The Tulip is broken

[A New Dawn]

No, sorry. Maybe you can copy and paste whatever it is you are referencing.

 

[drstevej]

Tell me why God would not mold His clay as He see's fit.. How can the pot say to the potter why am I made this way?

That is the question I have been asking calvinists for years.

Maybe you should ask Paul.... He expects the question and answers...

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?​

You insist upon being a Pot calling the Potter Whacky

 

[nobdysfool]

www.bible.ca/global-religion-statistics-world-christian-encyclopedia.htm

Cut off the stuff after "ca", and you will go to a site that is, to say the least, extreme.

There is no link on that site to a "global religion statistics/world Christian encyclopedia", that I can find.


JDS, let's see the actual quote, rather than a non-working link. Given the nature of the rest of this site, and it's obvious vitriolic attitude toward Calvinism, I seriously doubt any info that it would purport to say. At least now I know where you're getting your flawed and inaccurate view of Calvinism.

Folks, go to http://www.bible.ca and see for yourself.

 

[JDS]

Cut off the stuff after "ca", and you will go to a site that is, to say the least, extreme.

There is no link on that site to a "global religion statistics/world Christian encyclopedia", that I can find.


JDS, let's see the actual quote, rather than a non-working link. Given the nature of the rest of this site, and it's obvious vitriolic attitude toward Calvinism, I seriously doubt any info that it would purport to say. At least now I know where you're getting your flawed and inaccurate view of Calvinism.

Folks, go to http://www.bible.ca and see for yourself.

Try this and follow links
http://www.adherents.com/

I could not tell that this link is either pro or con anything. It is a graph. I will work on getting it to you later. It is statistics for all religions in the world.

 

[nobdysfool]

Try this and follow links
http://www.adherents.com/

I could not tell that this link is either pro or con anything. It is a graph. I will work on getting it to you later. It is statistics for all religions in the world.

You're being purposely vague. Certainly you can narrow it down. Please do so.

 

[oworm]

I am bumping this so that it will not be buried under all the other irrelevant posts


Originally Posted by Van

Hi New Dawn, because the pronoun ("that") is in the neuter gender, it can refer back to a conceptual antecedent. D. Wallace explains all this in Greek Grammar, Beyond the Basics. The conceptual antecedent is salvation by grace through faith. Salvation is the gift in view, and salvation is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God.

D. Wallace also explains why the argument presented by Kuyper is without merit, see pages 334 and 335.

Every time you see a Calvinist express the idea that Ephesians 2:8 supports its false doctrine of the gift of faith, know that Calvinism is thus supported by faulty understanding of the text.
​

Are you deliberately avoiding my question?

YOU claimed that the greek grammar precludes the interpretation that faith is a gift from God. All I am asking is that you substantiate the claim that YOU made. Can you do that without appealing to second had knowledge? Why dont you at least quote from your source material as is normal debating proceedure when citing sources other than your self?

Folks

Van claimed in his own words that the greek grammar of Ephesians 2:8 precludes that faith is a gift from God. All I am asking is that he shows FROM HIS OWN SELF PROCLAIMED UNDERSTANDING of the text, that he parse his way through the text and shows us how he arrives at his assertion. He claimed his knowledge by implication before any mention of any other source.
Folks
Please note that I am giving Van the opportunity to uphold his debating integrity and maintain his dignity by asking him to validate his claims. He can either do that or retract his statement and humbly admit that he has little or insufficient knowledge of the greek text of Ephesians save that which he has gleaned from secondary sources.

Here are Vans assertions

Originally Posted by Van

Ephesians 2:8 does not in the slightest suggest faith is a gift of God, based on Greek Grammar
​

Originally Posted by Van

D. Wallace, a Calvinist of integrity, simply says whether faith is a gift of God or not, you cannot support the idea from Ephesians 2:8, or words to that effect.
​

"Words to that effect" are an insufficient citation. If you are going to cite a source you must quote the source verbatim. If you are willing to post longwinded assertions from your own mind then surely you will take the time to quote extensively from a source that you cite in support of your assertion!

FOLKS

Here again is Vans original assertion;

Originally Posted by Van

Ephesians 2:8 does not say faith is a gift of God. Greek grammar precludes that interpretation, yet it is posted again and again, as if truth does not matter. Salvation is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God through our faith in Christ.
​

And here are the specific posts that apply to this part of the discussion

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49073107&postcount=605

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49074429&postcount=607

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49074612&postcount=608

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49074728&postcount=609

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49074917&postcount=612

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49075418&postcount=613

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49075581&postcount=614

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49075904&postcount=616

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49085208&postcount=623

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49085208&postcount=623


And here again is my response to Vans assertion;



Van, It seemed apparent from your statement above that what you posted was out of a pre existent knowledge of the greek text? All I am asking is that you show from your own understanding of the greek grammar how the text of Ehp 2:8 precludes the interpretation that faith is a gift from God?

I am only asking that you substantiate your claim by referring to the greek grammar itself and showing from your own parsing of the text what you believe to be the correct exegesis. As a self proclaimed student of greek-implicit from your claim- you should be able to do that!

