The Tulip is broken

[AndOne]

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Don't repetitively post similar or identical posts or threads.

http://christianforums.com/announcement.php?f=83

Hi Cyg - been away for awhile. Does this mean you're back to posting here? If so - COOL!

I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing that one enforced, bro!

 

[nobdysfool]

Hi Cyg - been away for awhile. Does this mean you're back to posting here? If so - COOL!

I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing that one enforced, bro!

Considering who is being referred to, at least someone should be made aware of it. Enforcement falls to others. We report, they decide.

 

[AndOne]

Well even Peter had to have revealed to Him who Christ was.. Read MT.. For no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the holy Spirit..

Matthew 16:13-20

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"

They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[b] the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven." Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

There's just no gettin around that one....

 

[nobdysfool]

Matthew 16:13-20

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"

They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[b] the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven." Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

There's just no gettin around that one....

Oh, but the Synergists do try.....

 

[AndOne]

Oh, but the Synergists do try.....

(In my best Yoda voice)
"Try" - yes - but "do" - they do not...

 

[cygnusx1]

Hi Cyg - been away for awhile. Does this mean you're back to posting here? If so - COOL!

I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing that one enforced, bro!

hi bro , yes for a time anyway , thanks , I just couldn't resist two hot threads here

btw , spamming/repeating the same thing over and over is against the rules , why would anyone wish to spam their own thread ? perhaps it's a sign of running out of steam -onto the rocks and the propeller just keeps going round and round while the boat goes nowhere ?

a shipwreck !

 

[pawnraider]

Well done Van! I've always had questions about Calvinism, especially with predestination. Your points are thorough and, might I add, Biblical.

 

[MamaZ]

According to the freewill theory the Lord intends to do good, but he must subject his will to his own creature to know what his intention is

 

[drstevej]

Well done Van! I've always had questions about Calvanism, especially with predestination. Your points are thorough and, might I add, Biblical.

10 posts in 11 months.

Argyle or crew?

BTW, what is "Calvanism" ???

 

[drstevej]

Words from John Robinson, Pilgrim Pastor...

We therefore conclude with the apostle, that God works in us both the will and the deed: not only by his word working on us, but by his Spirit working in us: not only by sending Paul to plant, by propounding strong arguments of persuasion, but also by giving the increase by the most effectual work of his Spirit, enlightening the eyes of the understanding to see the force of those arguments, opening the heart to attend to them, and so writing them in the same heart, and most inward parts, as they cannot be blotted out.

That Adam had, as well, freedom of the will after, as before his fall, is as true as that he was a man after, as before. For take away will from a man, and he ceaseth to be a man: and take away freedom of the will, in that which it willeth, and it ceaseth to be will. But here is the difference, that the same natural power of free will, which before was rightly ordered, and disposed only to good actually, though changeably, was afterwards corrupted, disordered, and clean contrarily disposed, til by supernatural grace, it was rectified and renewed.

…to conceive that God doth anything, in time, which he did not from eternity purpose to do as he doth it, is derogatory to his infinite wisdom and power: and, indeed, to deny him to be God, and to make him finite: in whom there is a change wrought, and a beginning, and growth of counsels

 

[JDS]

According to the freewill theory the Lord intends to do good, but he must subject his will to his own creature to know what his intention is

If those of us who teach others from God's holy word that Christ died for our sins and suffered for the whole world like he said he did and that whosoever will may take of the water of life (the Holy Spirit) freely because the blood of Jesus Christ propitiated God for the sins of the whole world and that Christ tasted death in the stead of every man and we get to the judgment one day and find out that we have been preaching something that he did not say or mean and that we have been lying to people in the name of the Lord, then it should not surprise us if God is angry about that and that he casts us into a devils hell for doing it. He would simply say that we did not really believe what he said and we manifested our unbelief in the manner we represented him and that we twisted his sayings to suit our own ends. He could say that we refised to be taught the truth by the calvinists on the tulip thread on Christianforums.
I am confident though that God will not be angry at me for believing his words and I am going to appear before him one day having believed and taught that the gospel of Jesus Christ is GOOD NEWS FOR THE WHOLE WORLD and that God will save every single soul who was born on earth if they will hear and believe because Jesus Christ suffered and died for them on the cross. I believe it is others that should fear the judgment!

Joh 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

How much plainer could God have made it? I must be careful that I am believing his WORDS lest at the judgment I be found a liar because I have twisted his words and then I will have to explain why I did it.

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Lord Jesus, please help me to examine my heart and motive because these calvinists say I am preaching something that is not true and you did not die for the sins of the whole world and the blood of Jesus Christ is not the propitiation for the sins of the whole world because the whole world means the whole elect and that God did not love the world so that he would send you to die for us all but just a few of us. Dear Lord Jesus, this is too serious for me to miss it! Amen!

 

[MamaZ]

Then I suggest you read and mediate on the word of God and not you own thoughts to what is being said..
Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Eph 1:8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
Eph 1:10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints,
Eph 1:16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers;
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.
Eph 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
Eph 1:20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Eph 1:22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
Now no where in this scripture do we see that it is of our own free will but Gods will.

 

[MamaZ]

How can a spiritually dead person come alive by their own free will? The whole plan of salvation, from the first to the last, hinges and turns, and is dependent on the absolute will of God, and not on the will of the creature.

 

[drstevej]

How can a spiritually dead person come alive by their own free will? The whole plan of salvation, from the first to the last, hinges and turns, and is dependent on the absolute will of God, and not on the will of the creature.

 

[MamaZ]

 

[MamaZ]

That is like saying Lazarus could have walked out of the tomb by His own free will..

