preaches anything else could be construed as preaching another gospel. The problem you men have is that you cannot believe God can make salvation as simple as he does. You feel you must add antrigue and mystery to it and in so doing create an elitist class. This is not right. God said Christ died for all men and you say he died for a few men. You say faith is the gift of God and he nowhere says that, He says the indwelling Spirit of life is the gift of God. You say faith is part of the gospel and God says one must believe the gospel. You even agree with this because you posted this: (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith.

Here is what the scripture says the gift of God is. It never disagrees with itself:

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

This is in reference to that part of the Abrahamic covenant that promise that all the families of the earth would be blessed through him. This is how it was done!

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it (his faith) was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

You are continuing to argue a position that is contrary to scripture.

 

[nobdysfool]

No, faith is not a part of salvation and it is not a gift or the gift in that context anywhere in scripture. It is the responsibility of a man who hears the gospel to believe it and any man who preaches anything else could be construed as preaching another gospel. The problem you men have is that you cannot believe God can make salvation as simple as he does. You feel you must add antrigue and mystery to it and in so doing create an elitist class. This is not right. God said Christ died for all men and you say he died for a few men. You say faith is the gift of God and he nowhere says that, He says the indwelling Spirit of life is the gift of God. You say faith is part of the gospel and God says one must believe the gospel. You even agree with this because you posted this: (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith.

Here is what the scripture says the gift of God is. It never disagrees with itself:

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

This is in reference to that part of the Abrahamic covenant that promise that all the families of the earth would be blessed through him. This is how it was done!

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it (his faith) was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

You are continuing to argue a position that is contrary to scripture.

Once again, you do not address what I said, but instead make false accusations and display your utter ignorance of Reformed Theology. Tell us how a fallen man can possibly produce from within his fallen, corrupt heart, a faith that will please God, Tell us how this happens. Quit dodging the questions, and answer them.

 

[AndOne]

I don't think he believes that man is fallen - though it is made quite clear in Romans 3 that we all are.

 

[JDS]

I don't think he believes that man is fallen - though it is made quite clear in Romans 3 that we all are.

I think your comments proves the fallen state!

 

[cesty]

Tell us how a fallen man can possibly produce from within his fallen, corrupt heart, a faith that will please God, Tell us how this happens. Quit dodging the questions, and answer them.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Timothy 4:3-4 KJV)

How can they turn away from the truth if they can't hear it?

And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. (Matthew 23:12-14 KJV)

How can people be hypocrites if they don't have the truth?

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)

What sense is there in talking about falling away if it isn't possible for a person to lose faith in Jesus Christ?

 

[nobdysfool]

I think your comments proves the fallen state!

Ah, the Arminian "I know you are, but what am I?" defense.....

 

[MamaZ]

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Timothy 4:3-4 KJV)

free will scratches mens pride.

 

[nobdysfool]

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Timothy 4:3-4 KJV)

How can they turn away from the truth if they can't hear it?

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you believe that every man who claims to be saved actually is?

And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. (Matthew 23:12-14 KJV)

How can people be hypocrites if they don't have the truth?

What do you call someone who claims to have the Truth, but doesn't?

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)

What sense is there in talking about falling away if it isn't possible for a person to lose faith in Jesus Christ?

What proof do you have that those who fall away ever had real faith, saving faith, in Jesus Christ?

 

[AndOne]

I think your comments proves the fallen state!

I don't get it....

 

[MamaZ]

Free will says that wow I must have done something right I chose God.. IT was my faith that saved me so pat me on the back.. Woo hoo

 

[JDS]

Tell us how a fallen man can possibly produce from within his fallen, corrupt heart, a faith that will please God, Tell us how this happens. Quit dodging the questions, and answer them.

This argument that faith is some sort of ethereal or other worldly concept is mind blowing and is possibly the silliest argument I have ever heard, quite frankly. To think and teach that someone cannot believe the gospel of Jesus Christ when the whole church is commissioned to tell every sinner on the earth with the attendent promise that God will save them from hell if they believe it must surely put these people in a group that should be pitied by those who have a higher capacity to think and reason, at the VERY least.

Here is an example of how faith works:

A man is working in an enclosed building without windows. He is ready to break for lunch and so he asks someone who has just come in from the outside what the weather is like. He is told it is raining hard. So he picks up his umbrella and goes outside. He has believed and his umbrella proves it.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is believed the same way. Faith comes by hearing the word of God and he who believes it is saved from death and hell. How can they hear without a preacher?

And how can anyone deal with a grown man who has not mastered this concept of faith?

 

[MamaZ]

Faith is the gift of God for it is what we are saved through.. It is not of any mans will or intention but only given to those whom God has chosen to be His..Saving faith is from God.. IT is more than a head knowlede. It is more that assumption.. It is a life changing experience that is created out of the will of God..

 

[MamaZ]

Even the demons believe and tremble in the sight of God.. Saving faith changes a man or woman in the instant it is gifted.. If it does not then one must examine themselves to see if they be of the faith.