Why would you not be willing to do that since you yourself made the claim? Why would you not be willing to go to the greek text which is the closest to the original autograph that we have and substantiate your claim authoritively and exegetically? I would have thought this would be a golden opportunity to show decisivly and irrefutably from the infallible and inerrant word of God that faith is not a gift from God? Surely that would end the argument right here and now and leave the rest of us struck dumb in the face of truth?

Can you stand behind your claim Van and show from your knowledge of the greek text (A knowledge that you implicitly claimed to posses) that faith as a gift from God is precluded from Eph2:8?

Van
Why do you insist on avoiding dealing directly with the question and continue to refuse to quote verbatim your sources? Why wont you exegete the text from your own self proclaimed knowledge?

 

[JDS]

The graph that I got my data from can be found by doing this
http://www.bible.ca

This is not a website I have ever visited for information on anti calvist material, BTW (or for anything else).

Type in "statistics" in the search box

Click -
Global statistics for all religions: 2001 AD

The first graph is the Data I was referencing.

 

[nobdysfool]

The graph that I got my data from can be found by doing this
http://www.bible.ca

This is not a website I have ever visited for information on anti calvist material, BTW (or for anything else).

Type in "statistics" in the search box

Click -
Global statistics for all religions: 2001 AD

The first graph is the Data I was referencing.

The link apparently only works in IE7. Mozilla Firefox will not bring it up. I pretty much exclusively use Firefox.

Now, what exactly is the data you used? You';re still being very vague. You came up with a percentage, then amended it by 4. I have yet to see where you got that number from , and I believe you owe it to the readers to be clear about it.

You made an accusation, now back it up, or retract it.

 

[drstevej]

The link does not work, it goes to a blank page. It is a bogus link. Copy and paste the info here, or admit that you don't have it.

I clicked on the link and got this error

The page you are trying to view cannot be shown because it uses an invalid or unsupported form of compression.

 

[nobdysfool]

I clicked on the link and got this error

IE7, or Firefox?

 

[oworm]

Ephesians 2:8 says salvation is a gift, not that our faith is a gift. Greek grammar precludes that the idea was that faith was a gift because the gender of the word translated "faith" does not agree with the gender of the pronoun "that" in the phrase "and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God.

Please note that this quote is from post number 5 in this thread

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=48121413&postcount=5

Can you please provide citation that the Greek Grammar of Ephesians 2:8 precludes that faith is a gift?

 

[oworm]

The quote below is from post number 84 in this thread;


http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=48211867&postcount=84

James 2:5 does not say people love God as a consequence of being chosen. Just read it folks. It says God choses folks rich in faith, not to be rich in faith. Every translation that inserts those words alters the meaning of the text. Greek grammar supports the idea that the verb, choose, has a direct object and a compliment. The compliment is "rich in faith" therefore the correct understanding is God choses those who are rich in faith. The verse should be translated as it is in a number of version, Did not God choose the poor of this world, rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him.

Can you please provide citation that the Greek Grammar supports the idea that the verb choose,has a direct object and a compliment and that the compliment is rich in faith?

 

[oworm]

The quote below is from post 89 in this thread

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=48216179&postcount=89

the fact that I know nothing of Greek grammar does not mean I cannot present what Greek scholars say is the construction of James 2:5.

Your assertion simply demonstrates you have no idea how the verse is put together according to the experts who provided my view

Which Greek Scholars are you referencing? Please cite your sources.
I have a fairly respectable library so I may have some of these works myself.

 

[oworm]

The quote below is from post 96

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=48230789&postcount=96

RTE seems to have no idea of the Greek grammatical structure of James 2:5.

Do you? Can you enlighten us on the grammar structure of this verse?

 

[oworm]

the quote below is from post 286

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=48811699&postcount=286

Unconditional election to salvation is demonstrated false by James 2:5 which teaches that God chooses folks based on their characteristics for salvation. They were poor in the eyes of the world, but rich in God's eyes because they loved God.

Can you provide us with an exegetical analysis from James 2:5 of how God chooses folks based on their charateristics?

 

[oworm]

The quote below is from post 591 in this thread

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=49062526&postcount=591

Does our faith originate from God? Yes, God is the first cause of everything. God gave us the ability to hear, understand, accept and trust fully in God. God provided His revelation, including the gospel of Christ which is the power of God to salvation.

You have consistently denied in other posts and threads that faith originates from God and yet from the post above you claim that faith does originate from God Of course that may depend on who the "US" are.

 

[A New Dawn]

IE7, or Firefox?

Firefox

 

[nobdysfool]

Firefox

Try it in IE7. Not that it will really give you much info, though. I am waiting for JDS to show us what he's referring to. He doesn't seem to want to do that. (imagine that!)

 

[A New Dawn]

Try it in IE7. Not that it will really give you much info, though. I am waiting for JDS to show us what he's referring to. He doesn't seem to want to do that. (imagine that!)

I saw the site, and it seems to view Christianity as a very narrow entity. I checked the other site he linked (Adherents) but since it is multiple choice, and I don't know what category he looked up, I don't know how to find what he says is there.

 

[drstevej]

I saw the site, and it seems to view Christianity as a very narrow entity. I checked the other site he linked (Adherents) but since it is multiple choice, and I don't know what category he looked up, I don't know how to find what he says is there.

very interesting post.


*congrats*