 

[heymikey80]

The "T" refers to total spiritual inability and that assertion is unbiblical. Matthew 13:20-22 teaches that unregenerate folks have the ability to accept the gospel with joy, so while some folks have hardened themselves with the practice of sin, they have lost what spiritual ability they had, and therefore cannot understand the gospel, this condition does not apply to all men, according to Jesus.

On the contrary, the "T" refers to moral inability and that assertion is utterly Biblical. The basic assertion is that even our best righteous actions or thoughts or wills are corrupted by our sinful nature.

Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. Rom 2:1-5

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:

"None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes." Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. Rom 3:9-20



From of old no one has heard
or perceived by the ear,
no eye has seen a God besides you,
who acts for those who wait for him.
You meet him who joyfully works righteousness,
those who remember you in your ways.
Behold, you were angry, and we sinned;
in our sins we have been a long time, and shall we be saved?
We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
There is no one who calls upon your name,
who rouses himself to take hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us,
and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities. Is 64:4-7

​

The quote of Mt 13 is a poor prooftext, being out of context. It states that people who do believe something about the Gospel (probably a belief that it is good news) celebrate it with us for a time, but then drop out. Calvinists argue that they're clearly unregenerate, all the way through. They don't become regenerate, then unregenerate.

The "U" refers to Unconditional election and that assertion is unbiblical. God chooses folks based on their characteristics, he credits their faith as righteousness. James 2:5, Romans 4:5.

On the contrary, Scripture talks directly about God being the One Who chooses, and that not based on human will or effort.

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Rom 9:11-16
​

Rom 4:5 isn't relevant because it's understood in Calvinism that belief is the characteristic of someone with a changed heart. The person's already been changed from the heart. Changed by whom? Himself or God? "circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." Rom 2:28

James 2:5 is misquoted. God picks people for salvation without respect of characteristics. Many are poor, and that teaches us something about respecting the poor as our family of Christ. Some are rich, and that teaches us something, too. They're not special -- they have tasks to do, too. "As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy." 1 Tim 6:17

God didn't choose poor people exclusively nor inclusively. He simply chose people. He chose the poor to teach us something -- in fact the exact opposite of, "It's clear why God chose him to be saved, because he's [poor|rich]". To miss that is to miss what James 2:5 says.

The "L" refers to Limited Atonement and this assertion as defined by Calvinism, is unbiblical. 1 John 2:2 tells us Christ is the propitiation for the whole world. Christ laid down his life as a ransom for all.

On the contrary, Calvinism speaks of Atonement in terms of who is actually atoned-for -- who Jesus lays down His life for. In other words, the Atonement is an actual atonement. The Atonement is not a proposition about salvation. The Atonement is the entire process of salvation.

I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. John 10:14-15
​

So not everyone is saved. Were the ransom paid on all, all would be saved.

Jesus is the sole One propitiating, as 1 Jn 2:2 states. He's for this whole creation. But He won't save every person in this creation. And that's precisely what the doctrine of Limited Atonement says.

It may be instructive to point out, in free-will views Limited Atonement isn't expanded to Universal Atonement. It's still limited Atonement, though in a very different way. Why? Because in these views Jesus doesn't actually save anyone. Their wills or actions must be applied to His work to finish the actual Atonement. So the Atonement is partial.

The "I" refers to Irresistible Grace and this assertion is unbiblical. Matthew 23:13 teaches us of folks who were entering heaven, and thus, according to the false doctrine of Calvinism, were under the influence of Irresistible Grace, yet they were turned aside by false teachers.

On the contrary, Irresistible Grace is the attribute of creative grace. You can't stop God from creating a new life within you. You've no force in the matter to exert. Ep 2:1,5 describes this case: "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved"

For while we were still powerless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person--though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die--but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5:6-8
​

Why Mt 23:13 would be relevant in this case is a paradox. It certainly doesn't speak about God's power to create spiritual life. In Mt 23:13 Jesus is attacking the severe inconsistency in the Pharisaical view of the kingdom of heaven being the kingdom of Israel, of setting high bars to a counterfeit of the kingdom of heaven, deflecting people from entry into that. Of course this obscures the true kingdom of heaven, and the Pharisees are accused of deception and deflection. God ordains the processes of His creation (theologically, "means"). The Pharisees were subverting them.

 

[JDS]

According to the freewill theory the Lord intends to do good, but he must subject his will to his own creature to know what his intention is

Why is this such a foreign concept that God gives his moral law and expects his creation to abide by it seeing he is their provider and sustainer?

Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

WHY?

Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

Could not God have predestinated at least a few of those people to be righteous? What did God expect if he created them for the day of destruction? Why would he need to repent if his sovereign intention was to destroy these predestinated to destruction with a flood these adulterers, murders, and cutthroats?

I wonder if God really did repent and if he was truly grieved at his heart for the manner his creation treated his righteous law?

I wonder if he would not have repented if man would have obeyed him and done right deeds? I wonder if he would have still destroyed them if they had of done right? Did they have a choice? Enquiring minds want to know!

Can and does God respond to men?

The calvinists have God in a very small box and he is not allowed to be any bigger than they say he can be. The calvinists are SOVERIEGN over god!

 

[drstevej]

I wonder if God really did repent and if he was truly grieved at his heart for the manner his creation treated his righteous law?

Strange definition of repent. Proxy repentance? Bet the LDS would even find that unusual.

 

[drstevej]

The calvinists have God in a very small box and he is not allowed to be any bigger than they allow him to be. The calvinists are SOVERIEGN over God!

Do you mean an insult by the lower case here? Just curious.

And your understanding of Calvinism here is as bizarre as any I have heard in 30 years.